An opportunity to change Retribution

Because you can pick up all talents that contribute to DPS even before you hit Level 80, it becomes a matter of gear scaling after that. In most cases, similarly geared Retribution Paladins in a raid will put out nearly identical numbers with few exceptions. Unlike other DPS classes where the spread can be wide owing to particular talent choices, differences in rotation, gear, and play style, Retribution Paladins have the relatively simple task of resolving priority when an ability comes off cooldown. There are no combo points, no freeze effect bonuses, no procs to wait for.
This isn't to say that Retribution is one-dimensional. It's not. Particularly in PvP, Retribution can reach deeper into its bag of tricks with stuns and incapacitate effects, instant Turn Evil, and a plethora of survivability and anti-cc abilities that you often won't bother with during raids. That said, there isn't anything particularly creative about how Retribution Paladins kill their opponents. It pours on damage. Prior to 3.1 that meant quite a lot of burst. For one glorious week, that meant ranged burst with Exorcism, too.
That was quickly shut down, of course, a quick nerf that didn't quite make it into the patch notes. Call it what you will, but there is actually some sound reasoning behind the nerf, least of which is to tone down Paladin burst in PvP, already gimped with weakened Judgements. Ghostcrawler expounds on this in an interesting thread over at the forums, discussing the reasoning behind the small changes to Retribution. Here's the most important thing: the main idea is to make Retribution actually take skill more interesting to play.
As much as I miss burst in PvP, I am more excited at the prospect of a more involved play style. Right now, Paladin PvP and to a lesser extent PvE is little more than brute force. Ghostcrawler summed it up rather nicely, "you hit the buttons and damage happens." That's exactly how it works right now -- Crusader Strike, Judgements, Divine Storm, Exorcism, and even Consecration. Abilities that produce damage in different flavors, none of which have any sort of interdependency with any other ability. The closest thing to preparation is having a Seal up, but even that has been simplified with 30-minute Seals.
This is exciting. This is good. This is an opportunity for change. It's not something we'll see in a hotfix, but certain to make it to a future patch. It's a good bet that Crusader Strike will play an important role in the revised play style. Procs like Killing Machine and Rime make Frost an engaging Death Knight tree, for example, with the player having to watch for the best opportunities to use abilities. At the same time, RNG still plays a huge factor so damage output can be inconsistent. But you get the idea. Retribution could use proc or controlled proc abilities, such as a Shaman's Flame Shock + Lava Burst combo.
The best part about this whole thing? Blizzard is listening. Ghostcrawler trawls the forums every day, and trust me, he picks up a lot of good ideas from players who take the time to write their suggestions in a constructive manner. A lot of developers read community blogs, as well, so you actually have a voice. Retribution (and even Holy, to a lesser degree) will be revised, and this is the best time to share your thoughts. Head on to the Paladin forums or the Damage Dealing forums to share your ideas. Retribution is on the crux of change. Seize this opportunity to guide the class in the right direction.
Filed under: Paladin, Analysis / Opinion
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 5)
Max Apr 28th 2009 7:41PM
Which class has a really complicated rotation? Most classes "press a button and damage happens".
And I wonder how making retribution depend on procs will make us more fun to play. Sure, we will probably have to wait to use certain abilities. But our overall dps has to stay the same / increase. And if we do the same damage while using our abilities less often... we have more burst.
Does that mean burst is okay as long as it takes a second to build up? Or our all our damaging moves going to be turned into dots perhaps? Changing for example Crusader Strike from "does X damage, 6 sec. cd" to "does X damage over 6 sec.". It doesn't even have to have a cooldown anymore.
I actually think that our priority system is way more involved then the spell rotation of a mage for example. "Scorchx2, Fireballx10", oooooh skillfull.
I think "Hmm, judgement is on cooldown, there is one mob next to the boss, CS would do more single target damage but in this case DS is better. Okay, now I can cast CS, or would consecration perhaps do more damage on 2 targets?".
And the only problem I see with PvP is that we can use all our damaging moves right at the start. What GC probably wants to do is to somehow make us want to wait with certain attacks. But how he will do that without decreasing our PvE damage I don't know.
Falcon Apr 28th 2009 7:49PM
Playing Retribution is not all about doing DPS. If big numbers is all you can bring to a raid as a Retribution Paladin, then I am sure you are good enough for some guilds.
The great Retribution Paladins can bring the big guns AND know when to stop DPS and step into a support role, be it helping Cleanse the raid of all sort of poison/disease/magical nastyness, throwing instant Art Of War Flash Heals at critical points in a fight, popping a raidsaving Lay On Hands full heal on the tank a splitsecond before he dies, helping offheal if a healer steps on bad stuff and dies or using damage mitigating abilities on the entire raid.
