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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsGC on Hunters and their DPS
by Mike Schramm 
May 11th 2009 at 6:30PM
It took a few tries, but Ghostcrawler has finally agreed to post a "state of the Hunters" on the forums, and there's both good and bad news. First of all, GC flatly lays out that Hunter DPS was too high in Naxx -- Blizzard wants Hunters to be fighting with Locks, Rogues, and Mages for top DPS, not head and shoulders above them. And Survival is still the top DPS build in PvE; while GC says it's probably not a huge increase from the other specs, they are seeing it do better consistently. That said, Hunter DPS may be a little low now, but Blizzard isn't quite sure, for two reasons. First, people are still learning the Ulduar fights, and they don't completely trust the data they've gotten so far. And second, the main goal for fights in there was supposed to be variety, so there are very few places where DPS can just go all out and test how powerful they really are. GC says you should be asking "what's my DPS in this fight," rather than just "what's my DPS?"As for PvP, he says that the T.N.T. stuns and the big mana drains that Hunters could pull off in the past were just plain overpowered, and they won't be coming back. But as for where Hunters are going next, he says it's more of a function of nerfing other classes rather than buffing Hunters -- it's not that Hunters aren't going into Arena because they suck, it's because other classes are taking their place because they're better. He does say that Hunters are better in 5v5 (which makes sense -- Hunters have always been better from the back rather than forced into the middle of things like they might be in 3v3, and 2v2), and Blizzard is fairly OK with that, as not all classes are going to rock at all Arena levels.
Players, for the most part, are grudgingly agreeing -- T.N.T. stuns were pretty off the hook, and no one argues that Hunters weren't a little too powerful in Naxx. And keep in mind that there are still melee changes in the plans for Hunters: most of the complaints in the thread say that Hunters need more mobility and CC options, and certainly buffing their melee choices a bit would help with that. But we'll have to see what happens here -- I think GC is most insightful when he says that the problem with Hunters isn't necessarily Hunters, it's what other classes have been given lately. He does mention one change they might make (Marksman is mostly having an issue with mana management, so they could definitely buff the mana there a little bit), but it seems like there needs to be a little more smoothing in terms of where other classes are before we can clearly see where the issues lie with Hunters.
Filed under: Hunter, Analysis / Opinion, Fan stuff, Odds and ends, Blizzard, Instances, Arena
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
khalkaroth May 11th 2009 7:00PM
Basically we're at the same point as rogues were in 3.0, there is nothing (spec/rotation/etc) we can do to be anything better than middle of the pack DPS wise in PVE. They basically gave in to all the QQ in a PVP setting but in the mean time broke us again in PVE.
Classic example is that as a SV hunter there is now a shot in my rotation called Black Arrow. It does a shadow DOT for 15sec out of every 30sec (with 3 talent points invested it can be 15/24sec), it also increases damage done by me while applied for 6% so it's a pretty decent tool. Problem is that it shares its cooldown with all traps so in a PVE environment I have to make a decision on whether I want to help control the mobs or do a little more DPS.
On fights like XT or Mimiron where I am on add duty you can forget about using it. It just doesn't make sense to me to take away the one big utility that makes a hunter a hunter (TRAPS), you can forget about me throwing a freezing trap to save a healer/clothie because I guarantee it will be on cooldown by using Black Arrow. Just dumb...
Bill May 11th 2009 7:33PM
Hunters were OP in Naxx at the beginning, but as soon as other DPS classes started to get gear, it was a different ball game. The gear scaling was more effective for other DPS and some hybrids than for hunters.
By saying that all hunters do is QQ is laughable. I have read enough of the other forums to realize that QQ is not exclusive to hunters. Heck, looking at the lock forums, you would think they are all cutters by how much pain they claim to be in.
The Claw May 11th 2009 7:52PM
Agreed Bill, saying that hunters are bigger QQers than other classes is like saying that the Atlantic Ocean is wetter than the Indian or Pacific Oceans. The quantities of QQ from every single class in the game are near infinite.
Wulfhere May 11th 2009 6:57PM
You'll notice when talking about Patchwerk style fights in Ulduar, GC specifically says that XT - 002 is a 'rogue and cat druid's dream" - basically, it's fine for a hybrid to do as much DPS as a pure class, as long as it's not a warrior. Before the savage nerfing to fury, warriors loved fights like XT, and now they can't even perform as well as another hybrid.
This is why I switched to pally. We actually can tank, DPS or heal as well as anyone, we're not second rate and told we're lucky to be there. I pity warriors because they're just plain useless, I'll never level mine to 70, much less 80.
Sure, Ret gets hit a lot in PvP, but I don't PvP anyway.
uncaringbear May 11th 2009 7:24PM
Hunter DPS in Naxx was incredibly OP. We have noticed that it's more down-to-earth in Ulduar, but that clearly indicates that some underlying mechanic is not balanced. To a lesser extent, I think the same could be said for warrior DPS.
Assuming all things equal (which is a huge stretched, granted), the DPS classes do not seem balanced in PvE. I'm sure Blizz's internal testing and simulations show otherwise, but I suspect it's the complexity of each class's play style which is a big factor. In other words, some classes are more 'face-roll' compared to others.
ladrondelanoche May 11th 2009 10:35PM
The classes have never been completely balanced, without making them all the same they never will be. Because the classes are all different there will always be at the bottom.
