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5-01-2009 @ 2:05PM
This shouldnt be as big a deal as it is...
5-01-2009 @ 2:16PM
I know if I saw my guildmates completing hard mode achievements in Ulduar within minutes of one another I would be asking some questions and making them stop and report it or receive a Gkick. Clearing all of Ulduar using it was an obvious cheat and Karatechop didn't give a rats @$$ about his guildmates or himself by doing it.
5-01-2009 @ 2:19PM
@PosiI agree with you, but the problem is that Karate, as I understand it, IS the guild leader.
5-01-2009 @ 2:38PM
I would have mailed it to my friends account, logged on his character, and screwed around with it there. =P
5-01-2009 @ 2:40PM
It says "cheater" on the item... Does anything else need to be said?
5-01-2009 @ 3:00PM
@daelusa:"It says "cheater" on the item...Does anything else need to be said?"Ok, here's a scenario for you. You're on Battle.net, playing some good ol' Starcraft II. You've bought all three of them. You have an issue with your game, and put in a ticket for it. You get no response for a few weeks. When a GM does respond to you, he tells you how to fix the problem, and at the end of telling you how to do it, he tells you a cheat code. Unbeknownst to you, that code is supposed to be a Dev only code, and that was supposed to be a tell to another GM but got appended to your chat.You use said code a couple times. You get banned. How do you feel?Sure, you cheated. But a Blizz sanctioned officer gave that code to you. Then that same organization banned you for using it.Was your ban fair? I'm honestly not sure. But it's *NOT* a cut and dry case of, "You cheated, you get your ban."
5-01-2009 @ 3:06PM
1) If you had Martin Fury, wouldn't you use it on something as powerful as a raid boss? I personally would have.2) I'm not saying that what Karatechop and his guild did was right, but I think a permanent ban for using an item that was accidentially given to one of his guild's players is a bit harsh. Removing achievements and maybe a temporary ban would have been more reasonable, because the achievements weren't obtained in a legitimate way, which is a reasonable excuse to remove those obtained in that way.3) I think the word "cheater" on the tooltip was meant to be a joke, but regardless of if it said that or not, I still think that it wasn't right to be exploited, although it WAS sent by mistake.
5-01-2009 @ 3:24PM
Daelusa,It does say "cheater", which is funny. What it does not say is "This is a developer-only item and is not intended for use by any player character. Any character using this item on live realms will be permanently banned."That is much more clear. Boring, but clear.Do not assume that what make sense to you, makes sense to everybody else.
5-01-2009 @ 3:25PM
I can't understand the people who think he has done something wrong. I understand the argument that many people felt he should have expected to be banned, because with an item like that obviously Blizzard wouldn't have wanted it used by regular players. That doesn't make it wrong to use it though. Going against Blizzard's wishes is not unethical, or immoral, but is tempting fate. Blizzard can do what ever they want with their game, and if they choose to make an example of someone, then that is their choice to make. It is also a choice that has lowered my opinion of them.What I don't understand are the people who are suggesting he did something morally or ethically wrong. I've yet to see anyone suggest a single thing he did that was unethical. I have seen a bunch of self righteous people who seem to get a thrill out of his suffering. I'll never understand that mentality. It's the same people who get a thrill when they see someone else pulled over by a cop on the side of the road. It doesn't matter if they know the person pulled over violated the law or not, they are just excited that someone is getting smacked. It's a petty and childish emotion.What Blizzard has done here is well within their rights, but it doesn't make it just. They punished someone for their mistake. It is like walking into a grocery store and seeing a sign that said those little motorized scooters are free and available for all patrons, and then being kicked out of the store because they really only intended them for folks with trouble walking.
5-01-2009 @ 3:35PM
I could have seen how maybe he could have been naive enough to not know this was a bannable offense (if you can ignore the fact that he's been playing for 4+ years, and should have known better on that fact alone) except for the fact that in the item's description, it clearly calls you a cheater. If the item description calls you a cheater, and you use it, it's fairly safe to assume that would be concidered cheating. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure that out.
5-01-2009 @ 3:41PM
The vast majority of you noble do-gooders seem to be missing a very valid point, regardless of whether he opened a ticket and reported the item, or used the item for whatever, Blizzard is the entity at fault for sending him the item in the first place. If the GM would have been paying attention to his job none of this would have happened, but instead of taking responsibility for their ineptitude they blame the guy for using an item that was freely given to him… Should they take away his achievements, most definitely, should they ban him and his guild, most definitely not… It’s just another clear case of passing the buck for doing a half assed job…
5-01-2009 @ 3:51PM
@DreadlyAnd instead of reporting something that is completely out of context of anything else in the game they hide it and use it. Yes it's blizzards fault they got it in the first place, but it's still Karate's fault they used it, he is responsible for his own actions and the results there of.
