Encrypted Text: The logic behind Rogue axioms
Every Wednesday, Chase Christian of Encrypted Text invites you to enter the world of shadows, as we explore the secrets and mechanics of the Rogue class. This week, we discuss some of the logic behind a few of the popular Rogue mantras.While I was on the WoW Insider show last weekend, a question came up regarding weapon speeds and poison selection for a Combat Rogue. I answered the question in detail, and after finishing my explanation, I realized that I sounded more like an algebra teacher than a gamer. There is a lot of math involved in mastering the Rogue class.
While spreadsheets provide exact numbers for DPS and gear comparison, it's often that a Rogue is unable to take the time to run the numbers for every weapon and gear combo. It's important to have a firm understanding of HOW Rogues work, in order to make your own decisions without needing to consult the formulas. After the cut, I'll be explaining a few of the current "Rogue axioms" in detail, so that you can understand the logic behind the tenets.
Weapon Speeds:
The speed of a weapon has been the lead determining factor for its strength since the launch of WoW. Consider the Barman Shanker being a best-in-slot due to its record slowness, and Webbed Death being the only name in Mutilate PvE. Blizzard's most recent change to the proc mechanics of poisons, from a static percentage to a proc-per-minute (PPM) system helps alleviate some of the DPS vs weapon speed discrepancies that existed. However, as Rogues are a well-researched class, there will always be a "best" combination available. Slow MH with a Fast OH appears to be the best for every spec, but let's explore each individually.
Mutilate PvE:
For Mutilate PvE, a large portion of your damage is poison-based. Now that a Sinister Revenge will proc the same amount of poison as a Webbed Death, their poison damage is same. This is the key change that the PPM system brought: the poison damage of any given weapon does not depend on its speed. As Sinister Revenge is the stronger dagger in the physical realm, it now defeats Webbed Death in a pure DPS race. SR also has a higher average damage (top end damage is irrelevant), this means it will also cause our Mutilates to hit for more damage.
However, there are other mechanics that affect Mutilate DPS. Focused Attacks thrives on faster weapons, which tilt the tables in a quicker dagger's favor. The newly improved Deadly Poison and Envenom also prefer a quick weapon for minimum reapplication time. While SR and WD will proc the same amount of Deadly Poison over a long fight, you still want a quick weapon that will allow it to be stacked back up within the 3 second tick window.
The end result of these two mechanics move us towards the end result of: Slow MH, fast OH; but where DPS is the most important stat instead of speed. A high DPS main hand that happens to be of only medium speed (1.5-1.6) is still a very viable weapon now, whereas before it would be disenchanted or used by a Hunter.
Combat PvE:
Combat features a similar mechanic to Focused Attacks: Combat Potency. This talent alone forces us to use the quickest weapon possible in the off hand, with no exceptions. The value of off hand weapon speed to a Combat build is quite possible the highest single value placed on item speed for any class. For the main hand, a similar trend occurs. Because of the instant damage nature of Combat, using the slowest weapon possible (if all the same DPS) in the main hand becomes optimal. Anything from 2.5 to 2.7 speed could be used as a Combat MH, though DPS is more important than speed. Combat has always been about using slow/fast, however now we are not penalized for using a slow main hand as it now does the same poison damage as a fast weapon would.
Poison mechanics:
An interesting fact that many Rogues are unaware of is that our finisher attacks are able to proc whatever poison is currently on the main hand weapon. This means that if you put Instant Poison on your main hand, your Envenom (for example) can proc that poison, adding to your DPS. Previously, there was a bug where Mutilate was able to proc the off hand poison twice per Mutilate, and so we put Instant on the off hand, that is no longer the case. Because finishers are affected by main hand poisons, you should always use an instant damage poison on your main hand. If Mutilate, you'll use Instant Poison as it is buffed by Improved Poisons. If you're Combat, you will rely on Wound Poison's incredibly high proc rate to carry your poison damage.
Deadly Poison's scaling coefficient was buffed from 8% to 12% in 3.1, which makes it an incredibly solid poison for every Rogue. Because it doesn't deal any instant damage, it should be placed in the off hand, so that our Instant/Wound Poisons are being used for finisher attacks. No matter what spec you're playing, you should always have Deadly Poison in your off hand (except for PvP).
These new PPM mechanics are a big boon to Mutilate PvP Rogues, whose two slow daggers are now dealing both massive Mutilate burst damage along with greatly improved sustained Poison damage. Along with the significant nerfs to the Death Knight, I believe this to be a large contributor to the current success of the Rogue in the high-end arena brackets. I can personally attest to having far higher damage when I'm running on empty (waiting for energy to regenerate) than I previously did.
