Officers' Quarters: Ball and chain
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.With Ulduar proving to be more difficult than Naxx, raid leaders are focusing more and more on performance issues. Raids are finding out that they can't just carry their weakest players through this ancient Titan stronghold the way they could through Kel'Thuzad's floating magical loot pinata. One raid leader in particular has a performance issue with a bit of a twist: The problem player is the wife of one of his best raiders.
I warn people that this is a long e-mail, but it is well written and the details are important to what follows. TLDR version is after the break!
Hello, Scott
I am an officer in my guild and a raid leader for a semi-casual raid (non-Heroic). I am facing a problem that seems perhaps not too uncommon for this type of environment, but it is one I do not know how to fix.
One of the best raiders in our guild has ended up in my raid. I'm very lucky to have him as he is a great guy and fits well with our group, but unfortunately he came with a problem: his wife. Despite having no raiding experience, I agreed to let her join us in the raid. I was hesitant, but I figured that she would pick up things quickly, especially surrounded by skilled raiders in a relatively casual atmosphere.
However, to say she is a horrible player is to put it nicely. At first, I was not worried because she was new, but as we enter the sixth month of the raid and she's seen absolutely zero improvement, I am now concerned to say the least. She has a perfect failure rate on any sort of raid encounter where you have to avoid or move out of something that will kill you. She has NEVER lived through either Heigan or Grobbulous and regularly dies in Kel'Thuzad and other fights requiring alertness. Most of the times she survives things is due to the strong healers in the raid, not her own actions [. . .]
To say the least, eight of us are really unhappy with this arrangement and many are growing resentful. [. . .] I can't make her a good player. Her raid mates are tired of holding her hand and having to make up the difference for all she doesn't bring. Her husband seems totally oblivious to this issue, probably out of necessity to his marriage.
The logical thing is to boot her from the raid but these are my hesitations:
One, I know her husband will be really upset and quit with her. While I suspect he would agree with our decision if he was an outside observer, in practice I think it will be a big upset. He might even leave the guild, which will cause of a lot of unhappy people outside of our little raid. He is very popular in the guild, and has raided with us since the days of Molten Core.
Even her leaving could cause a lot of upset. She has some friends now in our guild, but more than that she has an uncanny ability to stir up drama. I predict tears and screaming and hysteria and a long-lasting conflict. I suspect other guild members will resent us (me) for stirring up trouble.
[. . .] Considering the consequences, people outside of the raid would probably just advise us to suck it up and deal with her. They don't really grasp how frustrating our nights are and how many chances we've given her because they haven't been there. So, yes, we could carry her longer but we just no longer want to. Selfish perhaps, but it's at the point where raid nights are no longer fun.
I have tried talking to her many times about all sorts of various issues. I have recommended mods to help her play better and I've sought out good raiders of her class to help her play better. I have spent a lot of times explaining what enchants to buy, what gems to socket and what glyphs to use. I still explain to her how to do the fights she's seen just as many times as I have. In other words, I've put pretty much every effort I can think of into solving this problem with minimal results.
Ulduar is out, the time to resolve this is now, before I end up with a mutinous raid. Any good advice on how to solve this with the least amount of upset would make my week.
Thanks,
[Anonymous]
TLDR version: The wife constantly needs trivial fights explained and then subsequently fails to avoid obvious hazards. The husband has yet to acknowledge that his wife is causing problems. Other raiders are getting fed up with the situation. Drama is imminent no matter what the raid leader does.
You're in a tough spot, Anonymous, and your concerns about potential drama are valid. If your raids aren't fun, then people will stop showing up. Sooner or later you just won't have the personnel to make them happen, but in all likelihood your favorite married player will still be there, night after night, wondering why it's so difficult to get people to fill the slots.
So far you've handled this situation incredibly well, with near-superhuman patience. You've done everything in your power to help this person play better and be a contributing raid member rather than an Achilles heel. But it clearly has not led to improvements. The status quo of failure reins supreme.
So unfortunately you need to do more. How you resolve the situation will in part be determined by what kind of guild you run. You say that it's "semi-casual," but that could mean virtually anything.
First, I'm wondering if you've spoken to her husband about the situation. Trust me when I say you do not want to put yourself between them, so you should broach this topic very carefully. Husband/wife drama is probably the worst kind of drama there is, and you don't want that. It's up to you to gauge whether or not you think he can handle a conversation. He might be just as frustrated as you are about the whole thing. You never know.
