Varian Wrynn is Right, Part III

Varian is often said to be "emo," or to have a lack of restraint or a violent temper. First of all, given all of the events outlined in the previous parts of this article, it's hard to call him unjustified. Secondly, he has in actuality, shown a great amount of restraint, civility, and wisdom in his dealings with the Horde until recently.
Varian has actually tried, in good faith, to participate in Peace talks with the Horde. When he was first captured and enslaved by Rethgar Earthfury, one of Thrall's most trusted advisers, he was on his way to a peace conference. When he regained his throne, he agreed to attend that same peace conference (This is depicted in the Warcraft comic series).
Thrall walked into that Peace conference wielding the symbols of Office of Orgrim Doomhammer, the man who killed Anduin Lothar, and Varian abode. Thrall walked into that Peace conference alongside Rethgar Earthfury, an Orc who participated in a massive slave ring that enslaved Alliance citizens and forced them to fight to the Death, an Orc who had enslaved Varian himself in this manner, and Varian abode. Despite the injustices heaped on him, Varian was willing to talk peace after all.
What broke the camel's back was a scenario that was tailor made to evoke his first encounter with the Horde. Garona, the same assassin who killed his father under the auspices of the Horde, came to finish the job. Given the setup, it was hardly a massive leap of logic for Varian to assume the Horde was behind it again. He may have been wrong in this case, but the circumstantial evidence for it was not insignificant. If the Horde used Garona to kill his father, it's not much of a leap to think the same Horde might be looking to kill him as well.
Again during the Ulduar Cinematic, while Varian did not appreciate Thrall's presence, he did not immediately teleport away. It was Garrosh who escalated, insulting Varian and his people to his face. Even then, when Varian challenged him, he did not take the first strike. That was Garrosh. Varian, despite all the injustices heaped upon him and his people, did not completely rule out dealing with the Horde until Garrosh attacked him viciously while Thrall stood by impotently.
Far from having an uncontrollable temper, Varian Wrynn has acted with relative restraint and calm. He has simply finally been pushed too far by a Horde that has rebuffed his every attempt to understand them.
On the "Yes, But..." Arguments
There are many Horde Apologists who will, upon hearing some of the above arguments, admit that the Horde may not be the best of neighbors to the Alliance at times. However, many of them then follow this admittance up with a "But."
There are two major "Buts." The first is that Thrall is working for peace even if the Horde is sometimes rowdy. The second is that the Horde and the Alliance must unite to face larger enemies, or everyone will die, and any Horde or Alliance wars should be put off until then.
Again, events suggest that neither excuse really stands up. Thrall has talked, but has taken very little legitimate action to stop the onslaught of the Horde. He has not attempted to withdraw the Warsong Clan from Ashenvale, nor did he monitor his allies, not balking at the torture and imprisonment of Mu'ru (whether that was destined or not, it was still morally reprehensible for the Blood Elves to have done it) or the actions of the Forsaken in Northern Lordaeron and Ashenvale, where they killed and enslaved the spirits of innocent sleeping Druids.
He has also apparently not done anything significant to stop the spread of Slavery in the Horde, and the organization that enslaved Varian has a base in Orgrimmar where they even keep stolen Alliance artifacts such as the belt of Lothar. In fact, one of the greatest patrons of the organization, Rethgar Earthfury, is now one of Thrall's most trusted advisers. Contrast this to the Alliance's now-defunct gladiator system as depicted in Arthas: Blackmoore was kept under careful watch and was not trusted by Tereneas or Arthas, and Thrall was revealed to be the only slave gladiator, the others all voluntarily fighting for fame and glory, and only rarely to the death if at all.
Thrall is ostensibly trying to teach his people to have pride in themselves and their heritage, but the heritage he is offering is still stained in the trappings of the old genocidal Horde, such as their honoring of bloodlust and war criminals such as Grom and Orgrim (Whom Thrall even evokes at the end of the Battle of the Undercity. When Thrall asks how Grom and Orgrim would react at these events, all I can think is that they'd join Garrosh in calling for all out battle on the Alliance, if their past actions are any indication).
When his people take these ideals too far, which is very easy to do and happens very often, Thrall is silent. For example, He has done nothing to reign in Garrosh aside from one aborted duel that Garrosh was close to winning. Garrosh has sabotaged peace with the Alliance at every possible opportunity, even before the events of the Wrathgate, and afterwards, has continued to prod and provoke. Saurfang is forced to counter what he can of Garrosh's recklessness in secret. In short, Thrall is silent on the crimes of his people. The Alliance and Varian have every right to see him as a Hypocrite.
