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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsFrom our readers: Is my Ulduar-clearing guild holding me back?
by Amanda Dean 
May 17th 2009 at 4:00PM
I'd like to take a minute to address the concerns of one of our readers. Since my return to WoW Insider, I've been focusing on sanity, progression, and congruence. Dear WoW Insider:
I need help, and I figure between me and that guy in the last Breakfast Topic, I'd have more than a good chance of you guys having suggestions to my current dilemma.
I'm fairly new to WoW, having started in December 2008, after a long stint on FFXI. I was glad I made the move, and I haven't looked back. I toyed with a few classes before settling on a blood elf rogue. I zoomed through classic, Burning Crusade and have now made Northrend my home.
I hit 80 a couple of months ago, and although many guilds have offered for me to join along the way, I always replied that my brother's guild was going to take me in as soon as I turned 80. I've been with them on a few heroics and even saw the inside of Sunwell as my first raid ever, although I must confess all that left me feeling a little bit bewildered as I didn't really know what was happening most of the time. I was constantly asking for help, asking where I should stand and what not. While most of the guild was really nice and understanding (and still are), I'm feeling a little bit out of my depth. Most of the guild members are very experienced, as you can imagine. Some of them are on their second or third alts clearing Naxxramas, and most of the guild are working on Ulduar progression.
I guess my question is whether I have perhaps joined a guild that's a bit too advanced for me. I keep wondering if my gear's up to scratch, or even if it is, what content I should be aiming to clear. I would love to do more heroics, see the inside of different dungeons, but I don't think the interests of most guild members are in line with mine. If you can help this poor newbie rogue out, I'd greatly appreciate it. Is my guild holding me back?
Cheers,
Wil
Hi Wil,
Thank you for taking the time to write to us. It sounds like you need a little bit of guidance. Without looking at your armory profile, I can't tell you where your gear is. I would like to point out, however, that gear is not the only factor in being a great endgame WoW player.
The first thing you should do is learn your class inside and out. This means spending some time outside of game to do your research. There are many great websites that can help you find the right spec, and teach you about rotation. Be sure to keep up with changes to your class and other mechanics. Bookmarks sites that you find useful and be sure to revisit them, but make sure the advice that you're getting is timely.
Consider the flexibility you will need as situations change, and what you and your class bring to an instance or a raid. You may even ask a more progressed Rogue to mentor you.
Learn what gear stats you should be looking for. For most DPSers in my guild I encourage hit rating above all other stats. Attack power is great, but unless you are hit capped, you will find yourself missing things very forcefully. Once you've determined the stats that you're looking for, make a list of the gear that you need. Start by picking up regular instance and heroic gear and then consider raiding.
Your DPS is an indicator of what content you should be running. If you're pulling around 1000 DPS you're probably best off in regular instances. While there is no absolute minimum requirement for DPS in heroics, 1500 is about what it takes to pull your weight. Many groups will accept 1800 for Naxx 10 and 2000 for Naxx 25. Gearing up through Naxx will prepare you for further raid progression. Learn to walk before you try to run.
Your brother's guild may be the right place for your brother, but not necessarily the right place for you. Ask yourself if you meet the guild's needs, and the guild meets yours. It doesn't sound like you're nearly ready for Ulduar. If they are not running heroics and older raid content, you may never be able to catch up. It's possible that you need to make a change. Consider goals, progression, activity times, composition, and general membership.
For love, for honor, for pony,
mandy
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Tips, Fan stuff, Guilds, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 5)
zappo May 18th 2009 9:18AM
Do you like your guild? By your comments you seem to be a regular member, not an officer; but this seriously needs to be addressed. Dragging people like that through content when others are giving it their all acts like a cancer to a guild. It seems innocent enough, but then you end up with encounters that are CLOSE, but you wipe and the difference is quite obviously the weakest link. If people who bust their butts on encounters are getting passed up for loot to this person, that's going to create a LOT of grudges. Eventually it's going to piss off at least one person, but more than likely it's going to result in a few all leaving at once because they're sick of it, and quite often the result is that a guild fizzles out and disbands.
Long story short, you really need to find a way to bring this up in your guild (discretely as possible I guess), otherwise I'd say the seeds of doom are already starting to grow in your guild.
Wil May 19th 2009 7:03AM
Thanks for the kind words, Tilt. As I generally prefer to learn from the mistakes of others, rather than my own (saves me the embarrassment), I've now realised that I could have been doing more to improve my current, passable but substandard gear with enchants, rather than leaving them as placeholders for an upgrade that would have taken a long time in coming. I feel more confident in finding a guild more suited to my needs after reading your comment, so thanks again.
Wil
gaujot May 17th 2009 4:28PM
You are not e e cummings.
Karilyn May 17th 2009 4:30PM
mandy is short for Amanda
A-manda
A-mandy
mandy
STFU about it, seriously. She's an awesome blogger.
Rofllol May 17th 2009 4:43PM
Well, kARILYN, I think she should learn to capitalize.
Tilt May 17th 2009 4:47PM
And the white knights pour out of the woodwork. God bless the internet.