However, whatever you do, do not start off by criticizing his wife. Just ask him if he can help you to help her. You've been doing an awful lot to get her up to speed and keep her there. If her husband is as good a raider as you say, he should be capable of doing all that and more, since he's right there with her. If they play in the same room, maybe he could go over the fights with her while the raid is working their way through trash, off of Vent of course so it's not a distraction. That way you wouldn't have to waste time before the bosses that everyone knows by now. He could also warn her about dangers without using Vent. These are two suggestions you can make that might lead to a broader discussion of the topic. But do not push it any farther if it's clear that he doesn't want to talk about the actual, ongoing problem.
Ulduar can be your savior here. I highly doubt you'll have much success there with someone who can't grasp encounters and dies on every fight. On early fights like Deconstructor and Kologarn, it's very easy for one person to wipe the raid. After a night of what may inevitably be abysmal attempts, the raid will look to you to make adjustments. And adjust you must.
The key here is that you can't just single her out. If you're going to get her out of your raids, you have to do so in a fair, unbiased way. Go to Curse.com and download this addon: Failbot. It's updated for just about every significant -- and avoidable -- boss and trash ability in Ulduar. Failbot tells you whenever someone fails to avoid an ability, whether it's Hodir's Flash Freeze, Mimiron's Proximity Mines, or Brundir's Overload.
You can be a jerk about it and post the fails in raid chat after every attempt, or you can just use it for your own tally. I'd recommend the latter. No need to rub people's faces in their mistakes. However, make sure everyone knows that you have the addon. You could use the report feature once to show people what it is and how it works.
Write down each player's total throughout the night. The great advantage of Failbot is that you'll know about every big mistake whether the person survives it or not. The biggest drawback is that some people may intentionally fail on abilities in order to wipe faster after a called wipe, so you'll have to look at who's alive when a wipe is called and eliminate those incidents from your count.
After the raid, tell everyone the totals as reported by Failbot. Include your own number. If you want to be dramatic about it, start with the person with the least and work your way up. Assuming it's a typical night, you have now quantified the degree to which your member's wife is letting the raid down. It can no longer be denied or downplayed. If you're keeping this running total for a Naxx run where everyone has seen the bosses countless times, so much the better.
Where you go from here depends, as I said earlier, on how casual or serious the guild is. Plenty of guilds would have no problem benching people whom they can prove aren't getting the job done. Your guild sounds a bit more tolerant than that, and of course there are a lot of personality issues here as well. So you could simply warn your raiders that, during the next run, anyone who fails more than 5 or 10 or 15 times (whatever number you think is appropriate) will be benched.
The beauty of Failbot is that it's an objective system. You're not dealing with anything other than raw numbers. If people argue with you over it because the Ulduar encounters are new, tell them that (A) you explained the dangers during the raid, that (B) it's everyone's responsibility to research the fights and know the abilities ahead of time, or (C) both. If you really want to be fair about it, you could exempt everyone from fail counts on the first attempt of each new boss, so that everyone has a chance to see what it is they need to do before you hold it against them.
If the wife turns out to be the person who gets benched, and people come down on you for giving her a hard time, fall back to the math. All those people in the guild who like her but don't raid with her might suddenly understand your problem when they see that she failed 25 times during a three-hour run and the next closest person was under 10.
If the wife gets emotional about it as you say she sometimes does during raids, fall back to the math. Don't let her manipulate you into feeling sorry for her. If she really wanted to play better, she could. Warcraft is not rocket surgery.
Failbot is my best suggestion, but whatever you decide to do, don't make it about her. Use an objective system that evaluates every raider's performance and then hold everyone accountable to it.
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 9)
Riz Apr 27th 2009 2:10PM
"Lag"
the terribad's fav. go to excuse
Chirri Apr 27th 2009 4:12PM
I'm part of a raiding couple, myself. I'm the female half.
Lag can and will kill people on Frogger. My guild is made up primarily of male players, and most of the people who die on Frogger are, of course, male. Part of this is due to numbers: more guys mean more chances to go splat. The female players are hit and miss - our deaths on Frogger are pretty low, but certain nights we just can't get a break. Nothing to do with the actual player's "skill" since Frogger doesn't take skill. It takes attention, and a connection that isn't flat out giving you the finger.
I've always done very well at Heigan, once I figured out what method of movement and camera view worked best for me (took me one or two encounters in a single night to figure it out). My guy, on the other hand, was so bad at the beginning that it became a running guild joke. We'd get into the room, and he'd start cursing a blue streak under his breath. The guild would heckle him in vent before and during the dance. It took him weeks to manage to survive the first dance. He'd always die in zone 3.