"Yes, But" and Putting Aside Differences
The other "Yes, But" argument is that the Horde and the Alliance should put aside their differences to fight the larger challenges. The problem with that is that asking the Alliance to ally with the Horde is, at the moment, essentially identical to asking them to ally with the Twilight's Hammer, the Scarlet Crusade, or the Blackrock Orcs. The Horde has dedicated themselves to fighting and wiping out the Alliance in nearly every corner of Azeroth once again. Even when the Alliance tries to focus their attacks on the "real" threats, the Horde stabs them in the back, such as at the Broken Front, where the Horde Warriors proudly boast of ambushing and killing the Alliance as they fought the Scourge.
In Northern Lordaeron, in Northrend, and in Ashenvale, the RAS is clearly dedicated to destroying the Alliance, killing them by poisoning. Their stated intent is the wiping out of all life. The Warsong clan is dedicated to "taming" Ashenvale, and will kill as many Night Elves as they need to to do it. These are no longer minor skirmishes or disagreements, if they ever were. The Alliance body count in skirmishes with the Horde rises by the day, and most of these skirmishes are Horde-instigated, and happened before the Wrathgate.
To say the Alliance should simply let bygones be bygones does not work, especially after the Broken Front. The Horde have proven that they will strike at any time, and will do their best to destroy the Alliance. The Scourge or the Burning Legion or Malygos may destroy Azeroth, but the Horde will destroy the Alliance. Either way the end result for the members of the Alliance is the same - they have died painfully and gone extinct as a race. There is very little incentive for the Alliance to declare peace anymore, and I have yet to hear Rhonin, Jaina, or anyone else in favor of "peace" give a solid enough answer that Varian should be expected to listen to.
On the Future
In short, painting Varian as an "emo" or an irrational grudge holder is a very simplistic view that ignores the repeated and unwarranted aggression the Horde, both the "Old" and "New" versions, have shown to the Alliance. At this point, it is obvious to me that Varian is not declaring a new war against the Horde as much as he is finally committing the Alliance to the one that is already there, fighting back against the Horde in a way no other Alliance leader has so far.
I do not believe that Blizzard's Lore team is ignorant of the things I have outlined above, nor do I believe Varian is headed to a career as an unforgivable Villain, at least not because of the current Horde-Alliance conflict. This one is actually pretty well justified.
But here is what I believe needs to happen:
Thrall either needs to find his backbone, or step aside. Garrosh will continue to flex his power, and he will continue to attract followers who believe in the Bloody, Proud, arrogant Horde that Thrall has inadvertently fostered through misplaced hero worship of the War criminals and symbols of the Old Horde. Saurfang, who speaks out against arrogance and has repeatedly expressed his regret for the crimes his people committed in the first and second wars, but still carries an air of nobility and fierceness, should be the true new model for the Horde.
In fact, Saurfang should be the leader of the New Horde if Thrall doesn't clean up his act, and fast. If Thrall does clean up his act and depose Garrosh, insist Sylvanas disband the RAS and stop any biological warfare programs, and pull out of Ashenvale, he should still use Saurfang's attitude as the new target for the Orcish outlook on life.
Varian himself will continue to lead the Alliance successfully, and will gain some solid victories against the Horde. He will perhaps see some examples of noble Horde who properly understand the tragic history of the Orcs, and learn to respect them. Perhaps the Orc will be Saurfang himself.
At this point, Thrall should hopefully be ready to repent. If Thrall genuinely comes in peace and offers legitimate concessions to the Alliance, I believe Varian will be able to talk peace legitimately. But at this point, the Horde has committed far too many crimes for them to demand anything approaching equal terms or status quo antebellum. If nothing else, it will teach the Horde a valuable lesson in humility.
Of course, Blizzard's Lore Team generally manages to surprise, sometimes pleasantly, sometimes not so pleasantly. But at this point, I do think the Horde and Alliance conflict is playing out this way for a reason, and in the end, I believe Varian will be a legitimate hero of the Alliance, and a legitimate "Good Guy." His reputation in the current conflict among much of the player base is far from deserved, and I encourage everyone to think about it and understand that he has a very solid outlay of reasons to be fed up with the Horde, and he's given them more than a fair shake all told.
Varian Wrynn is right, and unless Thrall grows a backbone soon, the Horde is headed right back into their old ways.
Filed under: Horde, Alliance, Analysis / Opinion, Lore, NPCs






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 20)
Ichigo Apr 26th 2009 4:10PM
Wrynn is only right to the extent that Hellscream Jr. is an idiot. He basically is blinded by hate and can't see anything but the bad ol' ebil whorde.
Wrynn and Hellscream are opposite sides of the same coin.
Ozimandas Apr 26th 2009 4:31PM
You haven't really read anything Daniel just wrote have you?
There's whole sections written to point out that even the new Horde has been extremely aggressive against the Alliance and that for this reason Varian must retaliate.
