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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsUlduar "tuning tweaks"
by Eliah Hecht 
May 4th 2009 at 8:30PM
Ulduar nerfs continue, tonight being called "tuning tweaks" - but nerfs they are, at least the vast majority of them. Several hard modes have been made easier (XT-002, Assembly of Iron, and Hodir). I'm told that the change to Hodir-hard is particularly significant - the timer on the hard mode was increased from 2 minutes to 3 minutes, which means this encounter might actually be possible on 25-man now. The Hodir change will not go live until maintenance.
There were also normal-mode tweaks to Auriya, Thorim, and Freya, and some of the trash (Conservatory, Vezax, Sappers) was beat up a little bit. The Ulduar nerf parade may have slowed down over the weekend, but it's back in force for Monday. I'm starting to feel a little sorry for all the bosses, seeing their power slowly drained away.
Filed under: Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Cthulu May 4th 2009 8:46PM
tweaks--- nerfs---- all good.... the hard modes are gonna be there and that keeps the pug's from getting the phat lewtz they want....
jfofla May 4th 2009 8:55PM
I am puzzled why they would nerf Hard modes.
The ultimate enjoyment for a Hardcore is trying again and again and again
foodlion May 4th 2009 9:15PM
The 2-min Hodir was near, if not entirely, impossible. The only guild to beat it (in its 2 min iteration) was Ensidia, and even they stated they had to use unconventional means to do so (they stacked mages and used spell steal to get the 250% buff of the freya flowers).
The other guilds to have beat it did so when it was 3 mins I believe.
Needless to say that encounter NEEDED nerfing, much like Cthun. I do think they could have let us smash our skulls a little longer though.
Heilig May 4th 2009 8:57PM
The Hodir timer was actually originally 3 minutes and was LOWERED to 2 minutes in what is commonly called a BUFF instead of a nerf. This tweak simply restores it to what it was to begin with. Might want to mention that.
Secondkira May 4th 2009 9:03PM
I don't mind the nerfs to some of the Trash, because to be honest, some of them are almost as hard as the bosses, lol xD
But I dont think that the bosses should be further nerfed, tweaked maybe to get rid of some of the bugs, but not have their damage reduced. In all honesty, I just don't want to see in Trade: 'LFM Ulduar 10man, cleared up 11/13'. I mean at least not this early since the release on Ulduar... Kinda makes all the hard fought guild kills pre nerf seem kinda worthless if some randoms can come in and clear that quickly...
Anyway that's my 2c. =)
Rhys May 4th 2009 9:15PM
Isn't the XT change a buff to him on easy mode? It means you can do less double damage without activating the hard mode.
Wyred May 5th 2009 4:58AM
Yeah, I thought that. On the first heart phase, where you're pretty much guaranteed no deaths, bloodlust and cd's up, my guild has been pushing it with how close you can hit the heart before switching over to the adds. If that's reduced, all it needs is a few ticking dots...
Mavfreak May 5th 2009 8:51AM
@Sinthar
You made a myriad of good points. I certainly don't want to take away from any fun of others (and that's why I wish they would make 10 man the easy mode, and have 25 be heroic). However, there are two things you said I would like to respond to.
1. Sure, I could just quit, couldn't I? Not really. That is like saying, "Hey, your boy didn't win the last Presidential Election? Move to Canada!" WoW is the best MMO the world has ever seen, hands down, and currently dominates the market. As much as I complain, I don't want to stop playing it any more than you do. Besides, where could we hard-cores go? Warhammer? Dieing as we speak. AoC? Lying bleeding in a gutter. The only other decent PvE based game out their is LotR Online, but even that has its flaws. Besides, its my right to complain that the hard-core crowd isn't being fully represented, in my mind, just as others complained they weren't getting to see the content. Just don't say I should stop playing just because I disagree with Blizzard on one issue.
Second, don't just assume that, because I am in favor of difficult content, that I live in my mothers basement, or whatever have you. I have a good social life, and I still raid 3 nights a week. It's not that hard to find a balance, believe it or not. Not all raiders are anti-social basement dwellers, as you seem to think.
Finally, Sylvok hit the nail on the head. WoW has a very high player turn-over rate (due to addiction and burn-out), and speaking from experience, casuals seem to cycle in and out a bit faster (reffering to the younger, middle-to-high school crowd here). Hardcore players supply a solid base that the game can depend on, both to play and recruit more players. If they leave, the subscription base, not to mention the in game economy, will eventually die.
