Defining "PuGgable"
by Mike Schramm 
May 6th 2009 at 7:00PM
Alan over on WoW LJ has a great question: just what is PuGgable? Lots of people are talking about Naxx and Vault of Archavon and Obsidian Sanctum as PuGable, or able to be taken down by a pickup group, but just where does the line get drawn? Is 25-man Naxx able to be killed by a PuG? Sarth with three drakes? Ulduar?Most of the 10-man instances are generally easy enough to be dropped by a pickup group, in my experience, though probably not for the achievements. A well-geared PuG can roll right through Naxx or VoA without any problems at all. But when you start getting into the achievements (Sarth with drakes) or the higher content (Eye of Eternity is tough unless everyone in there is experienced), then things get a little shady. Which is why lots of PuG leaders will be checking gear and achievements -- they'd rather take along someone who's already done the content than worry about pulling newbies through. Services and reputations can help that a little bit too -- a good friends list can come in very handy for PuGging even hard content.
And I'd say Ulduar is not PuGgable, yet, for a number of reasons. First of all, it's brand new, which means that most pickup folks won't know the fights, and that leads to wipes and only about one or two bosses down. Plus, since it is so new, every raid reset counts, and guilds don't want their raiders using up their resets when there's a guild run later in the week (of course that's not an issue for Naxx, which most guilds have on farm anyway). Though as more people gear up and more guilds make progress in Ulduar, you have to think there'll be PuGs in there as well
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Fan stuff, Virtual selves, Odds and ends, Instances, Raiding, Bosses
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Alex Sep 16th 2010 1:06AM
I've been trying to make a list of reliable raiders in 10 Naxx. Eventually I hope to get a stable group of pugs to start to run ulduar but I know that'll probably never happen.
Julie May 7th 2009 4:53AM
First let's clear a misconception. PUGs are not dogs in the world of warcraft :) PUG =/= bad player. PUG is simply a player, that for one reason or another, is not able to run with a regular group. Maybe they are new to the game, or between guilds, or in a friendly guild they like, but that isn't doing the content. Or maybe they are in a great guild, but they couldn't make it to the scheduled raid that week. Or maybe they just work doctor's hours, so they don't have a set schedule.
Everything should be "PUGable", presuming that your group knows the fights (actually knows their particular role in the fight); and has the appropriate level gear. In short, as long as you have solid players there's no reason why you can't clear the content; whether you guys are part of the same guild or not.
That said, I suppose the question you're really asking, is how doable is the content with the quality of player you're likely to find in LFG? :) Well, you are asking for trouble if you -don't- do gear checks/achievement checks. Even if it's just a heroic dungeon, you should at least make sure people aren't in there in questing greens. Naxx/OS/VOA can be done in blues/purples. Eye of Eternity and Ulduar, I honestly would not take a PUG unless one of the following is true 1) They have cleared the content before and have the required gear 2) They have not cleared, but they have such good gear you would expect them to do well.
In the end, OS and VOA are the most "puggable". The ones you can take pretty much any random group, experienced or not, and still clear. Ulduar is the least puggable, in that you can only take well-geared and/or experienced raiders in there. But it's still doable as long as you screen your raid members.
Gnosh May 7th 2009 8:32AM
Uh, no, a PuG is a Pick-Up Group, as in, joining some group you don't really know, as opposed to a guild run. The only time an individual is referred to as a 'pug' is when it's MOSTLY an organized run, but 2-3 (whatever) people were pulled in that you don't know that well.
Pug isn't a catch-all term for bads.
Padril May 6th 2009 7:16PM
Flame Leviathan's puggable.. ;)
Ferarro May 7th 2009 4:55AM
*chuckles*
Fingal May 6th 2009 7:20PM
To define pugabble you need to first define PuG.
A lot of people take PuG to mean "not with my guild".
I don't think that's a fair assessment.
In my opinion PuG = "Pick Up Group" (zomg!) meaning that you picked 5/10/25 random people to fill the classes you needed and went in.
I've seen a lot of folks say "Yeah, my 'regular PuG' is up to Iron Council. " (or something like that)
Well, if the group is "regular" (i.e., you know the people, you know their capabilities, etc.) then IMO it's not a PuG.
zappo May 7th 2009 11:09AM
That can be a matter of perspective though. I mean it's not uncommon for me to pick up a group and find all the other group members from the same guild, so the people may not be totally random. Usually that indicates a higher success rate, but from my point of view it's still a PuG. I don't know the behavioral quirks of the people, or how to work around them. And some guilds just have a lot of poor players.
On the topic itself, what is pugable is HIGHLY realm dependent.
zanthexter May 7th 2009 7:29AM
"Most guilds have on farm anyway."
Just wondering, what IS the percentage of guilds that have Nax on farm? Not the percentage of WoWInsder readers, but for the game as a whole?
I really wonder if it is "most" or "some" or "nearly all".
Z
elvendude May 6th 2009 7:34PM
I also wonder where that line is drawn. Do you have Naxx on farm if you down everything but Sapph and KT every week? Or do you have to farm both of them as well?
Kryxx May 6th 2009 7:40PM
Naxx is definitely NOT on farm, if you don't kill Saph and KT.
