@ Cannedbread

"If Varian Wrynn were right, he would make the decisions that were best for his people. He would negotiate with the Horde, trade Elwynn lumber for Durotar copper, and focus on the Scourge, the Burning Legion, the Old Gods and the Twilight's Hammer, the Naga, the Dark Iron Dwarves, and the Black Dragonflight."
And what are those decisions? You have Garrosh who is itching to conquer Alliance lands and at the Undercity, Varian discovers that Sylvannas has the Apothecary turned into a big poison factory specifically used to target Alliance citizens. What would be the best decision for Varian's people? Maybe you should be asking what Thrall can do to protect Varian's people since he's done a crappy job so far.

"Instead he's hard-headed, he argues with Garrosh and ignores Thrall (Garrosh is an idiot, but that's an entirely different argument) and Jaina. He holds Thrall accountable for the incident at the Wrathgate, despite the equal measure of casualties sustained on both sides, and the fact that there was a full-scale coup in the Undercity."
Who else is he going to hold accountable? At the Wrathgate, a bunch of Thrall's undead allies killed a bunch of his troops and his best friend. At the Undercity he discovers the Forsaken has a big section dedicated to being a poison labratory that's sole purpose is specifically to kill Alliance races and at the Throne Room, Varian sees Thrall handing over the keys to Lordaeron back to the Undead. Who cares if the Horde lost men too. If the Horde isn't doing anything to prevent more Alliance deaths, then Varian will take matters into his own hands.

"I could go on and on, suffice it to say that the current Horde is not Gul'Dan's Horde, it's come very close to being the same in name only. Many people who argue against "Horde Apologists" gloss over the fact that if you ignore demonic influence (just as they do) that the humans are responsible for the current situation with the Scourge, due to the actions of Kel'Thuzad, Arthas, and the Cult of the Damned the whole world of Azeroth is, yet again, in peril."
I could argue that the current Horde is the same as the old Horde, only they aren't slaves to Demonic influence. In WC1, the Horde came to Azeroth to conquer everything. What does Garrosh want to do? Conquer everything. Gul'dan tricked the Horde into believing that demons are their allies and will make them stronger. What does Sylvannas do? Have the Horde take orders from a Dreadlord, accept her people into the Horde, and sanction the creation of a death plague that she intends to use on humanity because like you, she thinks that all humans are like Arthas. Instead of Gul'dan, the Horde now has Sylvannas. Instead of Blackhand, the Horde now has Garrosh. Yeah the Alliance has its assholes, but the Horde's assholes are dangerous assholes that get people killed.

Varian Wrynn is a racist, self-pitying, whiny, overly conflicted imbecile who allows his emotions and mildly-founded personal grudges to control his decision making.

>>>And this racist has held off on war for five years. He has tried to make peace several times.

What happened recently? His troops were killed at the Wrathgate. He finally discovered what the Horde and the Forsaken were doing in undercity - with Sylvanas' blessing. The Brokjen Front showed the Horde less interested in defeating the Scourge than in in defeating the Allaince.

Varian doesn't like the Horde. He probably never has. This is the faction that destroyed his homeland. Killed his father. Marched on Lordaeron. Killed Anduin Lothar. Kept him as a slave and used him in gladiatorial games.

And still he took the path of peace, attending a peace conference where Thrall showed up with Varians slavemaster in tow in a position of honour, and insulting the Alliance by showing how much he honoured those who devastated humanity.

And even after then surviving the Orc led assassination attempt, he once again agreed to work with the Horde at the Wrathgate. And we all saw how that turned out.

No...Varian doesn't like the Horde. Can't blame him.

But these mildly founded personal grudges are being kidnapped into slavery, being forced to fight for his life, seeing his father, guardian and best friend dead at Horde hands, his kingdom destroyed, his people massacred and finding out the Forsakens agenda for humanity. You know..."Death to the Living" is not a warcry that Sylvanas disapproves of.

And that is on top of 5 years of a Horde invasion of Ashenvale, Orc encroachment on Dwarven lands and the Forsaken engaging in a war of conquest against the Alliance, during which time he kept the peace, such as it was.

At what point does he get to act in the interest of his people and allies without being seen as an imbecile or emo? Obviously, finding out the Forsaken have been conducting biological experiments on humanity for the past five years isn't enough. Nor is seeing the invasions of Arathi Basin, Warsong Gulch or the valleys of Alterac.

At what point is it OK for him to respond to Horde aggression? Or is it best if he just continues to hold back, as he has doen for the past 6 years or so and let the Horde overrun humanity again?

And please - the "work together to defeat a common enemy" routine got old when the Horde wiped out Alliance forces doing just that.





