Well, your complete disregard for improving yourself is worsening the game for people around you, if you raid.

Many of my guildies say the same thing.

And then we tell them not to cry whilst cheering from the sidelines while those specced for maximum DPS/HPS/TPS have fun in Ulduar.

@RetPallyJil

You seem to have a rather inflated sence of self importance when it comes to your spec. You act as if any of us will care that you don't spec in the optimal way.

You are not in a group with me, you are not raiding with me, therefore I don't care. Be aware however that you are playing the game with people other than yourself and that your actions directly effect theirs.

If you don't want people who you group with complaining about your spec you can do one of two things. Fix it or stop joining groups because you seem to hold little respect for others.

I think people are being a bit too sensitive with this. A lot of the time, it's quite easy to make the case for your spec if you can back it up. For example, a hunter nerfing their own damage so their pet dies less, and they waste less time rezzing it and don't lose its DPS, or people who tweak their spec to compensate for their latency, or healers who prefer losing a bit of spell power for an extra situational emergency button, or anyone nerfing themselves to buff the raid. A good raid leader is going to have you respec when you've shown that the spec you want can't do what the guild needs.

Furthermore, honestly, I know it's not always true, but a lot of the time people who respec don't notice any overall difference in their enjoyment of their spec. If you do, you have to find a spec that can do what the raid needs, or sit out and do 5 mans or easier content.

I commend you on your epic trolling btw

"I think people are being a bit too sensitive with this."

Truth. There is flexability to specs. You just have to be able to back up why you did it. As long as you have a solid justification, that's fine.

As a prot warrior, I can personally think of around 10 different viable specs using the extra 10 or so points, which don't have a very strong home in the talent tree.

That being said, there are also crucial talents in any talent tree, and terrible talents. I would be extremely dubious of any warrior, trying to argue why they took Puncture, in the same way that I would be dubious of one who skipped Anticipation.

But Improved Demoralizing Shout isn't a cookie cutter talent, but I could understand someone taking it, if they make a good argument for it. Ditto for Iron Will, or Improved Spell Reflect, yada yada etc.

You just need to show you understand your talents.

Odds are, if someone is complaining about your spec, it's because it's fairly obvious from looking at it, that you don't understand your talent trees.

above.
We are about 7 raiding arcane mages in my guild, and all the speccs are diferent (in those "hey, go for it points").
But... an arcane mage will always go to a raid instead of a frost mage, as we raid we want to acomplish and objective, we're pretty much representing the guild, and our objetive is to kill something, and that objective should not suffer from one member personal choice. (taking this example) wanna stay frost? well, if its a mana intensive fight, the group will be glad to take you, otherwise, if it isnt... well, as you said, you decide want you want, you dont decide we're people will take you

Here's my opinion on choosing your own talent spec:

- If you're doing your own thing, running PuGs, 5-man dungeons and generally enjoying casual content like the Argent Tournament, and you're ENJOYING the game, more power to you. You're certainly a lot better off than the people who are miserable and play for loot or the "prestige" of hard-mode achievements and titles.

- BUT, if you're in my raid, and we're tackling something like OS3D or Ulduar progression, you have an obligation to the 24 other people in the raid to maximize your DPS. I'm not a regular raid leader, but I do run specific hard-mode encounter raids, and my rule is that DPS produce a minimum of 3k DPS in a 25-man setting. That's a very forgiving minimum, considering the multitude of buffs, debuffs and procs that you'll be getting in a 25-man raid. Point is, when you're in a 25-man raid and part of a team that's pushing "hard mode" content, you now have a responsibility to properly itemize, gem, and max out your DPS through talents.

Last night, I ran heroic UP to get my last Children's Week achievement, and the Warlock in the group was doing 900 DPS, while the Rogue in the group was doing between 1200 and 1300 DPS.

When we wiped on Skadi, you'd better believe I said something about the other two DPS -- I said it politely and diplomatically, but I let them know the reason we were wiping was because they were not pulling their own weight.