You must also take in consideration that Varian isn't a telepath, he can't know about all the internal politics of the Horde and separate the bad Horde from the good (Saurfang, Thrall) Horde when all he is presented is the Horde's evil.
muffin_of_chaos Apr 26th 2009 4:46PM
No, the Horde has Not been "extremely aggressive." Had they been, the Alliance would probably be extinguished from the planet.
Anyway, Wrynn isn't extra-impulsive or emo or whatever. He's just stupid.
Thrall has a much, MUCH harder job than Wrynn. The Alliance are extremely easy to control, just ask Onyxia. Let's see what Thrall has to do...
1) Reign in the long-held traditions of extreme violence and
barbarism of the trolls
2) Somehow marshal the Forsaken's energies towards fighting for what is right, which he Succeeds In Doing despite the fact that they are Undead and want to kill everyone; the fact that they kill a few living people now and then for experiments only means they aren't waging war on the Alliance and inflicting
incredibly massive casualties, which they would do without Thrall (and may someday do, but until then Thrall's the only barrier between them)
3) Forget the fact that he has had to watch ALL of his people suffer for years in internment camps
4) Rule the orcs, who have only known war and bloodlust, thinking of Azerothians as their enemies, for dozens of years
5) Get the whole Horde to fight for the greater good and put aside their differences with the Alliance, which to a large part he does, somehow putting in an equal share of the burden of saving the entire world--that isn't yet truly their own
Thrall has been so successful, it's freaking AMAZING, and when he fails at all, such as when he's betrayed by the Forsaken, he Takes It Personally.
If Varian wasn't Stupid, he would not expect the Horde to be like an ancient alliance of civilized races, would see how little the New Horde has actually attacked the Alliance since Thrall started leading it, and see that Thrall tries to quell the manifestation of the New Horde's old feelings--Garrosh.
Varian wants open war with the New Horde, costing countless lives, rather than letting Thrall continue to try to get the Horde into a new shape, which takes time and will cost very, very few lives comparatively.
So Varian's just very shortsighted, very arrogant, and very stupid.
Dah Apr 26th 2009 4:56PM
Varian is blinded by anger. Just because he's had a lot of bad things happen to him doesn't change the complex reality of the situation:
Garona WAS mind controlled, even if he didn't see that.
The Alliance won't solve their problems with the Horde in an all-out war (history has proven this many times over).
Being insulted doesn't give you the right to try and kill someone in the middle of Dalaran.
Even if Varian could somehow overthrow Thrall, do you really think the Alliance would be any better at governing the remainder of the Horde? Or should they just commit mass genocide as he seems to want to do instead?
Kassu Apr 26th 2009 4:58PM
Varian is only right in his own mindset. Just as every other character.
Blizzard created the Alliance and the Horde in WoW not as "Goodies" and "Baddies", but as two opposing factions, with nothing painted in black and white. Both have suffered, both have done evil.
At least Thrall is trying to actually make a difference. It's just that his efforts remain futile because of ignorant thugs such as Hellscream and Wrynn.
You cannot say that one side is worse than the other. Nor can you say that someone like Wrynn is right, just because he has suffered. Everyone has suffered...
Outis Apr 26th 2009 6:03PM
It is ridiculous for the author to consider Varian Wrynn justified for holding the actions of the Old Horde against Thrall's Horde. The Old Horde was not the orcs, it was the Burning Legion using the orcs as a weapon against Azeroth. Furthermore, you are incorrect in asserting that the orcs had no reason to invade Azeroth - if you read Rise of the Horde, it's shown that Draenor began to die after the Horde drank the blood of Mannoroth. The new Horde is rooted in the orcs' ancestral customs of shamanism, and uses the symbols of their heritage as the incredibly cliche "noble savages." The old Horde also used many of those symbols, but it's ridiculous to assert that because there's cultural continuity, they are TEH EBILS.
Doomhammer and Hellscream are properly venerated as heroes, not for what they did in the First and Second Wars, but for who they were before Ner'zhul was tempted by the Legion and who they were after the curse of lethargy set in post-Second War. Doomhammer helped liberate his people from the internment camps so that they could leave human lands forever and go find their own home. Grom Hellscream did a terrible thing in Ashenvale, but then sacrificed himself to free the orcs from their curse forever.
Yes, the Horde and the Alliance spar in a number of places throughout the old world. But I see your Warsong Gulch and raise you an Alterac Valley - the dwarves came in to where the Frostwolves had been living since before the Second War and attacked them instead of negotiating rights of exploration. Additionally, Tarren Mill's atrocities were carried out by Forsaken who were in bed with Varimathras (figuratively, I can only hope).