Decent Retridins DPS.
Great Retridins multitask.
Sean Apr 28th 2009 7:51PM
Haven't we been here many, many times before though?
Before and during 1.9, they asked our suggestions - I think the thread was called "By Uther's Hammer" or something. Pages and pages of feedback, largely ignored.
When Burning Crusade came out, we got a strike(!). It was quickly nerfed and took about a year to be reversed. Again they asked for feedback, again it was largely ignored; we had to SHOUT to get something as basic to every DPS as threat reduction. Everything else was postponed until Wrath.
When Wrath was in Beta, we made MORE pages of suggestions, and the original version of Art of War was linked to Crusader Strike (if I recall). Also many people suggested ways to make Crusader Strike and Divine Storm more interesting, than just wattered down versions of Warrior abilities. Again, largely ignored. And people have been saying Blessing of Kings should have been baseline for YEARS, it finally took them until patch 3.1 to do it.
When GC and his team started beating our burst damage with the nerfbat like a Vegas bookie, while still trying to maintain our PvE damage for Ulduar, we made MORE SUGGESTIONS to boost average damage instead of burst. It was avoided and we were given everywhere-Exorcism, a burst damage spell. Which was quickly nerfed. Oh, and when they nerfed our burst damage and mobility, we said we needed some better PvP controls to compensate and stay competitive - still ignored to this day.
So, forgive me for not jumping on Blizzard's "We Need Your Feedback!" bandwagon for the umptienth-million time.
jbodar Apr 28th 2009 10:53PM
Why does this make me think of a cut-out version of Ghostcrawler singing "I Can Change" from the South Park movie?
Falcon Apr 28th 2009 7:59PM
And to all those that are being out-DPS'd by Retridins and QQ'ing about it, you should check more top guild WWS samples. They all know how to play their classes, and Retridins are in the bottom three of all DPS classes on nearly all bosses.
Bottomline, if you are being out-DPS'd badly in PvE by a Retridin, you are most likely doing something wrong.
Dyermaker Apr 28th 2009 8:02PM
Blizzard cannot make up their mind with Retribution Paladins, and until they do there will be nothing that will work with the class.
For example, they want us to heal and defend in raid situations. Its why they give us the fast heal and engage us with Hand spells. However, this role is inconsistant with their newly stated desire to have complex DPS rotations.
They want us to make talent choices for DPS, but then they make it so you can take very DPS talent and not think about anything.
Blizzard has been inconsistent with their goals, inconsistent with their delivery, and now they want to redesign things again. Sorry, this should have been addressed in WotLK beta, but they were too stubborn to do so.
redpallyranger Apr 28th 2009 8:06PM
This will make Seal of Blood less favourable in PvP over Command. While making Crusader Strike less boring. The numbers however could be configured by blizzard or the effects slightly changed to reduce burst. As far as 'more skill' to play I guess timing factors could be added while certian buffs are up ie, Righteous Vengeance, Vengeance, Heart of the Crusader, and Art of War. Mean while ... some ideas to play around with....
Crusader Strike - An instant strike that causes 110% weapon damage. In addition Crusader Strike has 100% chance of dealing Seal of Command damage.
Crusader Strike - An instant strike that causes 110% weapon damage. In addition Seal of Command damage from Crusader Strike will have a 100% chance of being a critical hit.
Crusader Strike - An instant strike that causes 110% weapon damage. Crusader Strike increases the chance of dealing Seal of Command damage by 50% for 5 secs.
Crusader Strike - An instant strike that causes 110% weapon damage. Crusader Strike has a 25% chance of increasing Seal of Command damage by 25% for the next 5 secs.
Crusader Strike - An instant strike that causes 110% weapon damage. Crusader Strike has increases the chance of dealing Seal of Command damage with Divine Storm by 25% for 5 secs.
Crusader Strike - An instant strike that causes 110% weapon damage. Crusader Strike has a 50% of consuming your Righteous Vengeance effect, dealing the damage all at once.
xnn Apr 28th 2009 8:20PM
Depends on what we mean by skill...
I'm loving frost mage atm. One basic nuke, a few moves to kite, look for water ele CD etc. The only seemingly complicated thing is learning how to kite well, and how to control the situation around you, learn how to shatter combo, and to get your reaction time up.
The last bit of it does take a bit of skill, although this really has nothing to do with an instance or raid. I suppose the best test of this is in PVP; although often times I can tell a bad mage from a good one just watching him grind for a few secs.
I don't like overly complicated rotations myself. I wish there was a more creative answer to making a class take at least a bit of skill to play other just rotation.
xnn Apr 28th 2009 8:26PM
One thought though, change exorcism to a dot (or damage dot like moonfire) that increases the damage of judgments.
