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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsDefining "PuGgable"
by Mike Schramm 
May 6th 2009 at 7:00PM
Alan over on WoW LJ has a great question: just what is PuGgable? Lots of people are talking about Naxx and Vault of Archavon and Obsidian Sanctum as PuGable, or able to be taken down by a pickup group, but just where does the line get drawn? Is 25-man Naxx able to be killed by a PuG? Sarth with three drakes? Ulduar?Most of the 10-man instances are generally easy enough to be dropped by a pickup group, in my experience, though probably not for the achievements. A well-geared PuG can roll right through Naxx or VoA without any problems at all. But when you start getting into the achievements (Sarth with drakes) or the higher content (Eye of Eternity is tough unless everyone in there is experienced), then things get a little shady. Which is why lots of PuG leaders will be checking gear and achievements -- they'd rather take along someone who's already done the content than worry about pulling newbies through. Services and reputations can help that a little bit too -- a good friends list can come in very handy for PuGging even hard content.
And I'd say Ulduar is not PuGgable, yet, for a number of reasons. First of all, it's brand new, which means that most pickup folks won't know the fights, and that leads to wipes and only about one or two bosses down. Plus, since it is so new, every raid reset counts, and guilds don't want their raiders using up their resets when there's a guild run later in the week (of course that's not an issue for Naxx, which most guilds have on farm anyway). Though as more people gear up and more guilds make progress in Ulduar, you have to think there'll be PuGs in there as well
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Fan stuff, Virtual selves, Odds and ends, Instances, Raiding, Bosses
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 2)
Justin May 6th 2009 8:31PM
Things I have pugged, within the last two weeks:
10man naxx
10man sarth
25 sarth with under 21 members (no drakes)
10man maly
25man maly
10man vault
10man Flame Leviathan
For those keeping track, the only things I DIDN'T pug were naxx25, vault25, Uld10 past FL, and Uld25.
Cat May 6th 2009 9:06PM
I was pugged into SSC at Vashj last night and thought "sweet, a full raid of lv 70-80 toons, we're bound to get her down." Fail.
There are certain fights, especially those that require intimate knowledge of the fight mechanic, coordination and skill rather than pure DPS and heal bombs, that even when massively outgeared can still wipe a full raid. These are the ones where your classic pug - people who don't know each other and aren't using voice - is almost guaranteed to be a wipefest.
There must be a market for an app or something that allows folks to match up for casual scheduled ex-guild raids but still do it with people who are skilled and committed. LFG is not that app.
Ice Princess May 6th 2009 11:11PM
Oh I feel your pain... we PUGed Vashj witha group of 25 level 80s.... it was major fail. o_O
Everyone thought we'd just pew pew her, the raid leader didn't even bother explaining the fight. He took people who've never been there & was just after the achievement. Needless to say, we wiped twice.
Pyornthe May 7th 2009 8:59AM
Yeah, you've got to be careful with some of those Pugged old raids. I've been in quite a few disasters where the raid leader doesn't even know the fights and just wants a free ride through the content. But thankfully it's usually somewhat easy to tell when a raid's going to be a failboat, I find.
There was a group trying to clear Sunwell the other day on my server [I had cleared it with a competent group a day before] and you could just tell they were inviting everyone who would join in the hopes of zerging down all the bosses. While yes, to some extent you can burn through the bosses, there are still a select few where you actually have to get people whose heads aren't the thickness of a concrete bunker in order to succeed. Reliquary of Souls comes to mind. Every time I'm in a BT group, they wipe on that boss because people don't pay attention.
Kemikalkadet May 7th 2009 11:14AM
Twin emps PuG.
"It's only level 60 content!"
"oh, he's running over to the other emp"
"oh god why are they healing each other?"
"OH GOD WHY ARE WE WIPING?!"
happydays May 6th 2009 9:22PM
I play on two servers, one is a pvp server and the other is a pve server.
On the pvp server almost every pug I encounter is extremely elitist about things like achievements, classes and stats I mean to the point where pugging has become much more hardcore than being in a raid guild and following the raid schedule. :p On the pve server on the other hand I don't think I've ever been asked to link an achievement.
Ironically the pugs seem to go a lot better on the pve server.
Murvo May 6th 2009 10:56PM
Have to disagree slightly with the article. I lead an Ulduar 10 PuG Monday evening with decently geared people (t7) and we downed Flame Leviathon and Razorscale in several attempts. We also made a couple great attempts on Ignis before people had to log for the night.
As long as the encounter is researched and you don't invite literally 'anyone' to your group without a cursory look at their gear, the average PuG can achieve some success in even the newest raid, thanks to the way it is tuned.
Lemons May 7th 2009 4:46AM
I say you got lucky. And btw...if some of the people you're "pugging" are people that you regulary run with and you know are decent...then it's not pugging!
All it takes is one retarded tank or healer to fck over the entire raid. Gear isn't everything, I pugged cot4 with a full T7 pally healer, I thought "Great! We're gunna rape this place and get a shot at the mount". The pally...spammed holy light. Nothing else was cast...but Holy Light! We died.
brittwilson May 6th 2009 11:07PM
I love the picture you choose. i love pugs, I had two of them back at home, they are that ugly adorable that is just amazing.
Maximize May 11th 2009 5:34PM
I would say puggable is when something can be done with random 80s (who are sufficiently geared) 25% of the time or more. Ulduar would currently be possible for slightly greater than 0% of pugs. Heroic Nexus can be done with nearly 100% of pugs.