Kakistocracy May 17th 2009 5:14PM
How is any of that important (id est, why do you care? Why does he/she care that you care? Why do I care that he/she cares that you care?)?
If in a spoken exchange she announced her name, wuld you object to it not sounding capitalized enough? What is the function of something that makes a distinction, not between to or more things, but between one thing, and one thing alone?
Like wise, why must we say ~(a=m) or a≠m (but that's not really relevant here), to show the negation of a=m? Sure, the parenthesis shows that it's not the "a" that's being negated, but given that the "a" can't meaningfully be negated, so it should by default be understood.
Is there any benefit to the systemic insistence on redundancy and meaningless "distinctions"?
(this was written by me, and not someone else, or anyone else for that matter, or by someone who is and was not me)
Plan May 17th 2009 6:39PM
A "white knight" is a desperate dude who defends random females on the internet because, in some sick twisted way, he thinks his behavior might "get him some." I think you have the term confused with the standard types around here who will defend a blogger to death no matter how many factual or grammatical errors they make in a post. (Sup Rossi, how's your Shaman doing?)
But in regard to the original topic and the question at hand, I think Mr. BE Rogue should be extremely grateful he's got a great endgame guild welcoming him into their raids. Raid spots aren't easy to get for Rogues in WotLK, and most players have to try out a couple different guilds before they find one that's non-fail in terms of playstyle and without miserable people.
He shouldn't be discouraged if the guild members don't want to repeat heroic content and lower-level raids. If they're bringing their third and fourth alts to raids, that means they've already seen the lower end-game content many, many times and you can't blame them for not wanting to go through it again. I'd recommend pugging heroics or running with non-guildie friends for that stuff while joining his guild for the more "advanced" raids.
Morcego May 17th 2009 4:29PM
I still remember my first time on a raid. I felt the same way you did.
You definitively need to run more Instances. Not necessarily for gear, but more to get a feeling of what team playing is on WoW (it is very different from other games). After that, try PuGing some 10man OS (no drakes). It is a very simple and straightforward raid, very easy and where mistakes are NOT costly. However, it will have several of the elements you will find in the big raids. Positioning, the golden rule of raiding (Stay out of the fire!) and all that. It is a good place to get used to raiding. (If your guild is going 25man OS with 0/1 drake, it is still even better than 10man OS no drakes).
It takes time to get familiar with raids. Your feelings are only natural.
Keep going and, I promise you, you won't regret. End game raiding is really fun and worth every stone you will have to step over on the way.
Avery May 17th 2009 4:46PM
"You may even ask a more progressed Rogue to mentor you. "
This. Finding an experienced member of that class will be a GREAT help in helping you determine what abilities or gear are honestly better than others and in what situations. Maybe an ability is really cool sounding, but it falls flat on its feet. Maybe it's just the opposite. Someone who has played the class will know what pitfalls to avoid and can help you along the way.
com5 May 17th 2009 5:06PM
I also agree with asking a more progressed Rogue. I've "tutored" and answered questions for other rogues that wanted to know more about their class.
Also checking out www.ShadowPanther.net is the best to find your Best-In-Slot gear, what to work for from each instance. Also checking out similar forums for it from wowhead.com all that info.
Macros also work very well for rogues, so asking about how to use macros to get the best outa your deeps.
Rob May 17th 2009 5:09PM
Its kinda a tough situation. Here's the deal.
People and guilds that are doing ulduar are in progression oriented, very focused guilds. OP is right that they aren't doing heroics, why should they? They will do naxx though, and this guy can gear up very easily. Sure he wont be pulling his weight now, but if he's serious about playing endgame it won't take much to get the gold needed for the enchants and so forth. And they know what they are doing.
I would not recommend puging. You will never learn the bosses and encounters, because 99% of PUGs just facemash and if they can't do that, they quit.
Similiarly, guilds who are not ready for uldar probably are not at a decent skill or effort level (my guild is like this, I'm the GL). We just don't take raiding that seriously, peroid. If that is you, fine. We do alot of heroics and at this point we know them all and guild groups wipe very few times. At this point at 80, bout the only thing that is left to experience PVE wise is the level 80 raids and heroics. You kinda missed the boat on all the other dungeons and so forth. You can go solo the BC and vanilla dungeons just to say you did it.
My advice for the guy is to figure out if he wants to raid on their raiding schedule. We all assume that he's intelligent enough to start pulling his weight quickly. It would only take a few weeks of full naxx clears to get geared in epics. Do the heroics to learn your class, don't do them because you absolutely need that gear. You don't, you will be carried for a while. Do expect to make the most of everything, get the best consumables you can get, known when to use it. Nothing ticks raid leaders off more is undergeared people rolling need on stuff they dont need, dont bother to enchant/gem it, (or bad enchants, worse), and dont bother to bring flasks.
Bronwyn May 17th 2009 5:14PM
Just putting in- I'd stick it out for a bit longer. I felt like I didn't know what was going on AT ALL, especially when I was learning fights that were new to me. If you still feel you are floundering after a while.. then it's probably not the guild for you.