If Varian Wrynn were right, he would make the decisions that were best for his people. He would negotiate with the Horde, trade Elwynn lumber for Durotar copper, and focus on the Scourge, the Burning Legion, the Old Gods and the Twilight's Hammer, the Naga, the Dark Iron Dwarves, and the Black Dragonflight.


>>>>Apparently, the Horde doesn't need lumber. They are leaving it to rot in Ashenvale. As for the rest...Varian and the Alliance have tried to work with the Horde. They have tried to concentrate on the "common foe". As to the results - have you been to the Broken Front yet?




Instead he's hard-headed, he argues with Garrosh and ignores Thrall (Garrosh is an idiot, but that's an entirely different argument) and Jaina. He holds Thrall accountable for the incident at the Wrathgate, despite the equal measure of casualties sustained on both sides, and the fact that there was a full-scale coup in the Undercity.

>>>And Thrall helped Sylvanas get her city back. This is the Queen who pushed forwrad the developemnt of the new plague, who approves of the Death to the Living message. Who has condoned experimentation on Alliance citizens. Who has actively engaged in warfare with the Alliance, in Silverpine, Hillsbrad, Southshore, Arathor and Tarren Mill. And who was advised up until recently by a dreadlord.

I'm failing to see any reason why Varian should be glad Thrall handed Undercity back to another butcher of humanity.

Thrall made a mistake in accepting the Forsaken into the Horde. He has compounded that mistake by his failure to actually reign in the more warlike elements of his people - those who actually miss the Horde of old.

I can't believe that you're being serious.


Sports72Xtrm, you claim that the current Horde is identical to the demonic Horde, obviously you've never even encountered this thing called "lore", in this "lore" the demonic horde is distinctly nomadic, bloodthirsty, and destructive, not to mention that they worshiped demons. The current Horde is not nomadic, it's reverted back to shamanism, the orcs have a main city now, they have pig farms, they moved out of the Eastern Kingdoms to a desert so that they wouldn't conflict as much with humans. Sylvanas and the Forsaken were betrayed by Varimithras and Grand Apothecary Putress, don't tell me you've never heard of humans betraying their allies under the influence of a dreadlord *COUGH-SCARLET CRUSADE-COUGH*. Varian is making decisions that are bad for his people by refusing to negotiate with Thrall. That's right, that guy, you know
THE LEADER OF THE HORDE. Don't give me that Garrosh shit, Garrosh is an imbecile and he fights with Thrall often, once literally. Thrall is a perfectly reasonable person and if Varian could put aside his blind hatred of orcs for a moment, he'd see that.

Kyrt:

"This racist has held off of war for five years."
What crack are you smoking? Varian has just recently (Patch 3.0 actually) gotten his shit back together, and ever since he's been blaming everything that happens internationally from skirmishes to flatulence on the Horde. His foreign policy is in the vein of the "no negotiating, i'm always right" school of thought, and he lets his anger rule his decision making. If Jaina Proudmoore didn't exist, he and Thrall would be at each other's throats (mutual blame here, it takes two).
The lumber/copper comment was a reference to the WoW comic, in which negotiations between Thrall and Varian are interrupted, and deteriorate because of, an attack by the Twlight's Hammer, and it's metaphorical rather than literal. However, the problem in Ashenvale is the Warsong clan, yet again. Garrosh and the Warsong clan are a recurring internal problem for the Horde and I anticipate the day when either Thrall or High Overlord Saurfang kick the shit out of Garrosh.

One thing that really got me about your reply is your statements about the Undercity. The Undercity is Gnomergan II, it's completely uninhabitable to humans, or pretty much anyone else for that matter, the water seeps with plague (old-school scourge plague, not the new plague). Also, Sylvanas' plague research was (to her knowledge) geared towards creating a potent anti-scourge strategic option.
Your comment about "butchers of humanity" amuses me. You seem to assert that humans are entirely without fault in the greater scheme of things in Azeroth, ignoring the fact that a human, Medivh, was responsible for all of the dark portals, humans (the cult of the damned and kel'thuzad) were the main agents of the Lich King in the destruction of Lordaeron and humans are just as easily manipulated, or as willing, to do evil things as all of the other races on Azeroth, case in point:

Archimonde, Kil'jaeden- eredar/draeni
Illidan, Fandral Staghelm (shut up, he's a villan)- Night Elf
Most notably Zul'Jin, but many others too- Troll
Gul'Dan, Rend Blackhand etc.- Orc
Mekgineer Thermaplugg (okay, not a lot here, but they're GNOMES)-gnome
Scarlet Crusade, Cult of the Damned, Defias, Syndicate, Medivh etc-human
Dark Irons, Irons (despite the subsets, i'm calling these dwarves)-dwarves
The undead list is expansive, but that's expected, the forsaken are the exception, not the rule- Undead
Kael'Thas, Kael'Thas again, Illidari Council, more Kael'Thas-Blood Elves

Honestly, every race in Azeroth has some pretty srs cockups in it's past, Dwarves have the War of the Three Hammers, Night Elves blew the continent in half, Humans have the Cult of the Damned, Orcs were controlled by Demons.