The line currently seems to be Naxx 25. A little less than 50% of pugs seem to be able to get it down in one trip.
I predict that without significant nerfs to current content Ulduar will not be puggable with level 80's. Most of the fights are simply too unforgiving of the kind of mistakes that are common in pugs. (Hell, the last time I was in OS 25 about half of the raid got hit with a wave at least once.)
jagannooni May 7th 2009 1:17AM
We cleared yogg as a pug on monday night. It took a while but it happened. The raiders in the pug were exceptional, but were picked up from trade chat.
Richârd May 7th 2009 9:52AM
I have successfully PUGged:
Naxx 25
OS 10 / 25 (with 1 drake up on 25)
VoA 10 / 25 (Not since Emalon came along though)
Ulduar 25 (Downed FL, Ignis).
Currently working on putting my own PUG together for 25 Maly.
I'm on a PvE server. It's all about the groups you find yourself in. Just because I listed all that doesn't mean I haven't had my share of fail PUGs. The more good PUSs I'm in though, the easier the bad ones are to spot and leave before I get Saved. And when it comes to leaving a bad PUG, I have no qualms telling them know why. Not like I want to PUG with them again.
KilgoreTrout XL May 7th 2009 10:12AM
I pugged EoE 25 last night. No major problems. The leader asked if anyone hadn't been there before, and while no one spoke I think a couple people thought they could figure it out as they went. They died, but don't need all 25 to make it to P3.
I think OS is harder to pug now because the flame waves are invisible.
BishopNelson May 7th 2009 10:22AM
A request for courtesy when dropping people from a pug.
I don't mind people heavily screening pug members, but I just ask that people communicate to you when dropping you from a group. I've had people add me to a pug raid and then drop me before it starts without a word. While my gear isn't great (hence the need for raiding), I'm not trying to go into these things with quest greens or anything. I understand the need to be selective with pugs, but it goes a long way to quickly tell people, "Sorry, your gear isn't good enough. We're dropping you from the raid".
Popezaren May 7th 2009 12:11PM
With reference to Pug Leaders...
(they) "rather take along someone who's already done the content than worry about pulling newbies through. "
It must be so wonderful to forget that you where once a noob yourself. That because you had classes, a job and/or a life that you could not devote a large block of time to WoW. :)
I have a couple of 80's, however my schedule does not allow for raiding exclusively. My experience with pugs is that some don't even use Omen to track what everyone is doing. It just gets me how picky some of these groups are supposed to be, when if they where that great...they'd be there with their guild.
Also, just because you have the achievement....it doesn't mean that YOU were an asset to the group. You could have been the noob along for the ride at the time that the achievement was had. ;)
Its nice you can find out all this info about a toon/player, but what it really comes down to is teamwork. If you have an 80 toon, you should be a good player by now. Otherwise, you should just go mining/herbing/skinning.
Zanrok May 7th 2009 12:45PM
Not trying to be cocky, but I personally lead Pug's for every content in the game including 3 Drake, Malygos 6 mins, Vault, and Ulduar 25.
The pugs I lead not only clear the content, but clear it fast. For instance when 25 naxx came out, my pug was considered the 4th progressed "guild" on the server for content.
Currently we are 10/13 in Ulduar 25 and I expect to clear the entire instance with a pug in the coming weeks.
It does not matter if the content is new, old or challenging. EVERYTHING CAN BE PUGGED.
All it takes it a competent leader, a ventrilo server and people who actually pay attention.
Don't believe me? Transfer to KJ and join one of my pugs.
tk3030 May 7th 2009 6:17PM
I would venture to say what you're running isn't a PuG then, but a raid alliance. If you regularly run with the same people, under organized leadership, it's not any different than running with a guild other than the names in brackets over people's heads. I run one, too. (9th on our server. )
A PuG to me is 25 people who don't know each other.
Daymon May 7th 2009 2:38PM
I've known pugs better than guild runs, in a guild run you get lazy ppl, slow ppl and afk ppl that despite the attitude "might" get a 2nd chance and not get kicked of the run. In a pug that doesnt happen, 2min afk/dc and you are out baby, you came in blues/greens you're out, you don't even put 2k dps, you are out, therefore ppl try their best to impress. Another thing is loot, in a guild run you compite w the loot system, and sometimes ppl know is not their turn in looting, so they slack. In a pug is basically free roll, so ppl are eager to kill the boss.
And BTW Ulduar 10 is very puggable, 25 is other thing. 3D OS is also puggable, only by a good leader w right conections.
Edward May 7th 2009 3:47PM
If this article was intended to simply fill a spot on the page then you have my regards on your accomplishment.
Nax 25, Vault 25, Os 25, were all pugged on their first week. Our group did take 3 weeks to fully clear Nax 25 as a pug however it was a different group on each occasion. We have pugged 2 drake Sarth 25, though have yet do down 3D with a pug though amazingly close.
Regarding Ulduar, this was pugged on its opening week to 7/14 and on 25 man 6/14.
Please realize, nothing has changed in the contentline. It is quite apparent that Ulduar is no less then the same watered down content we saw with the Naxx and T7.
The real question is why do we have guild groups raiding 5 nights per week that have yet to progress to the level of the pugs that have been running Ulduar since day 1.
gaz May 8th 2009 7:07AM
There are all kinds of guilds just like any organized group of people. Why should you be surprised if some guild raids arent as successful as a PUG raid that just happens to contain a solid cadre of competent players either through luck or intention.
If you carefully screen your PUG for gear or competency then you are already doing more pre-raid prep than most guilds.