Encrypted Text: The logic behind Rogue axioms
by Chase Christian 
Apr 29th 2009 at 11:00AM
Every Wednesday, Chase Christian of Encrypted Text invites you to enter the world of shadows, as we explore the secrets and mechanics of the Rogue class. This week, we discuss some of the logic behind a few of the popular Rogue mantras.While I was on the WoW Insider show last weekend, a question came up regarding weapon speeds and poison selection for a Combat Rogue. I answered the question in detail, and after finishing my explanation, I realized that I sounded more like an algebra teacher than a gamer. There is a lot of math involved in mastering the Rogue class.
While spreadsheets provide exact numbers for DPS and gear comparison, it's often that a Rogue is unable to take the time to run the numbers for every weapon and gear combo. It's important to have a firm understanding of HOW Rogues work, in order to make your own decisions without needing to consult the formulas. After the cut, I'll be explaining a few of the current "Rogue axioms" in detail, so that you can understand the logic behind the tenets.
Weapon Speeds:
The speed of a weapon has been the lead determining factor for its strength since the launch of WoW. Consider the Barman Shanker being a best-in-slot due to its record slowness, and Webbed Death being the only name in Mutilate PvE. Blizzard's most recent change to the proc mechanics of poisons, from a static percentage to a proc-per-minute (PPM) system helps alleviate some of the DPS vs weapon speed discrepancies that existed. However, as Rogues are a well-researched class, there will always be a "best" combination available. Slow MH with a Fast OH appears to be the best for every spec, but let's explore each individually.
Mutilate PvE:
For Mutilate PvE, a large portion of your damage is poison-based. Now that a Sinister Revenge will proc the same amount of poison as a Webbed Death, their poison damage is same. This is the key change that the PPM system brought: the poison damage of any given weapon does not depend on its speed. As Sinister Revenge is the stronger dagger in the physical realm, it now defeats Webbed Death in a pure DPS race. SR also has a higher average damage (top end damage is irrelevant), this means it will also cause our Mutilates to hit for more damage.
However, there are other mechanics that affect Mutilate DPS. Focused Attacks thrives on faster weapons, which tilt the tables in a quicker dagger's favor. The newly improved Deadly Poison and Envenom also prefer a quick weapon for minimum reapplication time. While SR and WD will proc the same amount of Deadly Poison over a long fight, you still want a quick weapon that will allow it to be stacked back up within the 3 second tick window.
The end result of these two mechanics move us towards the end result of: Slow MH, fast OH; but where DPS is the most important stat instead of speed. A high DPS main hand that happens to be of only medium speed (1.5-1.6) is still a very viable weapon now, whereas before it would be disenchanted or used by a Hunter.
Combat PvE:
Combat features a similar mechanic to Focused Attacks: Combat Potency. This talent alone forces us to use the quickest weapon possible in the off hand, with no exceptions. The value of off hand weapon speed to a Combat build is quite possible the highest single value placed on item speed for any class. For the main hand, a similar trend occurs. Because of the instant damage nature of Combat, using the slowest weapon possible (if all the same DPS) in the main hand becomes optimal. Anything from 2.5 to 2.7 speed could be used as a Combat MH, though DPS is more important than speed. Combat has always been about using slow/fast, however now we are not penalized for using a slow main hand as it now does the same poison damage as a fast weapon would.
Poison mechanics:
An interesting fact that many Rogues are unaware of is that our finisher attacks are able to proc whatever poison is currently on the main hand weapon. This means that if you put Instant Poison on your main hand, your Envenom (for example) can proc that poison, adding to your DPS. Previously, there was a bug where Mutilate was able to proc the off hand poison twice per Mutilate, and so we put Instant on the off hand, that is no longer the case. Because finishers are affected by main hand poisons, you should always use an instant damage poison on your main hand. If Mutilate, you'll use Instant Poison as it is buffed by Improved Poisons. If you're Combat, you will rely on Wound Poison's incredibly high proc rate to carry your poison damage.
Deadly Poison's scaling coefficient was buffed from 8% to 12% in 3.1, which makes it an incredibly solid poison for every Rogue. Because it doesn't deal any instant damage, it should be placed in the off hand, so that our Instant/Wound Poisons are being used for finisher attacks. No matter what spec you're playing, you should always have Deadly Poison in your off hand (except for PvP).
These new PPM mechanics are a big boon to Mutilate PvP Rogues, whose two slow daggers are now dealing both massive Mutilate burst damage along with greatly improved sustained Poison damage. Along with the significant nerfs to the Death Knight, I believe this to be a large contributor to the current success of the Rogue in the high-end arena brackets. I can personally attest to having far higher damage when I'm running on empty (waiting for energy to regenerate) than I previously did.