My issue with Varian is that he's a shallow character, he's angry and emotional and racist and that's about it.
I'd be more inclined to like him if he weren't so one-dimensional and didn't attempt to see the world in black and white.

Thrall is a compelling, complex, deep character, Varian is a shallow attempt at a badass with anger issues.

@ CannedBread

"Sports72Xtrm, you claim that the current Horde is identical to the demonic Horde, obviously you've never even encountered this thing called "lore", in this "lore" the demonic horde is distinctly nomadic, bloodthirsty, and destructive, not to mention that they worshiped demons. The current Horde is not nomadic, it's reverted back to shamanism, the orcs have a main city now, they have pig farms, they moved out of the Eastern Kingdoms to a desert so that they wouldn't conflict as much with humans."
I'm just saying it looks similar. Garrosh's orcs are being riled up thinking they can go around and kill or conquer any Alliance they can find and Sylvannas is using the Horde to help her conduct her own genocide against humanity. Garrosh and Sylvannas can lead the Horde to the old ways is what I'm saying.
" Sylvanas and the Forsaken were betrayed by Varimithras and Grand Apothecary Putress, don't tell me you've never heard of humans betraying their allies under the influence of a dreadlord *COUGH-SCARLET CRUSADE-COUGH*. "
Scarlet Crusade are not allies of the Alliance. They are enemies or neutral at best. The Alliance get missions to kill them. As for Sylvannas, it is her plan to use the plague to kill off the living. The only betrayal she suffered is her followers executed her plan early. Read part II of this Article again. That is if you even read all of it in it's entirety the first time.
"Varian is making decisions that are bad for his people by refusing to negotiate with Thrall. That's right, that guy, you know
THE LEADER OF THE HORDE. Don't give me that Garrosh shit, Garrosh is an imbecile and he fights with Thrall often, once literally. Thrall is a perfectly reasonable person and if Varian could put aside his blind hatred of orcs for a moment, he'd see that."
Not negotiate with Thrall? What do you think the co-op at the Wrathgate was about? Varian did negotiate and tried to work with the Horde and that got his soldiers killed at the Wrathgate. There are too many dangerous elements in the Horde that want Alliance blood. If not for Jaina and the Lich King, Varian should have already assaulted the Horde. Instead all he's saying is he's refusing to work with them.
Yeah we know Garrosh is an imbecile. An imbecile that has command of the the Horde armies in Northrend. The Broken Front is what was the result. A bunch of dead Ally soldiers that got ganked by the Horde.
Yeah Thrall fights Garrosh so much that he brings him to diplomatic meetings with faction leaders. I think you need to put aside your blind hate for Varian, and see how Thrall's lack of control over his underlings could become a danger to the Alliance. I'm not saying that the Horde are the bad guys, but they are in danger of being the bad guys.

CannedBread:

The current Horde is not nomadic, it's reverted back to shamanism, the orcs have a main city now, they have pig farms, they moved out of the Eastern Kingdoms to a desert so that they wouldn't conflict as much with humans.
>>>They’ve started conflict with the Night Elves and Dwarves as a substitute.



Sylvanas and the Forsaken were betrayed by Varimithras and Grand Apothecary Putress
>>>And this excuses the creation of a plague to wipe out the living…how? Thralls currently ignoring the issue but Varian isn’t.



Varian is making decisions that are bad for his people by refusing to negotiate with Thrall.
>>>Which is why he made plans to attend at least two peace conferences with Thrall.

If you are referring to the Ulduar trailer….Varian and Thrall have seen Undercity and was done there with their own eyes. Human experimentation. Slavery. Biological warfare. And so on. Thralls done nothing. This is an ally he wants in the Horde? Not to mention Varians has seen exactly how far he can trust the Horde. Broken Front anyone?

There is little point negotiating with someone who proven so untrustworthy. Thrall may be reasonable….but if he can’t control his people – and he can’t, as Garrosh, Warsong Gulch and other events show - he’s the wrong person to speak for the Horde. Humanity isn’t united under one leader…but at least if you make a deal with the leader, you can expect their followers to obey. Thrall can’t even guarantee that.