Spec for your weapons:
Many years ago, when I was leveling up what was to be the first of my four Rogues, I found my first blue item. The Viking Warhammer is a random world drop, which I found from some Ogres in Ferelas. Being new to the Rogue class, I asked one of my guild mates in my all-Rogue guild for advice. Should I continue on with my 25 DPS green swords, or should I switch to this shiny new mace? I'd never used any weapon other than swords at the time. His advice was sage, and something that I've passed on to countless Rogues: "spec for your weapons".
If you're on the fence, trying to decide what spec to use, simply choose whichever spec you have the best weapons for. If you have all of the best-in-slot weapons, then simply choose whichever you enjoy more. Combat will do more damage than Mutilate if you've got Calamity's Grasp and Webbed Death vs Murder and Webbed Death. Mutilate will do more damage than Combat if you've got Sinister Revenge and WD vs Kel'Thuzad's Reach and WD. It's all about the best weapons that you have right now. Sword Combat beats Mace Combat, if you have really good swords. Mace Combat beats Fist Combat, if you have really good maces. We're still all about our weapons, and so if you're looking for your new 3.1 spec, just look at what your hands are wielding and go from there.
Filed under: Rogue, Raiding, Classes, (Rogue) Encrypted Text
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
turkeyspit Apr 29th 2009 11:59AM
"We're still all about our weapons, and so if you're looking for your new 3.1 spec, just look at what your hands are wielding and go from there."
As a non-rogue player I'm curious: am I the only one who thinks this is wrong?
Given the RNG nature of PvE drops, I find it hard to accept that a Rogue is kept from speccing the way they want because a certain item hasn't dropped / their guild hasn't progressed to that boss.
Our Survival Hunters were Survival Hunters when they had the Xbow from UK, and they stayed Survival Hunters when they got Envoy of Mortality.
Balius Apr 29th 2009 12:32PM
Wrong as in "incorrect" or wrong as in "unfair"? It's not incorrect, if that's what you're suggesting.
Avrus Apr 29th 2009 12:40PM
Rogue weapon itemization is abysmally low. I have guild rogues that went to Naxx 50 times and never saw Sinister Revenge. There needs to be more mid level daggers (143 - 153 dps) itemized, and more first weapon itemization (by a factor of 4).
Avrus Apr 29th 2009 12:41PM
That should read - 'fist itemization' not first.
There should be fist weapons available for sale in the Argent tournament as well.
Eyllena Apr 29th 2009 3:11PM
The difference is that any given hunter spec can use any ranged weapon available with equal viability. A rogue specced for combat swords wielding a pair of daggers isn't going to be much good, nor a mutilate rogue weilding a sword and a mace. The choice of which weapons a rogue has available to use are part of what has to be considered when they spec. Imagine if Explosive shot required a gun, or aimed shot a crossbow, instead of any ranged weapon. A hunter would have to choose how to spec based on his weapon, then, wouldn't he?
timmie Apr 29th 2009 12:11PM
What about leveling rogues? I find that I don't have time to roll a full stack of deadly poison dot's, and that the mob dies before they have a chance to expire, given that I don't have envenom yet, the mob dies before they can all run their course, should I still be using wound/deadly, or is the advice here and on the wowinsider show targeted at raiding rogues, and rogues who can finish with envenom?
Finally, where do people get the rogue numbers? is the poison proc formula published anywhere? Because I can't help that notice that before I could just read in game tooltips to pick the right poison, whereas now I have to search the internet. This is better?
And I would also love to hear about subtlety. I don't have the gear to support it (SWORDS!!!!!), but I hear the burst is great for competent soloing, as long as you don't have a habit of pulling adds. That sounds a lot like something I could want. Everyone always talks about mutilate, stunlock, and deep swords, but never even mentions what a subtlety build looks like.
Hendrata Apr 29th 2009 12:49PM
I am currently leveling with subtlety too and it's great. Mobs die within 2 - 3 shots, but it's game over if you pull adds. So I don't like it as much.
oddworld Apr 29th 2009 12:53PM
Leveling as a rogue is a huge pain in the ass. My first character ever was a rogue, and except for the 40-50 grind (where I had a pocket priest on almost every quest excursion) it was pretty dicey. I rolled a hideous dagger/sword combat hybrid (with the thrash blade in my offhand) until outland. I think combat daggers is actually a perfectly valid way to level - ambush gives you an excellent way of gaining some initial leverage on a mob, but the energy efficiency of the combat tree makes it easier to deal with mobs in rapid succession.
Chase - I've got a question for you as well. I'm deep into raiding Ulduar as mutilate, but I've found that mutilate doesn't feel like an efficient spec for non-raiding. I was wondering if you have a good suggestion for a second talent spec for dailies/farming/random questing on the side? I was thinking some flavor of combat swords, but I'm wondering if my damage output will be too much lower (I've just got the two Northrend rep swords - reaper and fang). Thoughts are appreciated, I love the column - keep it up!
