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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsFrom our readers: Is my Ulduar-clearing guild holding me back?
by Amanda Dean 
May 17th 2009 at 4:00PM
I'd like to take a minute to address the concerns of one of our readers. Since my return to WoW Insider, I've been focusing on sanity, progression, and congruence. Dear WoW Insider:
I need help, and I figure between me and that guy in the last Breakfast Topic, I'd have more than a good chance of you guys having suggestions to my current dilemma.
I'm fairly new to WoW, having started in December 2008, after a long stint on FFXI. I was glad I made the move, and I haven't looked back. I toyed with a few classes before settling on a blood elf rogue. I zoomed through classic, Burning Crusade and have now made Northrend my home.
I hit 80 a couple of months ago, and although many guilds have offered for me to join along the way, I always replied that my brother's guild was going to take me in as soon as I turned 80. I've been with them on a few heroics and even saw the inside of Sunwell as my first raid ever, although I must confess all that left me feeling a little bit bewildered as I didn't really know what was happening most of the time. I was constantly asking for help, asking where I should stand and what not. While most of the guild was really nice and understanding (and still are), I'm feeling a little bit out of my depth. Most of the guild members are very experienced, as you can imagine. Some of them are on their second or third alts clearing Naxxramas, and most of the guild are working on Ulduar progression.
I guess my question is whether I have perhaps joined a guild that's a bit too advanced for me. I keep wondering if my gear's up to scratch, or even if it is, what content I should be aiming to clear. I would love to do more heroics, see the inside of different dungeons, but I don't think the interests of most guild members are in line with mine. If you can help this poor newbie rogue out, I'd greatly appreciate it. Is my guild holding me back?
Cheers,
Wil
Hi Wil,
Thank you for taking the time to write to us. It sounds like you need a little bit of guidance. Without looking at your armory profile, I can't tell you where your gear is. I would like to point out, however, that gear is not the only factor in being a great endgame WoW player.
The first thing you should do is learn your class inside and out. This means spending some time outside of game to do your research. There are many great websites that can help you find the right spec, and teach you about rotation. Be sure to keep up with changes to your class and other mechanics. Bookmarks sites that you find useful and be sure to revisit them, but make sure the advice that you're getting is timely.
Consider the flexibility you will need as situations change, and what you and your class bring to an instance or a raid. You may even ask a more progressed Rogue to mentor you.
Learn what gear stats you should be looking for. For most DPSers in my guild I encourage hit rating above all other stats. Attack power is great, but unless you are hit capped, you will find yourself missing things very forcefully. Once you've determined the stats that you're looking for, make a list of the gear that you need. Start by picking up regular instance and heroic gear and then consider raiding.
Your DPS is an indicator of what content you should be running. If you're pulling around 1000 DPS you're probably best off in regular instances. While there is no absolute minimum requirement for DPS in heroics, 1500 is about what it takes to pull your weight. Many groups will accept 1800 for Naxx 10 and 2000 for Naxx 25. Gearing up through Naxx will prepare you for further raid progression. Learn to walk before you try to run.
Your brother's guild may be the right place for your brother, but not necessarily the right place for you. Ask yourself if you meet the guild's needs, and the guild meets yours. It doesn't sound like you're nearly ready for Ulduar. If they are not running heroics and older raid content, you may never be able to catch up. It's possible that you need to make a change. Consider goals, progression, activity times, composition, and general membership.
For love, for honor, for pony,
mandy
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Tips, Fan stuff, Guilds, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 4 of 5)
Kitteh, Twilight's Hammer EU May 17th 2009 6:18PM
As a suggestion (this is done with some reservation) go see the main forums on www.wow-europe.com.
Check in the Rogue forum, have a read of the stickies. Most other posts in the main forum have a fair number of trolls and folks generally out to cause trouble but some may be worth a look.
Check on wowhead, again, find the rogue forums, have a read of the stickies.