Spec for your weapons:
Many years ago, when I was leveling up what was to be the first of my four Rogues, I found my first blue item. The Viking Warhammer is a random world drop, which I found from some Ogres in Ferelas. Being new to the Rogue class, I asked one of my guild mates in my all-Rogue guild for advice. Should I continue on with my 25 DPS green swords, or should I switch to this shiny new mace? I'd never used any weapon other than swords at the time. His advice was sage, and something that I've passed on to countless Rogues: "spec for your weapons".
If you're on the fence, trying to decide what spec to use, simply choose whichever spec you have the best weapons for. If you have all of the best-in-slot weapons, then simply choose whichever you enjoy more. Combat will do more damage than Mutilate if you've got Calamity's Grasp and Webbed Death vs Murder and Webbed Death. Mutilate will do more damage than Combat if you've got Sinister Revenge and WD vs Kel'Thuzad's Reach and WD. It's all about the best weapons that you have right now. Sword Combat beats Mace Combat, if you have really good swords. Mace Combat beats Fist Combat, if you have really good maces. We're still all about our weapons, and so if you're looking for your new 3.1 spec, just look at what your hands are wielding and go from there.
Filed under: Rogue, Raiding, Classes, (Rogue) Encrypted Text
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
ShamanHealer Apr 29th 2009 11:13AM
Maths FTW
anthony Apr 29th 2009 11:29AM
Thx chase, It's nice to finially know know all the ins and outs of weapons and poisons after 3.1. Great articial.
Quickshiv Apr 29th 2009 11:32AM
I want to start doing more pvp this season or at least giving it another shot. What are the best non-raid pvp daggers for mutilate? It looks like Titan Steel shanker , Dagger of the rising move, or the Dusk Blade if I can find one.
percinho Apr 29th 2009 11:38AM
Excellent work. I'd been mulling over whether my long-held beliefs on weapon speeds still held true and you've answered all my silent questions. Many thanks.
Embalmo Apr 29th 2009 11:43AM
I'm still a fan of combat daggers, myself.
Douglas Apr 29th 2009 1:02PM
Combat... daggers? Why? DPS from combat daggers is consistently below any other talent build, be it Mutilate, Combat Swords/Maces/Fists, or HAT. And on top of that, Combat Daggers is the only build (aside from a PvP Shadow Dance build) where you have to worry about positioning.
Basically combat daggers is the least optimal spec you could have for a rogue. Unless you spec 23/23/23 or something.
Tinwhisker Apr 29th 2009 1:41PM
For the love of all that is good an right in the world, please to not try Combat Daggers. It is quite possibly the least efficient and lowest DPS spec ever conceived at this point.
There is nothing that you can do to make it at least minimally viable to play in any situation.
Zamn10210 Apr 29th 2009 3:31PM
Back in the day Combat Daggers was the highest dps spec around. Times have changed, eh?
Pokin Apr 29th 2009 3:50PM
Bah, you can't rain on his parade. Combat daggers are sub-par DPS for sure, but if he isn't raiding he has every right to play how he'd like.
In BC, I was combat daggers when all the FotM rogues were following EJ's advice and speccing combat swords. I consistently out dps'd sword rogues (god knows how?) who swore they used optimal rotations and had equal gear. Personally, I liked the positional requirements of combat daggers and spamming something other than sinister strike. Besides, in raids you have a positional requirement as to where you stand no matter what you spec.
In WotLK, the difference in DPS for combat daggers versus other specs is much larger and I've conformed to the cookie cutter mutilate spec. I'm no theorycrafter and I find that maximizing dps is more important to me than playstyle - but not everyone has to have the same priorities.
Skelnik Apr 29th 2009 6:38PM
@Douglas:
I'm combat daggers, myself, 15/51/5. I've never used backstab as my CP builder, though. I'd rather play SS because it's a faster cycle and allows more flexibility on all fights but Patchwerk.
Positioning is always key, but I can fight from any angle I need to, and I do find my numbers up there on par with the Mut and HaT rogues.
One thing I've discovered when running with another rogue with just about the same equipment and spec, though, is that he finishes with Eviscerate to push his DPS number higher than mine, whereas I finish with Rupture for a lower DPS number, but a much higher damage done. (DoTs increase your Activity, which means lower DPS, even when you're doing more damage, because DPS = Damage / Activity.)
Scyan Apr 29th 2009 11:44AM
Rogues are indeed pretty mathy. It's part of what makes playing rogues so interesting.