Tridus May 17th 2009 5:22PM
There's a lot of Naxx PUGs on my server, its probably common elsewhere too. You can get into those no matter what guild you're in, then when you catch up gear wise, try to join in some of your guild's stuff.
Might May 19th 2009 8:09AM
Yeah finding another rogue that is more experienced and willing to give you some time is a good way to go. Go to the web and read up on what you need using sites like Maxdps.com and forums discussing rogues.
Me being hunter, I find it strange how the roll of hunters has changed considerably since I started playing. It is much easier now. Provide AOE and clobber them with dps. We used to have to trap way more often and it took skill to play the position. It still does take skill but not as complex (although some of the staged fights in raids can be taxing til you know them). Since I don't have a rogue toon that high yet...I wonder if the same is not true. It seems to be more of a pure Tank..DPS..Healer proposition. Athough in our guild our pallys seem to have the most complex roles with multitasking.
Sorry to get off topic there. The advice on the last couple posts seems pretty good to me.
Daniel May 17th 2009 5:34PM
for pony ... XD
ah the legacy of Richard continues
LFG
Shardrell May 17th 2009 5:47PM
Some of these posters have a good point; if you're a hard-core type of player and want to get to the point where you're able to work on cutting edge content, you might want to stick with your brother's guild. It sounds like they are cool folks and willing to be patient, so they might be the right people to help you learn to raid.
I'd start by asking your brother and/or the guild leadership if there's a day when they could run through some heroics on their alts with you. The goal for the run would be not to brute-force the boss fights, but to use the actual strategies that lower-geared characters would use to defeat the heroic bosses. This will begin to teach you the basic ideas you'll take into raids. Once you have some heroic gear (shouldn't take long as a rogue to get some decent stuff), you can do a decent job in Naxx, and go there when your guild runs it with alts.
Luckily, rogues are not super complicated to play in raids versus many other classes. The tricky part is playing a rogue well (i.e. having high DPS and making sure not to be a drain on the healers whenever possible). Since you're starting out, I recommend speccing Combat. You can have a pretty simple damage rotation (4-5 point slice and dice/5 point rupture/5 point evisc if there's time before slice and dice runs out) and do reasonable DPS. That means you can spend more time concentrating on learning the boss mechanics and less time worrying about class complexities for now.
The important thing is to communicate with your guild, if you decide to stick with this one. Don't be afraid to ask people if they think you're ready to take the next step. Be clear that you want to be able to reasonably contribute to a raid before you go on it, and ask for feedback on your gear/spec/playing. I know I would be *happy* to help a player who communicated in that way and who was willing to spend time outside of the raid to prep for raids. Because I know that once that player has a bit more experience and has geared up, they are going to be a great contributor to my raids.
Sin May 17th 2009 5:50PM
God bless conscientious noob-80's. I rather despise level 80's who are under-geared and have little endgame experience and yet cling to a persistant arrogance as if they themselves have solo cleared 25-man Ulduar and could wtfpwn Arthas himself in real life. I mean seriously, if you need better gear or more experience, there's nothing wrong with that, but if you have neither of the two and you're walking into a naxx-25 or Ulduar-25 like you're 'all that and a bag of chips', you should /gquit as it is, and not ride on the coattails of a higher ranking guild member. I'm currently in a raiding guild who grinds naxx-25 and is in the midst of Ulduar progression as we speak, and someone like that wouldn't last long with us.
Now, if you're not very experienced, under-geared, or a combination of the both and you're looking for help to improve, then I applaud you! www.wowwikki.com is a great source for learning about boss encounters, and wowhead.com is great for researching gear you can roll for that would be just the right choice for your class/spec. We were all noobs at one point or another, the way we grow out of that is by going out of our way to learn more about what we don't know.
Can I get an AMEN?!
Trasken May 18th 2009 1:10AM
Hellz yeah
I love helping out newer players (regardless of their level) but I can't stand the ones who get cocky just because of the level beside their name =/ I ran with a tank a few days back that was this way, yet I think I ended up tanking more than they did (Seeing how Evasion doesn't last long, you can tell how well that run went).
Honestly, maybe I'm just being a perfectionist, but I can not STAND seeing myself doing poorly whatsoever. I post on a forum and see if there's anything that I'm doing even remotely wrong and then, after all other possibilites are exhausted, I'll finally acknowledge it might be a gear issue. Which provides a clear goal. I don't expect other people to do all this mind you, it's just how I am (especially since my only job is DPSing, if I can't do the one job I have correctly, then what's the point in playing my class?)
obarthelemy May 17th 2009 5:57PM
Apart from the technical aspect, are you having fun with your current guild ?
- Not having the gear is easily and quickly fixable.
- Not having the knowledge can be solved in a handful of hours on elitistjerks.com and various other site.
- I assume you're skilled enough to actually move around and be were you should be (wowwiki has great cheat sheets on bosses)
Assuming you do that "homework", that really only leaves the social aspect of the game. Do you feel like you're the 5th wheel in your guild, talking only with your brother and being there only because he forces you down everyone's throat, or have you made a few friends you enjoy playing with ?