The trick is making the mechanics so that this difference is small and making skilled players do competitive dps while poor players will not. I think Blizzard has been pretty successful with that since 3.1
Deathgodryuk May 11th 2009 10:37PM
^
"there will always be one at the bottom" is how that should have read.
bobbut May 11th 2009 7:40PM
WTF, i rape hunters in DPS as an 80 rogue doing 4k, my server must just suck
Retgar May 11th 2009 7:45PM
The only changes I would recommend would be to take Black Arrow off the Trap cooldown (separate them), and to increase the TNT proc rate from Black Arrow slightly (about 5%). We're not too bad otherwise.
Clbull May 11th 2009 7:50PM
I can highlight 3 main problems with Hunters at the moment.
1) Our CC isn't that good. Its recieved a nerf pve wise, because we've got shared cooldowns with Black Arrow and Traps so we sacrifice cc for dps. Plus the CDs on traps are restrictive.
2) All Hunter specs, excluding Deep SV seem t0 have lackluster burst. While a Death Knight can pull off higher crits with their abilities, you can do only about a 2 - 2.5k crit with Arcane Shot. I think Arcane needs a big buff tbh.
3) Our melee utility and survivability is rubbish. We're the only ranged dps class that cannot attack in melee range, aside from with our weak melee abilities. We're reliant onhaving to escape from melee which considering the large amounts of CC, snares, and stuns is a hard task most of the time.
Paul D May 11th 2009 9:46PM
As someone who's played a hunter from the first day WoW was online, I feel that the class was originally envisioned as a hybrid ranged/melee/pet dps class. The marksman tree was supposed to enhance ranged abilities, the survival tree melee, and the beastmaster tree pet abilities. But since a hunter's melee dps scales very poorly and our mail isn't good enough to take much aggro, everyone played it as a ranged dps class and Blizzard abandoned the survival tree.
Now survival is back, of course, but the philosophy is different. Hunter trees now consist of "ranged with pets", "ranged without pets", and "other ranged without pets". Rather uncreative if you ask me.
While I'm complaining about Blizzard's lack of vision for hunters, I should add that the class needs a larger variety of pet-healing spells, just like they've given us more than one way to generate threat. Hunters with their pets are, after all, a tank/healer/dps team in one.
Me May 12th 2009 1:36PM
> 3) Our melee utility and survivability is rubbish.
See how your melee survivability is in cloth armor.
Mage QQ FTW!
cartman May 11th 2009 7:57PM
people will complain no matter what the state of game mechanics are but wouldn't it be nice to have WoW mature to the point where the GAME changes NOT the players every patch? So we could learn our class and play the game without worrying about being in a constant state of flux?
Riley May 11th 2009 8:00PM
yeah, seriously, i'm a rogue and i'm rarely not in the top 3 dps, if not #1, in 10's ad 25's
Altheaus May 11th 2009 8:57PM
Well having only been in Uldar 10 (8 bosses down) so far I can say that atm it seems im fighting it out with the rouges, more then any other class, to get to the top of the dps charts. I havent been able to test myself against mages properly yet, but hopefully soon ill know weather BMs are back in business or not
BM's have been buffed a bit as im now, more oftern then not, able to put more damage into the Boss fights then the SV's as all the fights I have encountered so far require mobility, so classes that do well from static fights just aren't able to nuke like they used to.
So my over all experience of Uldar 10 has told me that it is the great hunter equalizer with an average of around 4 - 4.5K dps on rouges, SV hunters and BM hunters with all three changing places depending on the boss fight
Long live the BM hunter!
perderedeus May 11th 2009 9:17PM
What I don't understand is... why all the hunter hate? Here and on the boards. And don't give me that "hunter loot" stuff, that's so 2005.
PVP I can understand people would gripe about any class but their own, but PVE DPS? Come on people. A hunter should be at the top of the meters and trading spots constantly with Rogues, Locks, and Mages. I'm sorry if that makes you DKs and Warriors jealous, but you ARE hybrids. And criminey, in PVE we're all working toward the same goal... progression, loot.
To spit on a class because they say their "pure DPS" in PVE is sucking because of design problems, and they're vocal about it... well, when the shoe is on your foot one day, you'll be looking for sympathy too.
In PVP, everyone is out for themselves so I expect no quarter to be given there.
seanfury May 11th 2009 9:20PM
"most of the complaints in the thread say that Hunters need more mobility and CC options, "
LOL.
Yeah, traps, wing clip, shots, and disengage is CLEARLY not enough.
xX FearHAVOK Xx May 12th 2009 5:34PM
you clearly arnt a hunter.
Syland May 15th 2009 6:18PM
Hunter vs. DK: Deathgrip, disengage, disengage, icy chains, hunter dead.
Hunter vs. pally? pally bubble knock out hunter...hunter dead without a shot hitting they pally. Pretty much applies to rogues too.
Hunter vs. warlock: warlock dies, hunter goes away, dies at home while eating dinner.
Hunter vs. Mage: RNG contest.
Hunter vs. Druid: that can be a nice fight depending on the druid.
Hunter vs. warrior: hunter screwed, charge is a bitch.
hunter vs. priest: can be fun, as long as the priest doesn't fear constantly. MC deaths are a little messed too.
as for DPS in PvE: hunters are normally top contenders, in my guild we have a warrior that gives up a run for our money, and a druid that is quickly jumping up the ranks now that we are in Ulduar.
Eshin May 11th 2009 9:54PM
I am a hunter, I love being a hunter. I hate however being SV, never have liked it have been and always will be a DieHard BM. That being said, I give many things up, find me a non-pet friendly fight and I'm down and out for the count. Half my damage is my pet, there is no other way around this but to switch specs. Yet for all this I can still pull 4k dps in a fight if it all goes well for me. That being said Hunters are no where near the top in the Damage Meters anymore, that seems to be left to the Locks/Mages/Rogues