Take a look at elitistjerks rogue forum and take a look at the "rogue pocket guide". Generally asking questions here at the level of understanding you have won't get you much positive response (they tend to cater to the more advanced players).
For good idea's abotu how to "do" raid bosses get on youtube and lookup "tankspot bossname" Ciderhelm has done a very good job of explaining the raid level boss fights pretty well.
Pug a lot, yes pugs are often crap and frustrating, they DO get you used to interacting and knowing more about your class.
That is perhaps a fair amount of "homework" to do. Generally tho the better WoW players tend to fairly well read. Knowing the boss fights from the video's will help you with confidence during raids, in heroic pugs expect anything and everything to happen. Best of luck to you.
ambermist May 17th 2009 6:34PM
If your goal is to eventually raid with the guild, then stay. I agree with most of the advice given, and let me add to the advice of finding a more progressed rogue.
Most progression guilds have class leads. This person is in their position because they're very experienced in their class and they take the time and effort to do all the research (not that you shouldn't do your own!). Ask someone who your rogue class lead is and have a good heart to heart about what YOUR guild expects from their rogues. He (or she) can tell you what stats they prefer, what gems, enchants, and consumables they expect you to use, and what spec/rotation would be most useful. Because he'll be in touch with the officers and raid core, he'll also be able to point you to the people who can help you with particular aspects of your game.
When I respecced moonkin after being resto for all of my raiding experience, my dps was slack. I ended up doing a lot of research. But probably the best tool for me was sitting down one-on-one in vent with another similarly-progressed moonkin to find out what he was doing that I wasn't.
If you don't have the goal to endgame raid, then you can still do all of the above things if you're interested, but I would recommend finding a guild that's more focused on the social, leveling, or casual aspects of the game.
TL;DR: if you want to raid, talk to your rogue class lead. If you don't, find a more casual guild.
Lorgrim May 17th 2009 7:08PM
I sympathise with you Wil. In TBC I was in a guild that could never pull it together to get to Kara, so after a long time in their company, I left. I wrote a nice application to a great casual guild, outlining my strengths and weaknesses as a new raider, and they welcomed me in.
From what you have said about your current guild, they seem to be an accommodating bunch, and friendly enough to at least have some level of empathy towards your problem, so my advice is to speak with your class leader (if you have one) or an officer if you don’t. Lay it all on the table, explain that you feel out of your depth and that you feel you need to learn a lot more before you can raid to your full potential.
The truth is that your concern is born of a genuine desire to pull your weight. You want to do well and don’t want to hold your group back, this is an incredibly admirable trait and something a hell of a lot of WoW players could do with learning, so your honesty is commendable mate.
Upon discussing, you might find them willing to accommodate and point you in the right direction, or they might explain that the content they are attempting might be a bit much for you and you may feel more comfortable in a newer raiding guild, either way you have nothing to lose. But I do feel that Amanda is correct, it could well be that you’re not ready for Ulduar just yet. That’s not a slight on your abilities though, its just that you may need a while to learn the ropes before you jump in head first
Best of luck mate
Wil May 19th 2009 7:26AM
Thanks for the kind words, Lorgrim. My former guild has been extremely accomodating, and I have learned a bit from the more senior rogues there. If anything, it made me painfully aware of how steep the learning curve was when you start raiding. But I think I'm up to the challenge. I think I have a good feeling what I am and am not ready for. Naxx and Ulduar are out of the question, but I should be able to hold my own in the easier heroics. And from there, things can only get better. Thanks again for taking the time to reply!
Wil
Cat May 17th 2009 7:35PM
What should a PvE rogue do when they hit 80? This explains most things you'll need.
http://ninjachimp.blogspot.com/2009/04/so-what-should-pve-rogues-do-when-they.html
Cat May 17th 2009 7:59PM
Also:
It seems like the writer has a keen sense of not wanting to abuse the goodwill of his brother's guild, which is admirable. I faced a similar issue in that I had a WoW break right around the time Wrath came out, and didn't get to 80 until recently when my guild was already farming Nax and getting into Ulduar.