Tempes Magus May 4th 2009 9:26PM
In before the "no more nerfs please I'm begging".
Honestly the developers have made it clear what the design goal is. This isn't a new design goal either. They have implied, if not admitted, that the old raids were poorly designed if not mistakes. The first major change they made to rectify this was no longer having 40 man raids and instead having 25 man be the biggest.
A mmorpg is about having fun and experiencing the story, not having something somebody else doesn't have. People may envy items or something somebody else has, but they couldn't care less who has it; they just know thye don't have it yet and they will get it someday.
On a funny note, they shouldn't be called nerfs really if they make it easier for players. Why do I say that? Nerfs are usually negative for the majority of players when this is a buff in that the majority of players will find it more fun and actually accessible now. The people whining about them have the hard modes still anyway even with that getting changed some; it has to be possible to win even if it's hard after all.
Mavfreak May 4th 2009 10:51PM
"A mmorpg is about having fun and experiencing the story, not having something somebody else doesn't have. People may envy items or something somebody else has, but they couldn't care less who has it; they just know thye don't have it yet and they will get it someday."
Man, with all due respect, you are completely off base here. The entire MMORPG genre (read: EQ, EVE, DAoC, etc) is built around putting as much time as possible into the game, and obtaining rewards to compensate. Most people like to play all different kinds of games; that's fine. However, a certain group of people, such as myself, enjoy focusing on one or two particular games, and those games alone. And, for 2 decades, the MMORPG genre has provided a niche for just those people.
World of Warcraft, and most MMOs in general, are not hard in the sense that you need to be keeping track of the cool-downs and priorities of 20-30 different spells or abilities, or you need pinpoint accuracy with a curser. No, the main difficulty comes from time required, the massive time sink itself being a pillar of the industry. So, with time required as the main difficulty, be it wiping on a boss or grinding rep, players who put more time in naturally expect more rewards. However, rewards don't have to be loot; a reward could be a server-wide message letting everyone know that they were the first warrior to 80, or the satisfaction of knowing that they have downed a boss no one else has even seen.
Now, you may see this as 'e-peen rubbing', or something that hardcore players shouldn't see as a reward. However, these are things that are pursued by the elite, and I, for one, don't think it is something to be ashamed of. Again, in an industry that has previously been based on time put in to the game, it is only natural to want to be the best. And, like a world rank on Company of Heroes, or a % completed on Guitar Hero, the average iLvl of your gear, or how far you have progressed are factors hard-core players can use to compare themselves to, and show themselves they are better than, the other players who play the game.
Naturally now, you can see how the Hardcore players get upset when 'casuals' demand content be nerfed so they can complete it. Up until wow, and some may argue even BC, MMORPG's have NOT been for casual, part-time players. People played them seriously and heavily. More than that; they considered them a hobby. Now, consider that arguably the best MMORPG of all time has come out and captivated millions. Suddenly, casual players, the complete opposite crowd for who MMORPG's are for, start crowding the market, and demand the whole nature of the genre be changed just for them. The Hardcore, the old players, the ones who discovered WoW in the first place and made it what it is today, feel rejected and unwanted, simply because the casual masses pay more.
And please, please don't say "Hard modes are still there for the hardcores!" Hard modes are a pitiful excuse for content, especially when players care more for rewards, and not the progression itself (NOT that there is anything wrong with that).
Tempes Magus May 4th 2009 11:23PM
@Mavfreak - Yes I know people play the game they want, but it is a game which is supposed to be fun. If it isn't fun then why are you wasting money on it?
You do make a good point that all they care about is loot and not content, but then they wouldn't be complaining about the content being too easy without even giving hard modes a chance.
Hard modes are not a pitiful excuse unless all content is pointless. It's the same as normal mode except harder and with different loot, one exclusive boss and maybe a new mechanic or two.
Anyway, my point was that the developers are looking to please everyone and have added hard mode for those who find normal(PUGable) too easy.
You want to know what the developers are trying to do?
Check here: http://www.wowinsider.com/2009/05/02/ulduar-nerfs-and-blizzards-new-raid-philosophy/
and especially here: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=16888489439&pageNo=5&sid=1#99
They spell it out plain and simple. The old content was not designed well or was a mistake entirely. They want Ulduar to be PUGable.