The essential problem I see is that people see the Alliance and how unified of purpose each faction is. There aren't renegade Ironforge dwarves, renegade gnomes, renegade humans, renegade nelves (though Fandral is an ass), or renegade draenei. Every evil member of the alliance races is pretty much killable at some point. But the Horde is incredibly fragmented. The Grimtotem Tauren want to conquer Kalimdor, and Magatha is pretty strongly hinted to be down with that. There's a huge faction of orcs who have lok'tar ogar on the brain and refuse to understand how victory can be attained without killing a lot of people. The Forsaken are pretty much held together politically by their bitterness, with an increasingly weak minority trying to, you know, get past the whole "death to everyone who was mean to me" thing. And Thrall has to put up with this, purging only when he can, because the Horde does not have the weight of years behind this whole civilization thing that the Alliance does. Without compromise, the entire social order will collapse and the Horde will dissolve into a fragmented barbaric mess. He can't put Garrosh in his place because he cannot possibly deal with a civil war. Sylvanas may be his ally, or may have been manipulating him all along. The blood elves finally got over their collective angst toward the Light, but the M'uru situation can't have made him happy.
Thrall's weakness as a leader comes from the fact that he's a sucker for redemption. Tabetha redeemed humans in his eyes, as did Tirion's actions for Eitrigg. Grom alternated between being monster and hero before finally doing one of the most heroic things an orc has ever done (engaging a pit lord in single combat AND WINNING? holy shiz). The Forsaken and belves, both rejected by their former friends among the Alliance, came to him as a last resort. Thrall refuses to give up on anyone because he was given up on for his entire growth to adulthood, and it was only by Tabetha's kindness that he escaped slavery. This means that he trusts people he maybe shouldn't (Magatha, Sylvanas maybe), but also means that he can bring out the greatness in people. The Alliance is all about the status quo, about people who were lucky enough to be born among civilization - the Horde is about challenging yourself and others to be greater than your past has defined you, creating civilization out of barbarism and savagery.
Now and forever - Lok'tar ogar!
F. Somalia Apr 26th 2009 9:13PM
@Outis: Thank you, you put me to tears. That's what it means to be the Horde
Alc Apr 26th 2009 10:24PM
@ muffin_of_chaos:
"No, the Horde has Not been "extremely aggressive." Had they been, the Alliance would probably be extinguished from the planet."
They almost were. The only reason they weren't was because the Horde's aggression turned on itself and destroyed it's momentum.
2.) Thrall 'might' have a bigger job to do, but he's not doing it. He allows the 'new' horde to act like the old one. He allies himself with undead who are practically the scourge but with a bit more thought. I mean really, how is marshalling the forsaken a good quality?
3.) You're right, he wasn't born when the horde slaughtered the members of the alliance.
4.) Yes, they only know war and bloodlust. This brought on by themselves and having enemies they created themselves.
5.) Put aside the differences with the alliance? that would imply they stopped attacking them.
"the entire world -- that isn't yet truly their own" Soooo... you're saying you want the original inhabitants to be wiped out? What then; do what they did to Draenor?
The alliance and the horde are already at open war. All Wrynn did was put a name on it. Should Wrynn really just sit aside while his people die? Who says that Thrall will get the horde into shape? It doesn't seem as if he's done anything except make them another war machine.
@ Dah:
Garona was mind controlled by a faction of the horde. A faction allowed to exist by the horde leaders. The horde, being an army that was already trying to wipe out the alliance.
If you're saying that war has solved nothing, I might direct you to a history book.
You're not, being insulted doesn't give someone the right to kill them. Being attacked by an official directly under the warchief does give you the right to defend yourself.
Under the alliance's 'control' as you put it, stopped the horde from rampaging across azeroth. Given it's history it probably could 'control' the horde better than Thrall.
@ Kassu:
Blizzard actually did create the alliance and horde as goodies and baddies. Then it retconned things. And yes, I can say that one side is better than the other.
@ Outis:
The author is looking at the new and old horde's actions. Whose in charge doesn't seem to matter (whether it be Thrall or the Burning Legion). Orcs will rampage given a weapon. The orcs could have found a planet that didn't have didn't have natives already.
Doomhammer and Hellscream are still symbols of the old horde.
Alterac Valley did not belong to the frostwolves. Nothing belong to the orcs.
If Wrynn could be blamed for anything, it was that he temporarily allied with the Horde. If you're talking about status quo, then you should consider the horde's status quo as well. While both factions vie for survival, the horde are the ones that actively seek fight with others (and each other) while the alliance tends to only end up defending itself. Wrynn is somewhat a representation of horde thinking and is essentially a creation of the orcs.
Outis Apr 27th 2009 12:44AM
@Alc
The Orcs were brought to Azeroth by Medivh, not through the power of the orcs themselves (though they helped, by providing the magical structure on their end that would hold the spells in place). The Burning Legion corrupted them on Draenor so Sargeras-in-Medivh could bring them to Azeroth. If that seems like an awful lot of work for one crummy little world, remember - the orcs were originally KJ's weapon of revenge against the draenei, and the Burning Legion has a major grudge against Azeroth for being one of (if not the only) world to successfully beat back an invasion. Yes, the orcs were wrong in accepting warlock magic in the first place, and in drinking the blood of Mannoroth. But from that point forward, the vast majority of orcs were operating as tools of the Burning Legion.
