[1.Local]: To agree, to disagree, or to agree to disagree

Flamers and trolls aside, WoW Insider readers are generally a contentious lot. Their viewpoints are as divergent as the player demographics the site attracts – all types of players, from the casual to the hardcore. With this many angles to consider, WoW Insider becomes a melting pot of ideas and opinions, from the sublime to the ridiculous. (And let's face it – some of the so-called ridiculous ideas are the most entertaining to read.)
Yet this week, readers seemed to be more often of one mind than not – whether that agreement was ultimately to agree over the topic at hand or to agree to disagree. [1.Local] highlights several reader conversations that made the radar this week.
| Are PuG raiders disposable? Readers agree: while guild-only raids are a good thing, dumping PuG players for latecoming guildies is not. "As someone who often PUGs due to my unstable schedule, I have to say that there are guilds who treat me like an extension of their guild," wrote Forcepath. "And I appreciate it. They know that 50% of the time, their guildmates aren't reliable enough that they can expect them to come to *another* Naxx-25, and that's where I come in. Myself and other PuGs are the reason some guilds can do Naxx-25, and the more that you treat PuG players well, the more often you can throw them on your friends list and say 'Hey, we're one man short -- wanna run Naxx-25? "While I respect people who like guild-only runs, I personally am of the opinion that you shouldn't make a habit of kicking PUGs for guildies. As the OP says, it hurts your guild relations with the server (and that should probably be important to you) -- and it really is a jerk thing to do." |
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| Curtains for vanilla WoW Leveling alts can seem boring and repetitive. Should Blizzard crank up leveling speed even more, offer ways to skip early levels, or even (gasp!) do away with Old World content altogether? New players say they enjoy the content. "'Vanilla' WoW isn't vanilla when you're a new player – it's only that way if you've experienced the content before," said Frank. "Blizzard is right to leave it as-is for new players. Catering to the end-game people only would hurt the game in the long run, because there wouldn't be any way to get new people into playing." At any rate, we would have to agree with this declaration from Aldheim: "Any man who would trade the Scarlet Monastery for quicker leveling deserves neither!" "I think those who are pining for the Old World have to realize it isn't the same," observed email. "When I started my first 'toon, there were easily a dozen people who had just started with me. I felt like it was a world. I recently recruited a friend, and he honestly hadn't seen another character until I took him to Orgrimmar at level 15. It has changed a lot. The old dungeons are amazing, and I enjoy running around with our 'Muppet babies' and doing Old World content, but it isn't the same without tons of other people with you. "I think what we all need is WoW 2 so everyone can get a taste of what it's like when everyone is on the same page starting." Established players observe that maybe the idea that "the game begins at 80" sends the wrong message. "Sounds to me like folks need to go and play an FPS," concluded Plastic Rat. "If you hate leveling new characters, you hate running through Old World instances, and you hate gearing up, you're playing the wrong kind of game! "I really wish the huge glut of ADHD kiddies drawn to this game with its increase in popularity will just hurry up and get bored so they can move on to 'The Next Big Thing,' and the rest of us can continue playing the MMO we want to play. I'm sick of game play being dictated by a bunch of people who think they want to play an MMORPG but actually want an action FPS." "I'm going out on a limb here and feel the need to remind people that they're playing an RPG, which is about story and progression and all those other things that seem to get buried under the insistence that 'The end game is the game!'" agreed TemplarW20. "If you think everything should be static save the gear/powers/whatever you get from the raiding/PVP content, then maybe you should do as suggested above and look into the many FPS games that are available today." |
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| WI interviews WoW lead designer Tom Chilton The possibility of player housing was top of mind for many who checked out WoW Insider's exclusive interview with Lead Developer Tom Chilton (aka Kalgan). But others simply don't get the fascination. Sl0th explained: "Player housing appeals in different ways to different people. Moreover, it really depends on the setup of a game's systems as to whether there are practical draws involved. Historically, storage is a major draw of housing in an MMO. However, the sheer size of one's bank space in WoW coupled the numerous other ways to store non-soulbound items negates that draw. "Another idea housing is good for is to open a player-run shop. But, again, WoW has a built-in system in the form of the Auction House that would make it unnecessary, if not impractical. "I think the biggest draw, given the lack of practical applications, is to have a personalized place to come home to. It would be interesting if one could put things on display in a house. For instance, many people keep select pieces of old gear in their banks. I, for one, have a bunch of old BC