What crack are you smoking? Varian has just recently (Patch 3.0 actually) gotten his shit back together, and ever since he's been blaming everything that happens internationally from skirmishes to flatulence on the Horde.
>>>And despite this, he was ruling for 5 years before the game started. He’s attended – or tried to attend - at least two peace conferences with the Horde in that time. Since he got back, he has overlooked the Hordes acceptance of slavery and his own incarceration. He even sent Bolvar to the Wrathgate where they worked with Saurfang Jr.

He doesn’t have to like the Horde to work with them and he’s shown a remarkable willingness to do just that for the past 5 or 6 years. What’s he got for his trouble? Not much.



His foreign policy is in the vein of the "no negotiating, i'm always right" school of thought, and he lets his anger rule his decision making.
>>>As I asked before….when does he get to stand up for his people and the Alliance without being accused of letting his anger rule the day? Tarren Mill was human not so long ago. Not Forsaken. The Forsaken have been attacking Lordaeron for 5 years. Longer if you include their time in the Scourge. The Orcs have been invading Ashenvale for the same amount of time. The Alliance has actively held back in resisting this.



However, the problem in Ashenvale is the Warsong clan, yet again. Garrosh and the Warsong clan are a recurring internal problem for the Horde and I anticipate the day when either Thrall or High Overlord Saurfang kick the shit out of Garrosh.
>>>>The last time it was tried, Garrosh wasn’t the one who lost. It’s possible Thrall was trying the “I’ll let him tire himself out hitting me in the face” routine but Thrall is supposedly Graroshes leader. He is the Warchief of the horde. Either he can’t reign in the WarSong Clan or he won’t. Neither proposition is cause for the Alliance or Varian to hold back any longer.



One thing that really got me about your reply is your statements about the Undercity. The Undercity is Gnomergan II, it's completely uninhabitable to humans, or pretty much anyone else for that matter, the water seeps with plague (old-school scourge plague, not the new plague). Also, Sylvanas' plague research was (to her knowledge) geared towards creating a potent anti-scourge strategic option.
>>>No. It was geared towards wiping out humanity and the Scourge. She witnessed the tests on humans. She wants to wipe them out. Death to the Living is not a warcry she objects to. It’s a major reason she authorised the New Plague to begin with.



Your comment about "butchers of humanity" amuses me. You seem to assert that humans are entirely without fault in the greater scheme of things in Azeroth, ignoring the fact that a human, Medivh, was responsible for all of the dark portals, humans (the cult of the damned and kel'thuzad) were the main agents of the Lich King in the destruction of Lordaeron and humans are just as easily manipulated, or as willing, to do evil things as all of the other races on Azeroth, case in point:
>>>And the last time any of these was representative of humanity? The Cult of the Damned are outcasts. Medivh was killed because of his role. Kel’thuzad kicked out of the Kirin Tor. Even Arthas isn’t representative of humanity.

Compared that with the Horde. Thrall brought Varians slaver to peace talks with him. He encourages the Horde to honour those who consorted with demons, and who destroyed Azeroth and attacked Lordaeron. He is allied with the Forsaken who engineered a plague to destroy the living.

Humanity has its bad apples. Definitely. So do orcs. And orckind has their good examples. It isn’t all black and white. But humanities Evil (capital E, as opposed to ordinary corruption, politics, crimes etc) isn’t “official policy”. It is with the Horde.



My issue with Varian is that he's a shallow character, he's angry and emotional and racist and that's about it.
>>>Angry? Yes…..he’s got every right. Two Wars against he orcs, the deaths of Anduin, Bolvar and his father. Numerous massacres. Every effort at peace destroyed or overlooked and Thrall, the Warchief of the Horde, sits there wringing his hands saying “Not my problem, ‘guv”.

Thrall is refusing to stop the invasions of Lordaeron or Ashenvale. He is refusing to stop the Forsakens experiments. He is aiding the annexation of the Dwarven Highlands. He and his kind condone slavery, cannibalism, human experimentation, genocide and so on. And he’s not doing anything to reign them in or even censure them.

And not everything can be laid at the door of Demonic Corruption…the orcs genocide of the Draenei began before they drank the blood for example.

Put it another way…he’s just found out the Forsaken have been creating a plague to wipe out the living. What should he do? What he did was help them retake Undercity and put the same power structure back in place.

Emotional? He’s just seen what the Forsaken..Thralls allies…have been up to in Undercity. He’s just lost Bolvar. Hes seen the reports of the Broken Front.

Racist….not sure where you get that idea. He works with many races. Perhaps it’s the abomination comment? In tha