Yes, they're symbols of the old Horde. But they're also symbols of the new Horde, in the same way that George Washington is a symbol both of the Seven Years' War (as an agent of Britain) and of the American war for independence.
Uh, ~thirty years of living there says otherwise. They took land that nobody was using (because it was so hostile and crappy nobody wanted it) and carved out a life there for at least a generation (possibly two, orcs mature faster than humans). They owned the land by right of possession, just the same way the Night Elves had claim to Ashenvale.
What I mean by status quo is that the Alliance, to a race, are all creatures of privilege, species with years of civilization and culture behind them. The humans, the night elves, the dwarves, the gnomes, and the draenei all have been civilized for hundreds if not thousands of years. They therefore have interest in preserving their place of power (well, the draenei are somewhat an exception because they're newcomers to this plane of existence, but they don't participate as passionately in the Alliance/Horde conflict as do the humans, night elves, and dwarves). The orcs, on the other hand, have been demon-free for like a decade, tops, and have been cut off from their homeworld entirely (we can actually blame the draenei for this - if the draenei hadn't fled to Draenor, the Legion wouldn't have turned them into the Horde and they would never have invaded Azeroth), so they took the barren wastelands of Kalimdor and the Eastern continent. The tauren were driven from their ancestral homes by marauding centaur and were on the verge of extinction before Thrall lent them a hand. Ditto for the Darkspear, except replace "centaur" with "other jungle trolls that practiced much darker magic". The Forsaken and blood elves should be in the Alliance, but were rebuffed and Thrall was their next best option. They're all trying to find their own way, and the Alliance (for various reasons) doesn't want to let them, or wants to see them marginalized in the same way harpies, gnolls, kobolds, and centaur are marginalized.
What separates the Horde from the barbaric races I just mentioned is this: they're trying. Thrall set aside nomadism and hunter-gatherer life for his orcs because he correctly saw that such a strategy would shatter his people instead of unify them. Both tauren and orcs, traditionally nomadic, are becoming settled and civilized. The trolls have given up voodoo and cannibalism. The blood elves have seen rather dramatically the perils of demon magic and are reconciled with the Light once more. The Forsaken are currently the faction of the Horde against whose morality you can argue most, but I suspect we'll see further development this expansion. It's against Blizzard's character to pigeonhole an entire race to be evil, so I bet we'll see more civil strife between the RAS (and possibly Sylvanas) and the "Hey, genocide is just Not Cool" Forsaken.
The Alliance, on the other hand, kind of reminds me of Harry Potter. They believe they have the moral high ground, so they can do whatever they want. The night elves, attacking newcomers to their forests who cut down trees without saying "oh hey, stop that" first (not to mention the whole, you know, causing the Burning Legion to attack Azeroth in the first place thing). The humans, telling the Stonemason guild to bugger off. The dwarves, waltzing into Frostwolf territory like they had more of a right to be there then the people who'd been living there for decades. The draenei never told the orcs that they were running from a powerful demonic threat - if they had, the orcs would have been on alert for tomfoolery and would never have fallen under the sway of the Legion in the first place. Instead, the Alliance just does their thing, smug in their own misplaced sense of superiority.
I'm not disputing that the Horde has a lot of barbarism, a lot of savagery, a lot of bad crap going on. But Alliance supporters seem to take the existence of fault as conclusive proof that the Horde needs to go. Have they considered that the Horde, as run by Thrall, is an unambiguous positive influence on the darker sides of its member races cultures? It brings them all civilization, order, and support.
Varian Wrynn can suck it. He wants to tar everyone with the same brush. He and Thrall went through very similar experiences, but where Thrall came out with compassion and a desire to redeem, Wrynn came out with hatred and a desire for vengeance. Wrynn is not evil - I'd actually go so far as to call him virtuous.
What he is, however, is intolerant.
BeeEss Apr 27th 2009 3:59AM
There are some players that don't want any semblance of peace between Alliance and Horde.
I, for one, would be happy without a single iota of understanding.
Let the foolishness, the blood-stained past, and the hot-headed leaders pour more fuel into the war-engines! It's fine by me, because I picked up this RPG to do just that, play a role...
And my role is to be a hated enemy of the Alliance.
So, I love the conflict, and I want the hatred to flare up even hotter, to a point beyond all reconciliation.
Tuhljin Apr 27th 2009 7:55AM
"At least Thrall is trying to actually make a difference."