5-01-2009 @ 4:05PM
If you are sent something that you did not ask for, it's yours and you have no obligation to correct someone else's mistake, either through payment of the item or return of the item.For example, you do not renew a subscription to a magazine, the company continues to send you the magazine, you are entitled to keep all issues of the magazine without having to pay for them. (when I was younger, there was a court case that involved this situation and that was what the court decided.)What should have happened was Blizzard should have taken back the item and reset any acheivements that were earned during the possesion of the item. Done deal.
5-01-2009 @ 4:57PM
Some of the posters here really worry me from an ethics stand point. "It's Blizzard's fault. They're the ones who sent him the item. Obviously he was supposed to use it." And so on.No. It takes a warped view of the world to see this as anything except someone exploiting a GM's mistake. Blizzard, nor any MMO-producing video game company on the planet that gives a crap about their game, will NEVER send you an "I Win" button as an apology to people who got hacked. Blizzard does not give players artifact-quality developer-only items with the power to kill all enemies within 30 yards. And as tongue-in-cheek as the "cheater" at the end of the item's use command is, it is also a very accurate description of what using the item makes you. A cheater.Karatechop did wrong. As did his guild member who received the item. The second he saw that item, he should have paged a GM. He should not have taken it to Ulduar. He should not have even taken it to Goldshire and killed wolves with it. Its an item that quite obviously should not have been in the hands of a player. And by using it, knowing what it did, Karatechop managed to bring his guild down with him. Honestly, the second they insta-killed Flame Leviathan, one of the guild members should have had the guts to send a ticket to a GM to report the egregious use of an exploit, whether they knew how it'd been pulled off or not.The entire situation could make an interesting case study for a college ethics class. What happens when you give power to someone with the mentality of a 12-year-old (Whether Karatechop actually is 12 or not, he certainly acted like a child.) Will they do the right thing or will they abuse the power? In this case, as with so many people who have posted comments in articles like this, the answer is to exploit for all their worth and damn the consequences. There is a clear right and a clear wrong in this situation. Its not some morally ambiguous gray area as some have suggested. It doesn't matter if he'd taken it to Molten Core or Ulduar. Its cheating. Its an exploit. And it is wrong. And Karatechop and anyone in that raid who saw Flame Leviathan instantly turn into a heap of scrap metal and didn't immediately page a GM about it deserved what they got.
5-01-2009 @ 5:17PM
I think people are losing perspective on this issue.WoW is a game. There is no right or wrong, nor is there a system of ethics. Its all pixels and numbers in a database. Let the people act how they want. Karatechop should be able to keep all gear/achievements/etc. he received while using the item in question because in the end it doesn't really matter. The point of a game is to have fun, if he had fun then the point of the game has been accomplished.Protecting the solidarity of hard mode achievements is something I really could case less about.
5-01-2009 @ 5:27PM
I agree, ultimately Blizzard is the one who dropped the ball on this one...the limited uses on the item also could be an argument for the fact that he thought Blizzard was doing him a kindness...in allowing the original player that was returned to recoup lost playing time by leveling through low level content faster through the use of this item. I think a week long ban, removal of acheievements, and a stern warning, is all that was warranted from Blizzard...
5-01-2009 @ 6:30PM
What the players would have done is of little value, why is no one questioning Blizzard's participation in the situation?http://fatchickstank.blogspot.com/2009/05/why-blizzard-is-wrong-for-martin-fury.html
5-01-2009 @ 5:49PM
"The entire situation could make an interesting case study for a college ethics class. What happens when you give power to someone with the mentality of a 12-year-old (Whether Karatechop actually is 12 or not, he certainly acted like a child.) Will they do the right thing or will they abuse the power? In this case, as with so many people who have posted comments in articles like this, the answer is to exploit for all their worth and damn the consequences."You are the one who is making the assertion that exploiting a game is ethically wrong. You make the statement as though it should be obvious, but it is not a judgment that I would agree with. Where is the harm in it? Who was harmed? How were they harmed? I wouldn't even agree that this is an exploit, but it wouldn't change my opinion if it were.This is a video game, and the only consequences that have real meaning involve interactions in the game with other real human beings. One-shotting an NPC causes no harm. The only people this affected were the other people in the instance. People who create situations that intentionally hurt the feelings of other players... That's immoral. People who wall jump to stand on top of the AH and dance... Not immoral, but is an exploit.Can someone please, please explain the ethical dilemma here. It's not cheating if you aren't in a competition.
5-01-2009 @ 5:55PM
You're all fucking idiots. I would have auction house'd it for a quick 20-30k gold. No where in the ToSA does it say you can not auction house an item like that. Of course knowing a GM would pull it off the AH I would have only done like 12 hours with minimum trade chat spam.
5-01-2009 @ 5:57PM
Agreed. I don't blame the guy for going and having some silly fun... this IS a game after all. And I doubt he expected to keep any achievements or loot he got while using it... he was probably just going "wooo hoo, let's have fun." And then Blizzard Customer Service proceeded to remind everyone why they have a grade of F with the Better Business Bureau.
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