Mavfreak May 5th 2009 12:23AM
But my whole point is that the content SHOULDN'T be pugable, and that their new philosophy is wrong. When it is the loot rewards, and the bragging rights that go with it, that motivate people, why would they even think about doing it on a 'hard mode'?
Imagine two guilds start out on equal footing, gear wise. One guild clears the normal modes every week, going through it in two nights, and, assuming 4 pieces of gear per boss, obtains 52 epics. The second guild works 3 nights a week, but only does hard-modes. They manage to drop an average of 6 bosses per weekly cycle (over a 3 month period). This is 5 epics per boss, or 30 per week. The guild trying for hard modes, thus, is severely handicapping themselves, when compared to the first, more casual guild.
Why should this have to happen? MMO's are primarly based on character comparison and competition, so why should we be forced to handicap ourselves in that aspect if only to maintain the difficulty we have come to accept from both this game and the genre?
Hard-modes are indeed an excuse for more difficult content. Imagine a world (of Warcraft) where every five man instance was Wailing Caverns, except with higher level mobs, and maybe a new boss technique every 10 levels. That is, essentially, what hard-modes are. Why should you have to progress through the 'easy modes', if only have to turn again and wipe on the hard modes? Its not new content, and it almost isn't fun. Speaking from experience, there just isn't the same exhilaration and joy from downing hard modes than whole new bosses from past expansions. MMO"s are all about fun, you say? Well, the hard-cores are losing theirs.
Look, Hard Raid content isn't a mistake. 3 years of wow, and 2 years of an expansion, weren't a mistake. 2 decades of a genre weren't a mistake. The very constituents of the MMORPG genre NEED hard content for their fun, and have had it up until very recently.
Look, I personally liked the philosophy that they had at Wrath's conception; have the 10 man raids be 'easy mode', so casual players can see the content, and have the 25 man HEROIC raids be difficult and drop better gear. This way, the hard-cores can still have their progression and their superiority. But no, I guess too many people didn't like getting less reward for less time.
Sinthar May 5th 2009 8:05AM
@ Mavfreak
You forget, thats YOUR opinion, that mmorpg are for YOU. That in itself says a lot about your ego.
Anyhow for a more coherent analysis of your statement.
1) i do not, and never have, begrudge the top players their server 1sts or better loot (which is at best transitory imo), nor their accomplishments (such as glory of the raider, and i notice the REWARD and show off item of the drake has now been removed)
2) a 'niche' is usually not main stream, but specialised. I do not know anybody that says WOW is not mainstream entertainment now. Theres simply too many players for it not to be considered that now.
3) As a long time RPG'er i can safely say, i play this for fun, not bragging rights (but if you do play for bragging rights - fair play to you and best of luck)
4) hard core players 'discovered' WOW. My god, that IS an ego isnt it, personally i found only RPG'ers started early on wow, as this was what they wanted since Gary Gygax first published D&D, and believe it or not, they played it for FUN. If ONLY hard core players played, you wouldnt have a game to play. Simple as that tbh. Money make the programmers work. Money comes from all sources. Without the funds from the casuals you seem to dislike, there would be no wrath, or probably not even a TBC.
Lastly your second post makes large comparisons on why hard mode is bad, all based on loot, which you previously stated was not the object, please make up your mind. You cant be focused on content, then moan that loot wont drop fast if you go for hard modes. This, tbh, makes you sound like a loot wh**e. But surely hard modes and the BETTER rewards and achievements fill exactly what you say you do your 1st post. And just to alter your premise on the 2nd example, if an ELITE guild with HARDCORE players does uldar, they should pwn the hard mode at the SAME TIME as a casual guild, thereby gaining better loot and more achievements. You see what i did there - actually assuming HC players and casuals are NOT the same skill level, and that its NOT about having equivalent igear?
Lastly if your not enjoying it, THEN QUIT FFS. Its a game, if you dont enjoy it find another one. Go 'discover' a game where you have to be on 24/7 to get anywhere if thats what makes you happy, just dont expect it to go global and have multiple expansions. Although there IS one that does require you to be on 16hours (approx) a day, has over 5 billion members, and no end in site.
Its called Real Life.