Yeah, the same way the U.N. tries to make a difference. Asking people nicely. Maybe a strongly worded letter on occasion. Hint: That doesn't work when dealing with genocidal maniacs, and if you don't think the Forsaken are lead by genocidal maniacs, you didn't read the article. In fact, Thrall's much worse than the U.N., as he actually openly ALLIES with the genocidal maniacs.
TheOriginalDragonLady May 13th 2009 12:55AM
As usual, pro-Horde are quick to jump to the "Wrynn is just as childish as the people who play Alliance/just as evil as Thrall/fel orcs/Burning Legion, etc" arguement. Really. Would you like a new crop to beat that dead horse of yours?
While the vast majority of Alliance are played by kids and teens, the facts of the Lore cannot be ignored. I was overjoyed to see the Alliance no longer led by a level 5 Prince, and with such a historically powerful figurehead once more at the reigns of the kingdom. I cried when Bolvar died (as in the three years + I've been playing this game, he was a firmiliar sight in the Keep while levelling my alts), as I'm sure a lot of other people did too (but as most of the ratio of the gender who play this game are guys, most will never admit it). The Wrathgate cutscene was by far the best one to date ever done..and when the Forsaken took responsibility for the entire ordeal, I almost /deleted every Horde toon I had (Almost..lol..And trust me I have several).
I have seen Varian dead in the Keep as a result of a Horde raid only one time in the time he's been back. Once. I've seen Thrall die more than once (and been a part of it several times). I've also watched 25-30 well-geared Alliance successfully route a 50-man-strong Horde raid on Darnassus (City Defender ftw). It seems that Lore translates to gameplay on a greater level than people realize (Especially given it's harder to kill Vul'Jin most times than Thrall).
Give me my "immature kids", my "emo" King, and my bloodstained, heartbreaking Alliance history. I'll take them over a no-backboned wanna-be "Warchief" and his back-stabbing band of warmongering misfits any day of the week. One of these days, Thrall is going to learn that with so much bad blood concerning the Horde's history with the Alliance, being the only one willing to take the high road when it comes to some means of compromise is hopeless when you have so many who are digging a sinkhole under your feet.
It's only a matter of time before the ground falls out from under him, and the people he trusted chew him to pieces. And there is only so many times that Thrall can rely on Varian's capacity for humanity before he runs out of chances.
Pro-Horde are also saying a lot of "Oh Alliance are just holding them accountable still for stuff they did in the past" and "Oh, there's been several times Alliance have instigated attacks on Horde.."...You're right they are. After a few dozen times of having to be reactive, you learn to be proactive. Horde had innumberal chances to start fresh with Varian. At LEAST three times, they failed to do so. I'd be hostile too.
Medivh < Orgrim, Grom, Garrosh, Sylvanas, Rethgar. One human, five non-Alliance races. Yeah.
I get the feeling if Horde ever wants to have any kind of relative peace with the Alliance, they're going to have to learn what boundaries are, and figure out how to fight the Scourge without "mistakingly" shoving a dagger in the backs of the people trying to help them. It's pretty obvious that Arthas isn't exactly an easy-going sort of guy.."Oh, you guys sort your warfare with each other out, I'll just stay here in Northrend and busy myself finding more ways to kill you all.."
Kylenne Apr 26th 2009 4:23PM
...and all of that completely ignores the fact that even though Wrynn may be justified in his hatred of the Horde, he's a shitty king, and will always be a shitty king until he starts ruling with his brain instead of from his scabbard. It's also ignoring the fact that there's a war going on. God help me for agreeing with Rhonin Sue, but this is not the time for us to be bringing up this old Alliance vs. Horde nonsense, not with Arthas breathing down our necks.
I'm not really sure how you can excuse all of Wrynn's stupid, rash behavior when he is acting exactly like Garrosh, whom you (and even we "Horde apologists" as you put it) are rightfully lambasting. When his lust for vengeance is really no different than Sylvanas'. Everything up to this point, including the Ulduar trailer, is setting Varian and Garrosh up as equal and opposing douchebags who are screwing up everything for everyone. Both sides would be well rid of both of them. Wrynn is no more right than Hellscream is.
And, say what you will, at the very least there are voices for calm and reason in the New Horde: Saurfang, Thrall, etc. People who are at least trying to make a token effort towards calming Garrosh the hell down. That Wrynn is basically operating unchecked is a testament to how feckless and useless the Alliance "leadership" is. Jaina is the only one trying to talk any sense into him. It's not like the Alliance is lacking in calm, wise leaders--what about Velen? Where the hell is Tyrande in all this? Yes, she can be hotheaded, but she knows the value of putting aside past differences to work on a common goal, (hello, setting Illidan free much?).