Chase Christian Apr 29th 2009 1:04PM
Combat is wicked good right now, with similar ilvl gear/weapons you can pull off Mutilate-quality numbers. I roll combat PvE (for raiding/farming) and mutilate PvP right now.
Edondia Apr 29th 2009 8:48PM
Timmie
I use a Mutilate/HfB 51/18/2 spec for raiding. (As soon as I get a good Fist Weapon or Sword I will probably give Combat a try.) For my second spec I am using Mutilate/Prep 41/5/25 for PVP. They are both pretty much the cookie cutters you can find on EJ's. I actually found it easier to use my PVP spec for the daily grind stuff which equates more closely to leveling. This could of course be because I leveled my rogue as sub daggers and always enjoyed the more "roguish" of the 3 trees and my PVP build gives more of the talents from the sub spec
Eisengel Apr 29th 2009 10:41PM
My first character was also a Rogue and I leveled Combat daggers. Adds were a problem, but I also put my first 5 points (at the time it cost 5) into Master of Deception and set up my kills carefully. Once I got up to about level 40 (Hillsbrad-ish) I figured out that I could Cheap Shot, Backstab and then unload those combo points into Kidney Shot. I had no trouble after that and was able to do about a level a night from about 48 to 60. When BC started and the Rogue talent point reset came with Mutilate, I specced into Assassination to try it out. At the time Mutilate was pretty sucky, but I loved the Assassination tree and have run it ever since. The D3 set proc + SnD while wielding the Nightblade (with an Executioner chant) was great fun.
skincarver Apr 29th 2009 12:54PM
i like your work but and a very big but i dont like how every noob rogue who will never read a EJ thread or use a spreadsheet but will read this stuff and try to call his self a GOOD rogue its just not true shure u can pass as a ok rogue with out putting effort in to knowing how to play your class but when it comes down to the hard numbers this sort of thing means nothing.
Refund Apr 29th 2009 1:00PM
What about Webbed D/Webbed D...for mutilate?
Does the higher DPS (+13.1 dps) of the WD MH wep make up for the loss of speed (lower Mut dmg) by going with the Webbed D over something like Knife of Incision?
Just curious how it works out if going to the high DPS wep is always the better choice over speed with items that are close on an MAEP/AEP chart....
Haven't killed KT yet.
I notice that shadowpanther rates WD as a mainhand pretty high still, but didn't know if that accounted for the poison change application or if it is still a worthy MH over at 1.4 versus a 1.8 speed with lower dps.
Land Pearson Apr 29th 2009 1:04PM
I'm pretty new to the rogues and have picked up the two heirlooms swords and am going swords combat. I was just thinking with the battle worn thrash blade off hand and then sword spec that should with chance of extra attacks in my off hand should increase the effectiveness of combat potency? Does this make sense or should I be trying to find a faster off-hand instead?
Chase Christian Apr 29th 2009 1:05PM
The proc from Thrash Blade gives you an extra MAIN hand attack (same for sword spec) and so you want a quicker weapon in the OH -ALWAYS- as combat. There's no exception to this.
Land Pearson Apr 29th 2009 1:15PM
Oh, so even if I use it OH it procs on the main hand? What about for sword spec, I interpreted that as for each sword you are weilding that sword would have a chance to strike again, would it proc off the OH but cause the MH to strike?
thanks,
Stompd Apr 29th 2009 1:52PM
Thanks Chase, that's a really great article for a casual player.
As a casual player I don't really get into many guild runs & more often than not I'm joining a PUG to get simple elite-killing quests done. I've never really gotten into the numbers crunching of the rogue class but have been curious. The guildies don't seem to have a great grasp on it either although they won't readily admit it. I honestly don't look much farther than DPS & speed but could never really understand (or be bothered with) which was more important & why.
Reading most of the rogue articles is like looking at raw Matrix footage & pulling out basic info is futile so this clears up a lot of my questions. Most of which I had immediately after reading the last Encrypted Text.
Thanks again.
Shade Apr 29th 2009 1:47PM
I'd been quibbling between going instant/deadly or just flat out wounding on both weapons (and comparing numbers on both) ever since the patch came out. Dual wounding poisons still tops for combat fist/sword, or should I be looking at another combo?
Chase Christian Apr 29th 2009 1:50PM
DP's coefficient was buffed by 50%, making it a must-have for Combat. Wound/DP is what you should be running as Combat, unless it's an alternate build that includes Improved Poisons (in which case it's Instant/DP). DP in the OH is the new standard (for now!)
Shade Apr 29th 2009 2:33PM
Gotcha. Double instant still fine for soloing? ...not that it matters, I rip through shit with no poisons at all just fine.