You may want to play it sometime, it takes a bit of getting used to, and you dont just 'pick up' your stuff off a boss you kill (well you can but i certainly wouldnt recommend it - the in game police take it off you and put you in jail for a long time), but has some great content.
Oh and as ppl dont seem to respect any comments without links - Sinthar IS my main - Dragonblight, EU realm. Look me up. Im sort of half way between HC and casual id guess in your book. I have put a lot of time in, but due to RL commitments i havent been into uldar bar 2-3 runs so far, and tbh if chosing some RL over uldar makes me a casual in your eyes, then so be it. I care not for others labels, so you can call me what you want.
Rakden May 5th 2009 5:51AM
For the love of all things holy wowinsider give Mavfreak a spot on your blog, the ultra-casual nonsense has been going on for far to long and we need some veterans of mmorpgs at least telling the new captains where to sail.
Plastic Rat May 4th 2009 9:39PM
I think it's still too hard.
Hopefully the developers will get a clue and just start giving everyone Martin Fury shirts in the mail along with an allotment of epic gear every week.
I mean that's what it's all about right?
Tempes Magus May 4th 2009 9:51PM
I like that they are making it more accessible, but I still laughed at that.
They are not doing anything to the extreme. There won't be any "mouth-breathing mongoloids" getting all the Ulduar loot and it won't be an "elite only" raid either.
The developers know how it works. Have fun with it or don't. It's your choice and your subscription; you can take it elsewhere if and whenever you want.
Mavfreak May 5th 2009 6:15PM
Tempus, I really don't think you're reading what we are saying. We get that developers would like for everyone to see what they work oh so hard on, and we get that the more casual people would like to see the raids somewhere besides a youtube video. However, we need to strike a good balance between impossibly hard content and insta-epics.
Hard modes aren't as fun as new, different hard bosses for serious players. You can yell and scream that they should be all you want, it doesn't change the fact that they just aren't. Maybe that makes us elitist, maybe that makes us jerks. Either way, we aren't having the fun we used to have, and isn't that what the game is all about (as you keep insisting)? If so, this fun needs to be preserved.
That is why the original 10/25 split was perfect. People who want to see the content, but don't have all the time needed in the past, can run an easier 10 man version. This would have somewhat sub-par loot and a lower tier set (7 vs. 7.5), but everyone who wants to see the content and experience the fights can.
Meanwhile, the 25 man raids are deliberately tuned to be much harder than the 10 man versions. The loot would be much better, but the difficulty would be that much higher. There would just be one mode; not various tiers of difficulty.
This solves the problem perfectly. If you see a person in iLvl 239 gear, or that different shade of tier gear, you know they are 'hardcore', and more importantly, that hardcore player knows you know he is hardcore. They get the recognition on the competitive progression, and they get the unadulterated fun that comes with a traditional, difficult raid, while everyone else gets to see the content that they didn't get to see before. Everyone wins!
coldforge May 5th 2009 1:27AM
“Man, with all due respect, you are completely off base here. The entire MMORPG genre (read: EQ, EVE, DAoC, etc) is built around putting as much time as possible into the game, and obtaining rewards to compensate”.
Ok, I have to add my 2 cent in here!! Mavfreak I am a semi core/casual and I believe you are off base with Blizzard’s idea when it comes down to this game and their design goals. I have read over the blues and agree with them entirely they know what they’re doing and I trust their judgment. They have over 11 million people that play this game! their staff did not work and toil over this game to make content for 2% of the player base that have no life, no job, no school, no other reasonability.
Blizzard understands that most of their player bases have lives outside of Warcraft. They made this game to make money and to have; I repeat have fun doing it. Blizzard wants …that if you pay your monthly fee to see all the content they have made. I personally have been playing this game for a long time and I have not seen most of the end game because of the “mistake that blizzard” made with past content.
If you want e-peen join a pvp server, join arena where you fight real people not a scripted bosses.
Stop the elite QQ!! Stop calling the game tweaks Nerfs!!
Sylvok May 5th 2009 6:09AM
The reply button is your friend.
Also as far as MMOs go, I believe it is safe to assume that WoW is your first. Sigh I am in a very casual guild because thats how I like to play. I have done the hardcore stuff and its not for me. We are currently only downed XT, but you fail to understand the concept of the mmorpg. Its not your fault really, you have been raised on WoW, which is although the biggest, is still a rather new game compared to the genre. WoW is also the most casual mmorpg ever created, and that is why it has been so succesful.