I think a lot of the tendency to excuse Wrynn's actions stems from a deepseated need for dynamic leadership in the Alliance. Up to this point there just hasn't been any, and now that there's someone out front representing Alliance and actually doing something, you're willing to write off everything he does as "for a good reason!" Uh, no, sorry. As much as Alliance apologists try to say so, the New Horde still are not the villains of this game, despite the BS we're dealing with in our ranks.
Fizzl Apr 26th 2009 6:59PM
This ^ but it doesn't cover the forsaken and since that's me I'll continue.
Ignore for a moment that we are zombies, that we are using (rather effective) chemical and biological warfare and think for a moment who were we?
The forsaken are the remains of the Stratholme, Andorhal, Lordaeron and all the other humans and highelf of the north. We are fighting humans in this area because it is our land and they attacked us in it. We survived the Scurges plague weapon and took back out home only to find squatters on our doorstep and our former friends and family attacking us on site.
Back to the plague weapons, well we are playing to our strengths. This is our 'nuclear deterrent' and is it is designed to be used against our enemies and the invaders to our lands. I also suspect attitudes have changes slightly after wrath gate just as attitudes towards nuclear weapons changed after Hiroshima. You may have notices we still have quite a lot of nuclear weapons because they are very effective, the forsaken have there plague weapons for the same reason.
Death to the living? They don't really mean that they are just lumping 'the living' into a category just as humans view all undead as part of the scourge. To put it another way this isn't much different from the US saying death to the commies during the cold war.
Sure the forsaken are by no means good much like every other player race (I'd like to point out that gnomes managed to irradiate most of there population and cause the leper gnome outbreak in case anyone thought they were cute :P ). You are however probably better of with us than against us, as well as perfecting the forsaken stain we are also working on cures and helping restore the ravaged lands of our allies. We do tend to get wrapped up in the whole 'for the greater good' concept a bit much.
I also suspect Arthas wont be going down to an alliance or horde guild without the help of the plague weapon at some point. Sylvannas and a lot of the forsaken doesn't really care about anything other than getting revenge and taking down the Lich King, that is what the RAS is really about even if it doesn't advertise the fact. RAS serves Sylvannas and she wants revenge, everything else is just a means to an end. She realises that revenge wont come without a strong power base and weapons hence the reasons for retaking the area around Lordaeron and the various activities of the RAS.
Rhonin and the Argent Dawn are going to force Varian to deal with the Horde again at some point because as much of a massacre as wrath gate was it did prove one thing... the weapon works, even against the Lich King.
Alc Apr 26th 2009 10:44PM
@ Kylenne:
How is he a shitty king? There has always been a war in 'warcraft'. Wrynn just sees the Horde as a threat, which it is.
If anything, Wrynn's mistake was to trust the horde. War and rampage is all the orcs know. Eventually it would come back to bite him and it did. Saying that the buck stops here, does not make him a bad king. If anything it shows him as stronger than Thrall or Sylvanis since the two allowed (and sometimes encouraging) traiters in their midst.
Sylvanas wants to destroy all life. Thats more than revenge.
How does calm solve the problems of the alliance or the horde? Wrynn is being an effective leader while Thrall is practically a puppet, unable to control his right hand and establishing him in the first place.
How is anything you're saying anything more than speculation or opinion. Use some examples.
@ Fizzl:
The humans you're fighting owns the land as well. Undead attacked them first. Saying that they attacked the forsaken first is ridiculous.
Creating a plague that wipes you out too, isn't playing to your strengths. Its the equivilent of creating nukes to wipe out the world. As for a change in attitude, your still having the forsaken wanting to wipe out life and you still have the plague and it's original intentions. I can't say with certainty, but it wouldn't seem likely that Sylvanis would just get rid of it all.
"Death to the Living" is spoken by all forsaken npcs. It's mission is repeated many times in quest dialog and books. There isn't much room for you to move around here.
You reference one gnome. With the orcs, its practically the entire species. And .. yeah.. the whole comment on, "oh we're going to cure the lands after we wipe everyone out" doesn't help your cause.
uh.. why would you assume the lich king will only die by a plague weapon? He's has a corporeal body now. Shoot, even when he was in a thrown he could have been destroyed.
DeathPaladin Apr 27th 2009 12:18AM
I will second Wrynn being a horrible king. While I have defended his stance on certain issues, I cannot bring myself to support him as a faction leader.
Varian Wrynn is a man who can be on the right side of a battle but still be utterly wrong.
This is because I have yet to see anything to indicate that his feud with the Horde is anything but selfishly motivated. Would he have been concerned about the destructiveness of the Old Horde had Stormwind been left untouched? Would he be as adamantly opposed to slavery if he himself was not enslaved? Perhaps, perhaps not. But his tendency to throw temper tantrums do not give me a great amount of confidence in his altruism, or lack thereof.
He may have had a rough life, but that is no excuse for his behavior. He may be a lore-rich character, but that does not make him a good leader.