tier pieces littering my main's bank along with a few odd pieces of gear I couldn't bring myself to part with. A house could be used to display that gear. But the novelty would wear off rapidly for most people were that the only application for a house. And one has to ask themselves how eager a player would be, aside from a Mage, to move their hearth stones from travel hubs like Shattrath or Dalaran to a home that will likely not have easy access to city portals? I'd wager not likely. "In the end, to answer Rylia's question, the draw of a player housing, for WoW anyway, boils down to pure vanity. It would not serve anywhere near as practical a purpose in WoW as it does in other games. They will likely one day add some sort of housing system, be it for individual players/accounts or guild halls. But it seems, to me anyhow, completely reasonable that they haven't made it a priority." |
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| Readers gain Bloodlust over giving Bloodlust to Rogues Readers were much more divided over the possibilities of giving a Bloodlust-like buff to Rogues. "I'm amazed at how many people are having hostile reactions to this idea," observed Sl0th (who evidently had a lot to say this week). "I think an armor penetration buff/debuff or even a critical strike boosting buff/debuff would fit far better with Rogue if they need more raid utility. Let the Shamans keep their Bloodlust/Heroism. Even with the new philosophy, classes should still retain at least one or two buffs that are all their own." |
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| Readers respond to add-on scuffle There was plenty of strong reaction in the comments to this post about the Curse and WoW Interface vs WoWMatrix scuffle. Mr Magoo shared his view: "If was a more paranoid man, I would think Curse or WoW Interface people were posting here also. :) It seems like a clear-cut case of two businesses fighting it out, as is perfectly normal in the real world. The only weird bit is that their little fist fight has spilled out onto the street and everybody is pointing, laughing and shouting opinions. In the end, all that is going to happen is people will get/have got hurt, and the world will forget and move on. "(Customers) are electrons. They take the shortest path. Whatever is easiest. 99% of them don't pay diddly and won't. Many would pirate the add-ons if they could. (P2P) Most could not give a toss about the add-on devs or their hard work (until it is gone, of course, and then they will cry). However, there are a core set of 'philanthropists' that WILL donate/pay and DO care. There are also some that would pay if there was a good reason to -- currently there is none. This is the market that this whole thing is about." "WoW Matrix seems to provide the better client, as far as most of the public is concerned, and it runs well on any of the platforms people care about. They are effectively free, also, which is important and appears to only care about donations and delivering add-ons in the quickest and least fuss way possible (i.e., what the customer wants). The bad thing is that WM does not seem to care about the add-on guys or hosters at all. They can bellyache all they want about it, but the fact remains they were leeching and removing the revenue stream that others were counting on to host/develop their products. It also appears they were rather arrogant and naive on this point as to what could be done to stop them. In this case, I call that WM got what you would expect. (NB: I am not using the word "deserve" on purposed - that has no meaning in business! :) ) "The Curse client has, in the past, lost out to WM in all respects. I am using their current client (on Win), and to be honest, I can't see anything wrong with it. It works for me and is prettier than WM. I know Mac users are getting it rough. "However, the main difference with Curse is that everything they do and say screams the fact that they are a slavering dog just chafing at the bit to create a situation where I am forced to give them money for hosting other people's hard work. I am sure they pay them a 'cut' and, like always, I am sure this cut is unfairly small since they, like the RIAA/MPAA, control the supply chain (for now, anyway, since WM has been hamstrung). Currently they are 'coercive' in that they are restricting bandwidth and features so forth to nonpaying customers, and I personally have no problem with this. I doubt if they actually manage to ruin WM that it will continue like this. They 'cunningly' used the 3.1 patch to launch their client/premium service and attack WM. One expects that they would continue in this vein once WM was gone. "I don't think they are 'evil,' as this is just business. But in the spirit of the free market, I would warn against allowing Curse to become a monopoly of any sort. They tend to be ugly, expensive and ultimately terrible for consumers. "WoW has laid down the law (or tried to) on this and made it clear that they want add-ons to be totally non-commerical ventures. Even donation buttons are out. As much as this is a threat to Curse, it could also be a massive win if they are smart enough. Many add-on devs will be throwing up their hands and go GPL as they are forced to open their source (whether they like it or not). However, Curse's revenue sharing could now become the main or even ONLY way for add-on devs to spin some cash for all their hard work. They could even allow the devs to put a donation button on things to boot. :) This would attrach addon devs like flies, I would imagine, and simultaneously block out WM, as they have a very good reason NOT to go GPL/etc and allow anyone to host their work. "Hey, it is what I would do if I was stupid enough to try and make this a business. :)" |