I would say something is on "farm" if you can one-shot every boss week after week.
percinho May 7th 2009 1:23AM
I suspect it's comfortably in single figures. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if most guilds haven't set foot in Naxx. To be fair though, I suspect Mike's talking about raiding guilds, though it would be nice to have that distinction made.
Aveera May 6th 2009 7:29PM
I joined a full pug for 10 Ulduar today, i think only the raid leader had ever been in there before. We downed Flame Leviathen, and XT-002 Deconstructor in one attempt and razorscale in 3 attempts. We got Kologarn to 23%
Somavian May 6th 2009 9:31PM
Pugged Ulduar 10, downed FL, XT-002, Razorscale, Kologarn, Iron Council, Auriaya, and Freya
liu May 6th 2009 7:36PM
I have to respectfully disagree with you, Mike - with competent raid leadership, armorying of participants, and everyone tuned in, a PuG can be just as qualified as a guild. I picked up my "Undying" in a PuG with nine people I've never run with before (no two from the same guild), as well as pre-nerf Emalon kills on 10 and 25. I've only made it three bosses in on Ulduar, but that's mostly a function of the difficulty of finding an Ulduar PuG - as you noted, most guilds are still locking folks to their guild runs.
That having been said, you do have to be a little more careful with screening - the big advantage I see to a guild is that someone pre-screens folks so that you don't have to Armory them as you're recruiting, and it's easier to fill your group. As someone whose RL schedule doesn't allow them to join a raiding guild, I appreciate that Wrath allows me to still experience all the content while being able to raid on my own schedule.
I hope Wrath continues to allow folks to raid both with and without guilds - in my opinion, joining a guild should be a personal preference, not a requirement to experience content.
mysticalos May 6th 2009 7:40PM
10 man ulduar the first 7 bosses are easily pugable. as for 25 man ulduar first 4 bosses are easily pugable now. The recent nerfs are making the most casual of casual of undergeared people clear that content. As long as they have any level of common sense. In all honesty I'm finding pugs sigifnicantly better at flame Lev than my own guild. Seems to be something along the lines a lot of raiders fail at vehicles cause all they do is raid, vs a casual who's put a lot of time into other aspecs of the game like strand of the ancients or wintergrasp and have a better grasp of vehicle encounters.
Dave May 6th 2009 7:56PM
A PuG is what you make of it. If you get random people, you will be able to do random things and the outcome is pretty much going to be undetermined until you get done with things.
If you instead have a competent raid leader who checks out everyone that's going and forms a group for the purpose of clearing specific content or a specific way, you can do whatever you want with 10 or 25 people that are not in your guild.
your guild isn't special, there's nothing that empowers you beyond your own abilities when you have a guild tag. Some people in other guilds are smarter and better than you, some people are worse. Some people are on your level and can do whatever you can do.
25-man Naxx was getting pugged on my server (with a core of around 13 people who we knew we could count on to not be terrible) regularly before 3.1, I've done a 1-Drake 25-man and a 1-drake 10man as a pug. It's not that difficult, it just takes someone with enough fortitude to say NO to people who are not ready for the encounter. Or at least a raid leader intelligent enough to know that for the most part someone who still has quest gear isn't necessarily going to be the best choice for your 25-man naxx run if you don't have prior evidence that they're a good player.
Armory everyone, especially their achievements. You can tell a lot from a guy's achievements these days, especially if they've even killed a boss before. If you don't want to have to explain it to everyone, just don't take people who haven't had a full clear of Naxx 25 before. It's pretty easy, and everything is PuGable if you're smart about how you do it.
Most of the people who complain about a PuG? They don't exercise any quality control at all and they get the results you'd expect from just rolling the dice.
Michael May 7th 2009 9:34AM
'Which is why lots of PuG leaders will be checking gear and achievements -- they'd rather take along someone who's already done the content than worry about pulling newbies through.'
This IMO doesnt mean crap. Say I am on my pally alt, how would anyone know that I have cleared naxx 10 and 25 on my priest and sham? The armory of 1 character is not a tell all about a player.
tonedeff May 6th 2009 8:12PM
I've dont sarth+1 in a pug AND i've done the achievement for sarth with only 19people. This was befor ulduar aswell.
Its only a matter of time befor pugs are doing a decent clear of Ulduar
Lucivias May 6th 2009 8:18PM
As far as Uldar being pugable, I went in with a pug the other day just for the first boss. Took a few tries to see what method would work best but we downed him.
epsilon343 May 6th 2009 8:29PM
I think that the people who are capable of PuGing Ulduar are beginning to rise above the rest. I went into Ulduar-10 with a friend who invited a bunch of random people and we were clearing through until some of them had to hop for a guild raid.
It's all a matter of skill, really. I've had some PuGs that made established guilds look like jokes, and I've had others where I was almost crying at how bad it was because I had gotten saved to Anub and then were unable to kill Grand Widow.
So I'd argue that everything but Sarth 3D (maybe 2D) is puggable at this point in time. EoE just requires a good explanation ahead of time and Ulduar requires whoever is setting it up to Armory and talk to people beforehand. Still don't think you could clear Ulduar with a PuG though, not at this point in time.