Any guild that has females screwing up and LETTING THEM OFF because the players are females needs to suck it up and stop daydreaming about their guildies' chests. Grow up. They're acting like idiots because you're letting them behave like idiots.
As for the original query for the article, he's sort of up the creek. He let the problem continue for 6 months? That's ridiculous.
Hand the couple off to another raid leader for a week or three, let them experience the joys of the wife outweighing her husband's contributions. If no one but your own raid members are taking the issue seriously, make them aware in a way they can't ignore or write off. They're letting it remain your problem alone. They won't be as likely to ignore it if it becomes their problem.
I don't know that publishing Failbot numbers to the raid is a good idea. The rest of the raid knows what's going on, if they've begun making rumbling noises about her performance. But the data would be more then useful when reporting to other raid leaders, guild officers, or even just the guild leader.
I play a healer (as does my guy, actually). I have a very, very low tolerance for anyone who stands in the "DO NOT STAND HERE" stuff. Fire, void zones, lava, ooze, poison, disease clouds - you name it, it's what's preventing me from healing the people who are actually contributing to the raid. I have limited mana, and can only cast on so many people with a single spell. I'm not interested in wasting my mana on someone who can't be bothered to do more than press their two or three attack/spell buttons repeatedly, without looking or moving around.
marla Apr 27th 2009 7:34PM
When we first starting doing Heigan, I failed EVERY time. Like....couldn't make it past one or two splashes FAIL!! My amazing raid leader even took me and the other player having troubles aside and gave us some practice heigan runs in the room next to the boss :-p Didn't help. At first, I didn't feel so bad since most of the raid was dying too since it was new to all of us...but it really started to sting after the second week of Heigan FAIL.
I did everything - adjust my camera angles, etc. One night, however, as we started to do the dance, I began jumping (since my character sorta looks like she's going faster :-p )...and I lived the whole time. After that, I just jumped the entire Heigan dance...and never died. Now I can run it normally since I'm practiced at it...but for awhile, jumping was the only thing that helped me. In retrospect, I figure that it was my terrible sense of beat that was giving me problems with the dance. The jumping worked like a metronome and kept me moving with the group in time. Just goes to show...you need to figure out your own way :-p
We got the Safety Dance two months ago for the first time :-D
negativegirl Apr 27th 2009 5:33PM
I applaud Anonymous' desire to deal with this situation with maturity.
I think speaking to the wife in a non-criticizing way is a good idea. She might not have any idea that she's that terrible. Some people you can only help but so much. I know that from experience. You can't control how she or the husband will react. If you address the situation without the intent to criticize or insult, then you've done your job. How she takes the news is out of your control and don't let it fall on your conscience.
Good luck, my friend.
@the women blamers: it's so easy to fall into unfounded (and stupid) stereotypes. it seems to be the general consensus that women play wow as well as and often better than men. it's okay, but be careful, ignorance is contagious! take care!
lol@you Apr 28th 2009 5:09AM
"Lag can and will kill people on Frogger."
No it wont. It's just an excuse people use to make up for their badness. I play with a consistent 500 ping with the occasional exception of 150 ping when using lower ping, however I have yet to die to frogger. Some of my friends have inconsistent pings and still haven't died to frogger, ever. Same goes for Heigan's dance, I'm a mage and I was dancing in it with the melee on my first attempt on the boss because it looked like fun. Sorry but if you can't consistently do these two challenges without dying then you are one of the many bad players in WoW.
Rijthul Apr 28th 2009 4:45AM
What, so you're saying you've never witnessed the completely displaced frogger blobs? Watched someone running directly through the gaps detonate and die, while you managed to sneak through the same hole?
Congratulations, you're running on the most stable instance server that Blizzard has ever installed.
Oh, and you decided to run with the melee on your first attempt "because it looked fun?" Meanwhile totally ignoring a fight mechanic that gimps your DPS beyond rational comprehension, thereby eliminating your entire reason for being in the raid - not to mention that your presence probably stressed out some of your healers, and the other DPS who were picking up the slack.