My advice there would be: know your limits and treat every guild run as a favour until you've developed the gear and skill to really contribute. While your guild might be able to tolerate opening a spot for you in Nax25 regardless of your gear, they won't be so happy if you start rolling against more established raiders on top end gear. Be happy with the drops that nobody else wants (which will be plentiful if your guild is in Ulduar), and you'll be pleasantly surprised as the invites (and the gear) come rolling in. Even Ulduar guilds still run Nax, as it's great for emblems.
In the meantime, don't expect guild heroic runs. Just pug them. Once you pug with a good group, put them on your /friends and try to make it regular. Emblem gear will definitely see you into Nax and beyond.
Being perceptive and self-aware is a great asset; e.g. if your guild start talking about an Undying/Immortal run through Nax and you're not familiar and experienced with the Heigan Dance, just sit it out.
I'd also recommend maintaining stats of your runs on something like http://worldoflogs.com/ so that you and your class leader can review the fights. In no time you'll be pulling better and better numbers.
Good luck and happy rogueing.
Shiro May 17th 2009 8:51PM
Perfect advice: Treat every run as a favor.
As someone who was a class lead in a raiding guild, what I looked for in a new recruit wasn't perfect gear, it wasn't perfect timing and experience. It was the willingness to learn and improve.
What I wanted to see was that you were humble about your abilities, were willing to take advice, and were willing to do some research on your own.
Some of the best recruits I ever picked up were people who knew *nothing* about raiding when they started, they had horrible gear, and they refused upgrades in favor of allowing more experienced raiders to have sidegrades.
Those folks endeared themselves to the entire guild, and were the cornerstones of our raiding within a few months. The jerks who had "awesome gear" and knew all the strats "cold" usually had an attitude to match and rolled on everything that was even remotely sparkly. They almost always lasted a few weeks before being kicked for attitude based reasons.
Just keep the good attitude, learn from your experience, and try not to ever make the same mistake twice. :)
Wil May 19th 2009 7:19AM
Thanks for that great link, Cat. It looks like I've got a tonne of reading ahead of me, but that's what night shifts at work are for.
I have been looking out for PUGs, but it seems that tanks and healers have more luck getting invites, but I'm sure that's true for most servers.
Lomin May 17th 2009 8:54PM
If they're doing the heroics, inviting you to raids, and helping you learn your class, then that's a good place to be. Obviously they could come up with just any random loser to take a /ginvite, and that they haven't just kicked you or ignored you is a sign that the members actually want you around. Not to mention that since they're experienced players in a successful guild, if you're learning from anybody, it should be them.
Give it a little time, let them help you, and you'll fit in soon enough.
Now if it becomes simply that you don't want to raid, or don't want to raid with them, or don't want to participate with whatever they have going on, and they're not interested in whatever it is you want to be doing, then that's not the sort of relationship you may want with a guild and you might find a better place.
Iwanttobeasleep May 17th 2009 9:56PM
Pug! It can be a huge headache, but even if you don't down the boss in the end, it can be a great source of experience. And gear. And sometimes you get in a great pug where the leaders are expecting to have to teach everyone how to raid, and that's a huge help.
Kole May 17th 2009 9:58PM
"You may even ask a more progressed Rogue to mentor you. "
We must have crappy guilds on Uldaman-US and certainly our fair share of asshats...cause trying to find any guidance from either and that are willing to assist a noob 80 or even an established 80 that has been into (not finished) Naxx 10/25 and has cleared all the Heroics several times but has moderate dps (1700-2000) is near impossible. (Please excuse the long run-on sentence.)
I have been in several guilds trying to find the right "fit" for me and am always open to suggestions and any assistance. Sad thing is that most have been either too concerned with their own progression or just don't want to bother.
That and all the verbal attacks everyone so loves in Trade when a noob asks a question makes me really want to transfer servers...blah.