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| Is 3.1 content boring? In the end, whether readers agreed, or agreed to disagree, or fought tooth and nail to defend their own views, the discussion was the best part. "... I think we also need to remember that this is 3.1, not 3.3 that we're experiencing," wrote d503 in this analysis of patch 3.1 content. "The SWP patch and all its content was 2.4! The AQ patch was the also the third major instance to come out in the vanilla cycle. Clearly, we're building to something bigger here, and I don't expect that Blizzard would be able to turn around a 2.4-quality patch for every revision. "That being said, I still disagree on the Argent Tournament. I think it's fun! I think Blizz identified that they needed to create a set of easy-to-do, conveniently located, and differently approached dailies that would help raiders offset the cost of raiding. I know doing my AT dailies prevents me having to reach into my coffers after a wipe. "I would like to see PvP jousting at some point, where you could queue up like Arenas or something, that would at least make the game play of jousting more interesting. Maybe that's planned for the next phase of AT. "Anyway, foot is out of mouth ... but the article was still pretty inflammatory! Thanks for keeping the spark alive. :)" |
Filed under: Rogue, Shaman, Analysis / Opinion, Features, [1.Local]






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Keyra May 10th 2009 3:16PM
They had better not nerf, nor do away with Vanilla WoW. I have fond (and not-so-fond) memories of these quests...but they were fun, will still be fun for the new player, and if they're removed the game will just...lose something.
I AM, however, sick of all of this end-game-only crap. Yes, I have a character who's sitting at just under level 70. I took my time getting her there. But there is so much more to the game than just defeating the "ultimate boss". It's a rich game, filled with spectacular art, but no...every one is just "LEVEL! KILL! WIN!"...even here on WI for the most part.
Dave May 10th 2009 3:28PM
Yeah but honestly, once you've done it twice, three times, four or more... is it REALLY still that exciting?
I can't imagine how much pot I'd have to smoke to make leveling in Feralas interesting again. It's just not going to happen 4 years and 5 60's later.
I totally agree that every NEW player should have to go through it (and lets be honest you leveled solo until you got to 60 for the first time if you're the typical player). But for the veteran players? I mean once you do the starting zone for each race it's really, really boring to re-do the exact same thing over and over.... and honestly the focus on development IS the endgame so it's not really shocking that people want greater access to it.
If it didn't break the game to have DK's start at 55, it wouldn't break anything to have me be able to start a new Shaman at 55 and at least only have to slag through 2 expansions worth of the same junk rather than the whole thing. As long as you've got an 80 (or 55? what is it for a new dk?) it shouldn't be a big deal at all. if Blizzard would even start charging $10-20 for the ability to do it, we'd all win.
vazhkatsi May 10th 2009 3:53PM
problem-if no veteran players were doing old content, it would rapidly become even more deserted, and real newbies would become bored because of lack of interaction with anyone of their level. what if you couldn't do any instances because most players start at 55. in the end a 55 start would hurt blizz.
whowhatme May 10th 2009 4:45PM
it's like pulling teeth to get together a group for one of the old world instances like ZF, stocks, SM, scholo/strat. and when you DO get a group together, one person always drops out, and then one dude decides to bring in their 80 to roflstomp the instance. NOT FUN. I want to learn how to play a healer before i'm running UK or nexus and wiping my group :(
sooper May 10th 2009 9:56PM
Blizzard should totally turn old world instances into something queuable like they do with the BG's. Instead of scrounging for players on your realm, maybe they could reach across the battlegroup.
Man that would bring the that old content alive and keep it bustling.
Docp May 10th 2009 11:47PM
The problem is, you have to compare it to the other MMO's out there. The vanilla content is 4 years old now and it shows, almost all the quests are of the basic variety, i.e. kill this, collect that, go there. When you compare this to say, Warhammer, which in the first ten levels will have you firing vehicles, massive group quests and access to pvp with a buff to make you competitive, Vanilla wow really does look dated.
There's also a limit to how many exp buffs you can add to that content as well, eventually you move through the content that you get no feel for the game, you outlevel your gear and the game feels really disjointed and unpolished.
John Bender May 10th 2009 3:48PM
If you have a lvl 80, you've seen the content. Why do I have to level to 55 again?
I agree that if you're new you need to see the content, but there are few people in the old world anyway, and I don't need to see said content. I just want to try out a different game mechanic.