The Rogue didn't have anything gemmed or enchanted, and the Warlock was in FULL LEVEL 80 EPICS and, inexplicably, was doing 900 DPS. When I looked at the debuffs on the bosses and mobs, there were no DoTs on them.

That's outright laziness, it's disrespectful to the other members of the group, and it's disrespectful to the raiders who helped that Warlock get the gear she has if she's not putting it to good use. To me, it's no different than repeatedly refusing to run back after wipes and expecting the healer or hybrids to resurrect you. Pure laziness and disrespect.

Well, you are free to spec as you wish of course. On the other hand, if your spec is ineffective, people will choose not to take you on raids.

It's a balance between freedom and efficiency. You may want the freedom to choose your spec as you like. Raiders want you to be effective in your role.

Ultimately your choice of course, and of course *random* tells really are nothing but spam

Not really nerd rage but when your in a group of 25 people the old I'm paying go shove it up your nose attitude doesn't work unless you paying for those 25 people as well. I am a mage so I DPS, food and portal. The last two don't have talents so you are really letting people down if you aren't doing the best DPS you can.

you're free to spec however you want while solo. but if you decide to group with someone for a raid, or in a raiding guild then your fun directly impacts theirs. if you're doing abysmal damage, or dying all the time, etc. then its their choice to boot you out because you decided to play an inneffective spec. play solo however you like, but when you locks come into my raid and let your pet do all the damage while you sit back and use your wand and drain life because thats how you play, i'm still free to kick you out.

So where is my copy of this social contract that I signed?

If done with tact, there's no reason that a class leader should not point out where someone's spec, gear or playstyle needs to be improved. However, it seems that most of them adopt the 'my way or the highway' attitude. (I'm basing this on all the "it's ok to demand that someone change their spec or else" posts that I have seen here and on other forums)

You want someone to change their spec? Be prepared to back up your argument with more than, "This is how all our {insert class here} spec".

What this all boils down to is this... unless you are a sponsored guild that is getting paid to be the best, noone has the right to exclude someone else from end game content based on arbitrary criteria. After all, the person in question was good enought to be invited into 'your' guild in the first place....

@vinniedcleaner

"What this all boils down to is this... unless you are a sponsored guild that is getting paid to be the best, noone has the right to exclude someone else from end game content based on arbitrary criteria. After all, the person in question was good enought to be invited into 'your' guild in the first place...."

Actually, a guild leader has any right to exclude you from end game content for any reason they want. They are the leader, it's their (not 'their') guild. Guilds are not a democracy.

Nobody can exclude you from end game content. They can just ask that you do end game content with someone else. If you don't like it, go find a guild with a leader who seems reasonable to you.

@ lolret

Considering that you are a Ret pally to begin with says it all. You do not have to join a serious raiding guild, but if you want to be a serious raider then you and that mage will have to conform to the guidelines set forth by your class leader or you will probably face /gkick along with whoever recruited you. In your case it will probably be Prot / Holy since most guilds will need Heals or Tanks more than they need a subpar Dpser. Guess what you will have to become a team player instead of an individual or enjoy that pug raid that will also want you to spec Holy or Prot :)

I agree with others, i've been playing for years almost exclusively as dps. If you are in a guild that wants to progress, you really owe it to them to bring the most you can. If its a respec, fine. If its consumables, buffs, enchants, whatever. Do it. Don't spend a thousand gold to get 10 dps, but do it to get 100 dps or more.

IF you aren't in such a guild, do whatever the hell you want.

Lastly dps really really depends on alot of factors. If you are smart, you will look at the boss fight dps in raids, and overall dps in heroics.

For example, in naxx25 i get absurdly high dps in trash because I just volley everything.

In heroics I get decent dps on trash, but just meh on bosses. The trash is the important stuff there for not well geared tanks/healers.

Last night we ran heroic HOL. The lock usually did