Kylenne Apr 27th 2009 4:51AM
@ Alc: Good kings don't escalate a conflict with a crucial ally at the doorstep of a mutual foe...particularly when said foe has the ability to raise your dead as cannon fodder to then be used against you.
Good kings are not ruled by their emotions, they calm the hell down and wait for all the facts to come in on a given situation before flying off half-cocked on some vigilante mission like this is an episode of the A-Team. Good kings think before they act, something that would probably give Varian an aneurysm.
Varian was so blinded by his CAPS LOCK OF RAGE that he apparently missed the fact that half the corpses on the ground at the Wrathgate were wearing Horde colors, and that while he lost Fordragon, we lost the son of one of our most cherished leaders. Obviously something was amiss, there, and if Captain Emo was remotely paying attention to what was going on--or, hell, listening to Jaina, and probably Alexstrasza too--he would have seen that. Hell, if Varian was at all smart, he'd have been fighting Varimathras in the Undercity alongside those "green skins" instead of showing up a day late and a dollar short and jumping to conclusions, his favorite pasttime.
This guy is going to get half the Alliance killed and the other half doing the Thriller dance in front of Icecrown if he keeps this up, mark my words. If I still played Alliance, I would not be trying to prop him up, I'd be looking for any way possible to get rid of him and set up Jaina as Regent Lord or something.
Warhammer43 Apr 27th 2009 11:07AM
You say the alliance should concentrate on the war with Arthas, when orcs are bragging about slaughtering alliance solders that WERE concentrating on the scourge at the broken front?
Zakurax Apr 27th 2009 5:40PM
@Alc
What makes Wrynn a good leader and Thrall a bad leader?
Thrall has gathered the horde and made it into what it is today.
Wrynn, if nothing els, has just taken over a pretty much working society. I could say so much more, but there is not really any need to.
He is just a puppy?
What makes him more of a puppy then Wrynn?
Wrynn is just another kind of puppy.
A pitbul that bites, instead of a labrador who sees the best in everyone and accept them for who they are.
Without Thrall the horde would not be today.
The taurens would have died and the centaurs would probably be slaughtering the NEs in Ashenvale.
If you read up on the lore, everyone drank the demon blood except one. (If I remember correctly)
I am 100% sure that Wrynn and many of the previous alliance leaders would have accepted the pitlords blood aswell. (If you think about their personality.)
So what makes them better then the previous orcs.
So they made 1 bad mistake that led to a lot of bad things.
You say that they are savage because they fought among themselves. What did the humans do before if I might add?
When it comes to the forsaken. They had to fight off some humans in order for themselves to survive. So kind of a self defence.
They were attacked by humans on sight anyways and could not talk things through with them. Maybe join them.
All of their previous family, friends and other did not want anything to do with them.
Would you not try to kill those who tried to kill you?
No wonder they want death to the living.
The orcs were driven of their land BECAUSE of the demons that wanted to get revenge on the NE and the Dreanor.
Do the orcs have reason to hate the humans?
If we are going to look at how the author of this article wrote and do the same with the humans.
Who helped the orc go through the dark portal?
Medivh!
He was controlled by Sargeras. But the horde was controlled by the legion as well.
So the human race was actually destroying itself. A human decided to kill sargeras and get a kid, just as some orcs decided that everyone should drink the demon blood.
When we first are looking very narrow at it. Should not the dwarfs, gnomes, night elves, blood elves, taurens, trolls, orcs, dreanor (and what ever race i might have forgotten) hate the humans because of Arthas?
That alone takes away most of the dmg the orcs did by FAR.
You could also blame that one the orcs because of one single person. But because he was dead when he did it, he already counts as scourge.
SO the orcs and the rest of the mortal races has a better reason for hating the humans then the orcs.
The humans made camps for the orcs. Kind of like what Hitler did with the jews.
Thrall should really hate the humans, but he doesn't.
Thrall knows the corruption inside of the horde and tries to do something with it.
As one of the horde quests with RFC proves.
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Except for that I agree with many of the above posts that you looked down on Alc.
They had many more valid points then you did. They had LESS speculations then what you had in your posts. And even so you manage to call some of it speculations. The alliance has done just as much wrong as the horde, if not even more.
The horde might have invaded their land, but a human helped out on it. So if you are going to look that narrow on it, they where trying to destroy themselves.
So I will say as you said Alc. I can say that one of them better then the other. For me, that would be the horde.
They have suffered more and are trying to make the best out of it.
The alliance are still judging them from what the demon taint did.
Ofc Wrynn has his reason, but so does the rest of Azeroth.
Do not say the scourge is the legions fault, because so is the orc invasion.
And the orc controlling the scourge is no longer a orc.
Ferarro Apr 26th 2009 4:23PM
This is an amazing article! I wish more people read this instead of making quick comments after seeing mini-machinima from Blizz.