A1CYancy May 10th 2009 5:52PM
leveling to 80 also helps you learn your character's abilities. Leveling to 80 as a warrior is quite different than an 80 mage. Why else would the give you new spells and abilities over time? Think what it'd be like if you could AOE grind at level 1. I PREFER to level my toons because I WANT to learn how to play them instead of getting spoon fed every bit of the game. I want to know what to do when the boss fight doesn't go quite right and suddenly I can't rely on the wowwiki for my how- to guide. There's too many players who play but do not excel. Spoon feed them a 55 toon and you make that even worse.
If anything, they need more leveling areas. Make some new areas to level a little. I've leveled my 5th toon I think through the barrens now. It gets a bit boring. Or even just some new quest lines. Alot has happened story line wise. Why not let some trickle down to Azeroth ?
Eisengel May 10th 2009 8:33PM
I agree entirely. Take your level 80 and go back to the Barrens and run 3 to 6 quests that you hadn't finished before.... then go to Howling Fjord or Borean Tundra and do a few leftover quests. The difference in the Vanilla questing and the Wrath questing is night and day. Rather than nuking Vanilla... I'd very much like to see a slow, incremental effort to apply the lessons learned through Vanilla, BC and Wrath to the older content. Rather than ratcheting up the patch release time so that we all have to drive full speed downing content on our 80s to stay on the progression curve, putting a team on updating old Azeroth and Outlands quests, and areas would be very nice.
Often when GC makes arguments about doing things for the 'good of the game' I chuckle... since it is almost always focused on level 80s on the 25 man progression track, or level 80s in the high Arena progression. In other words, it seems nearly all the developer attention is on the top progression tracks.
It seems that with Wrath, Blizzard is wagging the dog. Rather than split their development team up to work on, improve, and add to Vanilla, Outland and Northrend, they instead made leveling easier, gearing easier and heroics easier, so that everyone can cluster up into the top progression areas of the game... so that Blizzard can develop things they way they always have, but now 70% or more of the player base is seeing it rather than 5% at most. While I'm glad they did make that change, I wish they would take a long, hard look at the way they develop and sincerely ask themselves the questions: "with all we've learned, is Azeroth the best it can be?", "with all we've learned is Outland the best it can be?"... and if the answer is 'no', to put some work on it.
Until they can see that Azeroth and Outland are just as important as Northrend, I'll always regard Blizzard as one-off developer, and WoW as a monster of the week outfit.
The new phasing technology, and the reuse of Azeroth areas is promising. I really hope that Blizzard continues this trend, and increases their focus and development effort in less-than-bleeding-edge-content areas, to improve the game, the entire game, and not just the little bit that all the max levels are clustered around in.
turkeyspit May 10th 2009 3:50PM
Reading that bit about giving Blust/Heroism to Rogues made me throw up, just a little bit.
Rogues need more Raid Utility? They are one (if not THE) highest DPS'ing classes running around today.
Nobody with a brain would dispute that Rogues got boned in Tier 7, but that's because Blizz had their pimply-faced 1st year interns working on it, while all the talented nerds are working on their new MMO.
But that's all fixed now. Rogues are once more on top of the pig pile of DPS - and what more utility do you need? Whether they stay on top or not depends on how well they scale into Tier 9.
ledfloyd May 10th 2009 4:09PM
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"Keyra said...
They had better not nerf, ..... Vanilla WoW"
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uh too late.
most of the non-instance elites are gone; Stromgarde, Jintha'Alor, Stonewatch etc.
Blizz even made levelling from 1-60 15% quicker XP-wise.
30th Lvl mounts.
No more 'secondary" profession books or quests.
Keyra May 10th 2009 8:20PM
I'll admit, I haven't rolled a new alt to find out...so, that ball's already in play, eh? Figures...
/sigh
Zuggins May 10th 2009 4:14PM
I agree with Kayra....all of my toons are under level 70, and I could give a rat's ass less about "end game content". Sure it's great to discover new content in the game, but not everyone is playing just to kill the latest boss. I like the "vanilla" WoW just as it is.
mikesora May 10th 2009 9:04PM
I think the reason vanilla wow is so boring is because of two reaosns. First it becomes extremely repetive, add an occasional new quest line to be in tune with the newer content, for example why worry about the silithid if an army of undead plans to eradicate the whole world. Granted the silithid is still a threat but not the biggest one.