Comic Apr 28th 2009 9:30PM
I don't mean to sound condescending, but I have seen so many people use plethora wrong and it's time I start fixing it. Plethora means excess or too much. Last time I checked, ret pallies do not have too much survivability and anti-cc abilities.
Zach Apr 28th 2009 9:35PM
@Comic - Divine Protection, Divine Shield, Hand of Freedom, Hand of Protection, Hand of Sacrifice, Hand of Salvation + Glyph of Salvation, Improved Righteous Fury, Divine Purpose (allows HoF to remove stuns), Sacred Shield, Divine Guardian (increases efficacy of Sacred Shield).
That's a lot of mitigation and cc-break options for one class and spec. A relative plethora of choices.
Aedilhild Apr 28th 2009 8:48PM
Good comments all around.
I just hit 80 on my eponymous ret-pally, outperformed other DPS classes on the way and am still edging out better-equipped players. Easy to do? I can accept that, although Carlos has a point on the little ways in which retribution picks up the slack here and there.
It's pure fun. If I want options and the honing of concentration worthy of an air-traffic controller, I'll switch to my prot-warrior alt. Thunderclap! Tab-Devastate, tab-Devastate, tab-Devastate! Revenge served cold with a side of zero-cost Heroic Strike! Shield Slam, gratis! Anything else? -- threat can't wait. Thunderclap!
Tolsimir Apr 28th 2009 8:49PM
Paladins SHOULD simply be "push the button and damage happens" easy-to-play classes, simply because that's how they work in lore. They rely on brute strength to faceroll their opponents, looking to the Light for guidance when needed. Their training in combat is mostly simply melee, not excruciatingly knowledge-ridden like that of a mage, or horribly sneaky like a rogue. Keep ret pallies simple!
Lionrek Apr 28th 2009 9:12PM
so basically Exorcism doesnt even work against locks going demon.. which is actually a dumbass move that u guys did on pallies....
and before that.... taking away pallies only aspect of the game... which is their 'godly' burst damage.....
players only QQ because they cant beat pallies anymore like they used to -.-
which is very likely to be expected from players who always beat them like in seconds
and now i hear dots getting crits...
hmm seeing frost strike hitting me 10k per hit, priests bubbling with their absorb shield every time its up which is like seconds, mages hitting 8k per spells... oh well nothing wrong in there
and yes i stopped for 5 months and now playing again
Healadinz Apr 28th 2009 10:09PM
WoW You guys are so lame. OOo Paladins are so Overpowered! Dude cmon, have you ever SEEN A DAM DEATH KNIGHT???!!! They burst they sruvive, they are unstoppable and yet you still think Oooo we should nerf paladins and not the OP DKs! I mean seriously, you guys are so lame like this!
au contrae Apr 28th 2009 10:47PM
I would have to strongly agree with the DK point, have you ever seen a REAL DK do damage?
I've done Ulduar25 and a Blood DK wearing only two pieces of Heroes and a whole bunch of heroic gears (including some blues) dishing out 4.7k on Razorscale.
Tell me how is the Ret paladin class anymore OP than DKs?
I blame the whole 'cooler classes should do more damage and be ignored with the nerfbat' concept. DKs are blizzard's prized toy at the moment, same like Warlocks for a long time and the result? Ignored regarding their blatant overpowered abilities. 3.1 was more of a BUFF than a nerf to DKs.
Imo if Blizzard wants to buff Ret dmg, one suggestion is just make Consecrate able to CRIT. Every other damned AOE in game crits, why not consecrate?
Healadinz Apr 28th 2009 10:17PM
ok also no one ever said you had to play a Paladin, man if you want something diffrent go ahead!
Also other classes like Mages nonstop polymorphs WITH NO GOD DAM COOLDOWN, Priests like 10k go dam abosrbtion, DeathKnights never stopping HP running out Killmode, and Druids freaking form running! You know lets all go and pick on the paladins cause we all want to go QQ, lay off! Oo that 1 paladin cheated me he had bubble and i had ice block, evocation, polymorph QQ QQ QQ man dont QQ about 1 class until u took a good dam consideration about your class .
Eversor Apr 29th 2009 6:53AM
What... the... fuck? I don't even know if I should post a serious response, because it might get stuck between those Q's there.
One thing tho. The article was not QQ. Your comment is.
au contrae Apr 28th 2009 10:39PM
I agree with it consuming RV and dealing all dmg at once, but certainly not SoC procs. They've come way too far with the whole SoB/M change to suddenly make it useless for PvE/P
RetPallyJil Apr 28th 2009 11:38PM
They make WoW easier every damn patch; why single us out?