You sir, are an ass.
ivyleaves Apr 28th 2009 1:05PM
I got the best advice ever for the safety dance: Run to the location where the last wall was in front of you and pause there. I never die anymore, I just look where the wall is and run there and pause while watching for the next wall.
frzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Apr 27th 2009 1:19PM
i'd like to think that if i was sucking THAT bad, my guild leader would feel comfortable telling me so, drama or no. I get the feeling that she prob has decent gear, just from having her corpse dragged through naxx-10 every week. Free ep1cz just because you are a spouse is lame, and unfair to the other guildies who would want the spot in the raid. He even mentioned that she causes drama out of raids... Talk to her like a adult, tell her that she needs to get better, or step aside, drama be damned.
Averna Apr 27th 2009 1:21PM
As a woman, and an officer in my guild I'd like to add that we've had a handful of subpar members and its been as many guys as it has been girls. Failbot is awesome and especially for the reason that Jason posted. If I happen to miss you stopping in the blue fire to tie your shoelances, Failbot is happy to keep me updated.
Eddy Apr 27th 2009 1:24PM
I get so frustrated with the 'entitled wife' of a player. I wish husbands wouldn't get their wives to play unless they actually game on their own. It just makes the rest of the girl gamers look bad.
Iwanttobeasleep Apr 27th 2009 2:54PM
Also, "entitled husband" and "entitled friends". This sort of thing is not limited to women.
Mure Apr 27th 2009 4:07PM
well you can get them to play just don't expect them to be great players. I got my dad started a little before BC came out, his highest level toon is still only a level 63 hunter and a level 62 mage right behind. he doesn't do groups, he mostly solos or partners with me to tag team stuff. He will probably never get to end game content and even with his mage he is low man on dps when he is in groups. But it is still a great way for me and him to spend some time together and have fun, just know the other half's limitations before you volunteer or ask for them to be included in a raid or group.
Eddy Apr 27th 2009 4:18PM
Yeah, no, you're both totally right. I just get frustrated with people who think they're great because they have friends in high places but can't honestly see how terrible they are.
Dunwich Apr 27th 2009 1:35PM
Talk to the guy...find another hobby for the wife or schedule raids during a time when she can't be there...then use the lockout as an excuse for not inviting her. Get her involved in arena and have a dedicated friend always insist on doing 2v2 with her on raid nights. Find something...anything for her to do. Or bite the bulet and tell the husband she can't raid anymore and he needs to address the why or be prepared for the chewing.
yaminokishi Apr 27th 2009 1:25PM
Behold the power of boobs.
Brian Apr 27th 2009 1:26PM
I /laugh at everyone who fails at frogger. I warn them ahead of time, if you die on frogger I will laugh at your small genitals and then rez you. The front end of the slimes are more dangerous than the back end due to latency. Skirt the back of the slimes don't try to beat them in the front.
I feel this guys pain. I raid every week and we always have someone who has to afk for dinner for an hour. we raid at the same time every week......eat at your desk, eat before the raid, eat after the raid, srsly. Same time, every week, learn to plan ahead. I can understand the raid leader doesn't want to boot them but an hour is a pretty hefty chunk of time.
Also, bio breaks. Seriously, if you can't hold your pee until the end of a wing of naxx see a doctor, or buy a diaper. There's something wrong with you.
Shyama Apr 27th 2009 2:26PM
Ya, um, holding in urine too long can have long term repercussions. You can expand your bladder too much and lose some of the elasticity. As you age "pockets" can form. Whattever doesn't end up in the toilet because it's trapped in these pockets will start to ferment and you can get sick. Don't help people with that.
Also, it can give a short break that some people may need
Shinn Apr 27th 2009 8:42PM
No no no Shyama :)
If you can't pee BEFORE a wing, then there's something wrong with you, if you realize you need to pee while int he middle of a wing, there's is no way that the short amount of time you have till he end of the wing will stretch your bladder. A wing is 30-45min max these days. so lets say about 20-30min of holding it in?
You'd have to be 60 to have that problem imo (jeez shinn, now you're being ageist, qq qq) >
Plastic Rat Apr 28th 2009 4:14AM
Careful Brian, anything you say that makes you look like the hated 'hardcore raider' will get you downrated on here.
Don't even mention things like 'raid discipline', 'teamwork' or anything that leads people to believe you take 9/24 other player's time remotely seriously. It makes people hyperventilate as they try to yell 'It's just a gaaaaaaaame!' over and over as fast as they can.
Brian Apr 28th 2009 10:14AM
peeing every 15 minutes is a sign, it's a sign that you need to stop drinking at your computer, or you need to see a doctor. Or buy a diaper.
Holding you pee for one more boss isn't going to rupture anything and send you into septic shock, please stop hitting google in an attempt to make yourself look educated.