Second I think the biggest reason it is so dull is because of the lack of players filling the zones... you can find more people in dalaran alone most of the time than u can in a whole continent maybe even both. Blizzard needs to find a way to fill it up, build interaction in a zone even if its npc buddies that level with you or something ... I don't think characters should start at 55, I mean look at dks, 3 out of 4 players barely know how to play them. If they can make people wanna level again of maybe find a way to makes temporarily xx lvl again to help their friends, ( I know gear, talents, and etc. Will make this difficult) but imagine doing your favorite zone or instance again without 1shotting everyone with your favorite class and without leveling one again... sure these ideas have flaws but blizzard could make it work, the same way they made hero classes work even if dks were hectic and op at first...
Bad Wolf May 10th 2009 10:11PM
I am in two mind sets of vanilla WoW... Whilst levelling in WoW can get a bit tedious sometimes people forget that Blizzard has made it so much easier! I remember tearing my hair out when i heard that levelling from 1-60 (then later 61-70) would be made faster and that non-elite sections in zones (that troll place in the hinterlands for example) had been done away with. But a problem presents itself in the fact that WHY should everything be made easier just for people who can't accept that if they want endgame content, they have to work for it?
Despite being made easier to level in WoW I do think that Blizzard needs to seriously think about redesigning quests for vanilla content (increasing quest drop rates) and add some things to the old continents to draw people back to it or make it less tedious. For example, heroic old world dungeons such as Strath/Scholo would be BRILLIANT seeing as it ties in with LK story. Another area like IoQ, phasing in old zones to introduce new higher level quests to previous zones *silithus, plaguelands ect...) and for gods sake, flying mounts in old continent or at least some form of steroid-infused ground mount! Yes it wouldn't be easy for blizz to do all of this (especially the flying mounts in vanilla content, massive patch up to the 3D design ect.) BUT it would make the older content a lot more attractive and it would be 'epic w!n'
The worst move of all would be to 'skip' levels. I completely agree with A1CYancy , you learn your class during the levels. If were able to start skipping levels god forbid the n00b populace would increase ten fold (no offense to any new players)! If all else fails... create a hordey if you play ally or vice versa. Thats just about starting from scratch. :)
tano May 10th 2009 11:37PM
nice article
Sinthar May 11th 2009 5:52AM
I have to agree with other posters, after lvling a few alts, and gaining loremaster on one, i feel i have seen and done most of the quests available. I have even tried lvling the opposite faction. New quests are needed to spark any new interest in vanila wow.
My personal suggestion is to move some things about.
In some of the lesser visted areas, with low quest 'denisty', you could say have a 'elemental invasion' (possibly a mini world event?), and move the best grinding areas from northrend (WG area) to say silithus, and generate a new quest chain line for that (please no more fed ex q's tho, reporting some ele's have appeared pinging accross continents is NOT fun). This would also hopefully clear WG out a bit so it MAY even be possible to cast an instant spell in less than one minute.
dameblanche May 11th 2009 10:12AM
I am always fascinated by people who complain about how boring it is to see old content for the second or third time while leveling a new alt.
Personally, if the game would only consist of end-game raiding, I'd cancel my subscription. Before the end of TBC, I was totally sick of Kara. And still I will not enter that place again; the mere idea of having to see Moroes for the umpteenth time, makes me faint from boredom.
I have leveled a lot of alts, and I am always filled with happiness when I see my good old friend Hogger again after a few months. Or when I get to shoot the sea monster in Theramore again. Or when I get to do Zul'Farrak again.
Some more new quests for low levels would be nice though. The idea other people here have to mix end game lore with the low level area's sounds very appealing. Also because at the moment the game has a lot of dead zones like Silithus and Shattrat. And kudos to the person who invents a plan that makes me want to visit Desolace again.
Deadly. Off. Topic. May 11th 2009 12:01PM
The problem isn’t that it’s boring. It’s that people are lazy and want stuff handed to them so they create this elaborate excuse of how much work it is and that it must be boring to go through it again. See, I could understand that comment if you were making it to Guild Wars, but not WoW. The wow world is huge and going through it on an alt and doing a DIFFERENT area for leveling is a new experience. There’s several leveling areas per level frame so that a person can pick and chose where they’re going. It’s just the fact that people want characters handed to them and don’t want to put the effort in.
fuzz May 12th 2009 1:20PM
what you fail to realize is that some people had to go to all of the zones to level at one point. There is nothing "new" in old world for me. If there was I would go. I personally think that blizz should pick up some old storylines and run with them, whatever happened to the defias, you get thru stockades and you don't see them anymore. Give me a heroic deadmines, Give me ANY reason to go back to old world. I came thru wow 4 years ago when getting to 60 took 6+ months and an insane amount of scholo and strat runs to get any gear. I remember when the only epic i had was my mount and it took 4 months of farming to get that damn thing.