Chase - two things you might also want to mention:
1) Not all poisons were changed to ppm - only instant, and wound. Thus, weapon speed still impacts the replication of deadly and other poisons - faster is better for them (although since application rate does not matter for deadly after it reaches 5 stacks, it's virtually negligible).
2) Slow weapons actually increase the application of instant and wound poison when the weapon is used for instant attacks due to the ppm mechanics. For example: wound is set at a 50% proc rate on a 1.4 speed weapon, and a 100% proc rate on a 2.8 speed weapon. Both weapons will generate the same number of wound poison procs over time, but an instant attack with the 2.8 speed weapon will always proc the poison, whereas an instant attack with the 1.4 speed weapon will only proc it half the time. The same would hold true for instant poison, causing rogues of every spec to favor slow weapons for their main-hands now.
Arkeband Apr 29th 2009 11:49AM
Pretty concise writeup of rogue math post-3.1. Usually I find some discrepancy between your articles and the latest from elitistjerks or what have you, but this is good. Note that Golem-shard sticker would still be good to stick in your offhand, it is not limited to mainhand.
Aeryk Apr 29th 2009 11:54AM
Good info, but as usual it only covers 2 of the 3 rogue specs.
Chase Christian Apr 29th 2009 12:35PM
Steps to playing HAT:
1) Wear whatever BiS you feel like.
2) Spam eviscerate.
3) ???
4) Profit.
There's not the same theorycrafting behind HAT which is one of the reasons I don't use it often.
Roboticus Apr 29th 2009 1:18PM
Good article Chase, however this comment seems a bit off.
HaT has not been about "spamming" eviscerate since the multi-rogue HaT bug was eliminated long ago. Currently, given realistic CPs/sec rates, if you spammed eviscerate, you would average 1-3 CP eviscerates, which would yield terrible DPS. In reality, HaT has become much more interactive, where the player must constantly be making choices about what ability to use, including Hemo or other CP builders, balancing energy income (affected by varying CP levels of relentless strikes) with CP income (varying with the RNG of your party).
It is worth noting, though, that on wowmeteronline.com, there is a grand total of 1 HaT rogue in any top-10 rogue DPS ranking for any Ulduar boss (last I checked, at least). This seems to be primarily because Explosive shot is not generating CPs anymore, taking away the HaT rogue's bread and butter partner.
Chase Christian Apr 29th 2009 1:24PM
If you're using a CP generator as HAT, then you're using HAT in a non-optimal environment.
With a good HAT group, you simply keep up SND, Rupture, and use Evisc every time you reach 4+ CP. Energy is not a concern due to Relentless Strikes. I simply don't see the "rotation" portion of a HAT build. This is especially true in a bad HAT environment, you're really just using Hemo to build up CP and doing terrible DPS while you're at it.
Either HAT is: easy (use Evisc every time it's smart) or wrong (bad HAT environment). There's no "hard" place for HAT because in a "hard" place HAT is worthless for DPS without the constant flow of CP.
Roboticus Apr 29th 2009 1:32PM
You're absolutely right that you should use HaT in suboptimal environments. However, there is a pretty strict logic that you need to follow to optimize your use of those CPs, and this logic does in fact include CP builders. Given the RNG of HaT, even with a great CP flow, you will find yourself at times in circumstances where a builder is essential to DPS, though infrequent.
Logic I use (keeping SnD up of course, and replace rupture with the Evisc when it's time):
If CP >4 Eviscerate
If Energy >90, CP > 2, Eviscerate
If Energy > 90, CP
Roboticus Apr 29th 2009 1:34PM
EDIT: ...should NOT use in optimal...
Roboticus Apr 29th 2009 1:37PM
EDIT 2: the comment system ate the second half of my post. Can't use less than or equals to operator.
If CP >4 Eviscerate
If Energy >90, CP > 2, Eviscerate
If Energy > 90, CP less than or equal to 2 Hemo
If Energy < 90, CP less than or equal to 4, wait
[lots of text was here]
Conclusion: dropping the third rule does in fact lead to a large DPS loss. Check Mavanas' sheet for confirmation, which lets you tweak the logic rules.
Roboticus Apr 29th 2009 2:01PM
For those still interested, here is the link to the only HaT rogue in the top 10 for Ulduar:
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/detail/85440504#damageout
He does 63 Eviscerates and 55 Hemos. Given that this is the highest recorded HaT parse on this site, it's fair to assume he had an above-average CP flow. Based on this, it seems that in even ideal circumstances, HaT requires a choice between Hemo and Evisc.