The problem now from a business point of view is because WoW is so big now they have to appeal to their lowest common denominator, the point where something is so simple everyone can relate to it. So in many ways it suffers the same as the big music companies, it becomes so popular it rewards mindless drivel and a lack of creativity. Its not really the devs fault, they have stated they wish to do some epic things with the game, for example they have stated several times that they thought the idea of destroying a capital city would be neat, but they dont do it because players would react negatively to it.
MOST mmorpgs, even though you dont realize it because you have not played any others still make you lose experience when you die. The corpse runs and de-levels of EQ1 are gone but if you think that every game is like wow you are saddly mistaken.
Also to those who say you do not need the hardcore players I encourage you to look at what happened to everquest. After their numbers started to rise dramatically, it decided to become a much more casual game (comparatively, it still was hard as hell compared to WoW). Now the number of subscribers continued to rise for about a year after that then they started to sharply fall. Would you like to know why, word of mouth. When Everquest stopped appealing to the hardcore players they moved onto other games and it brought down a mountain of doom on that game.
After a couple of years with no major contender, WoW came around, and due to an extremely well timed release became a very successful game. It had no competition in the market at all and came from blizzard, which was even then an incredibly famous company. The raids were challenging, and the large amounts of scripted bosses made the hardcore run in droves to it, simply because all the rest of the hardcore players said it was good.
TL;DR
The word of mouth of the hardcore players will make or break your game. I guess a way to phrase it is, casual players will make up the body of the game and sustain it, but the hardcore players are the soul of the game and give it life.
Tempes Magus May 5th 2009 4:15PM
The "word of mouth" wasn't what broke the game; it was the people who had been playing it for years and years and years....that were bored out of their minds and wanted something new; they happened to make up most of the player base because people got hooked early and stayed out of loyalty; newer players had other games to choose from as the years went on so it didn't get as many new people in. No game can innovate forever. There are finite limits that are inherent to coding software and hardware. Think of the graphics of WoW; they could make the game look much more realistic and interesting, but it would take so much time, work and not even work on most computers after that as well. They can also only have so much data being transfered between computers and their servers because of the limits of the internet and hardware.
It's like the power grid in the US which I have heard equated to "a feeble old person". There is only so much it can do without failing. It would need a revolution in every aspect just like WoW would. That's why games like Everquest make sequels.
All game designers want everyone to experience the content also. You know why?
It's because the very design of an mmorpg is to be an rpg; the story is the most important part along with player communication and having fun(it still is a game).
Having elitism by letting some players have access to loot while others can't even get into the content to get it hinders player communication and, thus, destroys the mmo part of the mmorpg. That can kill a game fast.
Having content that only a small amount of players can see destroys the story and, thus, the rpg part of the mmorpg. People who can't do the content miss out on a huge chunk of the story which may be continued in the next expansion where they will be wondering "huh, that makes no sense". That can kill a game fast too.
Having content that is restrictive and challenges the upper echelon while frustrating or leaving out the majority destroys the fun of an mmorpg. Yes, some have fun by being challenged by everything, but if you can't see that they have catered to your elitism with hard modes then you are blind. Having no fun in a game will kill it faster than anything else.
Maybe you are blind Sylvok. You get catered to with hard modes, an exclusive boss and exclusive loot for all hard modes. You even get the challenge you want.
You say that "it's just the same content", but you don't realize that the entire game is the same content. There are only so many ways you can battle enemies. There are only a few mechanics to the whole game that really matter and can be summed up in one phrase: "kill them before they kill you and take their stuff".
They can't make hard mode "new content" because then it wouldn't be hard mode of the same boss; it would be a new boss or new place. They won't succeed by saying "this place is off limits to you losers" nor should they.
I bet you get angry at rich people for getting away with crimes and having life so easy, but the fact is your view about WoW is the same thing; if WoW really was how you claim it should be then everyone would hate you and the game. There would be no reason to play.
Games are an escape from reality. They are supposed to be fair, balanced and fun.
"The only thing one person can have that another can't is fun."
You obviously aren't having fun and even if you do have fun it won't last. The majority of people have fun though and will stay in the game for that reason. You'll likely quit because it's not your own exclusive club where you can be "holier than thou" to the rest.