Aymuhdroowud May 17th 2009 10:24PM
Sounds like this rogue is geared enough but is either lacking in confidence or general game knowledge. I like your idea of the meta-game sites like Elitist Jerks or others to get a better overall feel for the game mechanics, and then just knowing your role in the raid and being confident in your ability to hit 5-6 buttons at the right time.
Rune May 21st 2009 10:37AM
I can sympathise with your situation somewhat, but I found it easier to fit in in a very similar situation through my own personality style fitting the guild and the guild being a little less serious (while still proper raiders). Fitting socially is a big factor, make sure you enjoy the company of these people.
Main things I would say is that in any guild like you describe you can be sure if you are on often enough there will be groups willing to do Heroics for achievements/gearing alts, similar with 10 mans and 25 mans probably less often, but occationally with alts. Many will go back to these for offspec gear as I am currently doing atm as a player who came late into more progressed guilds myself.
If you are as willing to learn as suggested, I can't see them having much trouble, stay humble, don't take a slot for granted, and take the gear and experience as you go. A progressive guild like this will always be better IF you enjoy doing raid like that. The big issue should be whether their goals are the same as yours. They definately shouldnt hold you back as a guild like this is a great resource for gear and skill progression.
As for PUG's, do it if you want but learn more from the mistakes made, learn how to do well when the dps and healing isnt up to the standard, forcing the tactics and positioning to be more spot on than when you have dps and healing to spare. I feel the main thing is to learn from them all you can.
They will be a good resource for badges and gear though, and being geared well enough does matter in term of feeling comfortable in the company of a guild of well geared people.
If in the end they are too serious for you, you dont enjoy rainding, or dont find time to do earlier raids/heroics then maybe I'd consider looking for something else, but I think sticking with things for a while longer would be the best option.
Carrie May 17th 2009 11:20PM
It's not the guild's responsibility to provide raiding or 5man opportunities for you. Your guild is in no way holding you back.
Are you posting 5man runs on the calendar? Are you posting BC runs on the calendar? Are you talking to the other guildies and giving them good reasons to go back and do old raids with you? (Achievements work well for this.)
If you answered no to any of the above, then YOU are holding yourself back.
If you answered yes to any of the above, but the guildies are not interested in going with you, then YOU are still holding yourself back. How? Because you have not sought out a like-minded group of people to do these instances with. Post on your realm forums. Watch for pugs doing heroics and old raids. Start up your own pugs. When you find people you like to play with, add them to your friends list. When you find that a certain guild tag always seems to have players doing the things you want, talk to them about going along with them as a guest raider.
You are responsible for your own experience in this game. You control your character, you control your subscription, you control the amount of time you play. No one but YOU can hold you back from doing anything you want to do.
Badger May 17th 2009 11:21PM
Did anybody else think the screenshot at the top of the page looked like the Blood Elf subject was playing "Dance Dance Revolution" on the hardest setting?
Mohrlock May 18th 2009 12:20AM
I thought that straight away as well... but then looked closer and realised that it was more likely ITG if it were mimicking either of the two. DDR almost never has a tripple hit, only doubles, even on 1/16th notes ;)
Oh yeah, I play DDR AND WoW :P
Quark1020 May 18th 2009 3:03AM
FOR PONY!
Lemons May 18th 2009 4:41AM
You should have a guild that is more your speed and maybe one day you can "graduate" to your bothers guild.
Try and get into a newer guild...one that's still running heroics and Naxx where you can be on the same page as everyone else, it'll be much easier to gear up that way then constantly being passed over each time the GM sends out the Ulduar invites.
I know my guild runs nothing but Ulduar atm. Nothing else. Personally I think a few of our guildies could stand getting some naxx epics, hell, I could stand getting some epics off Kel and Saph. Anywho...if that describes your guild, only taking Ulduar seriously and forgoing all the other content, then yes, you should join a different gulid that is currently working twoards Ulduar instead of on it.
SteveV May 18th 2009 8:41AM
It can be difficult when you're starting raiding from scratch, especially in Ulduar, which, unlike Naxx, actually tests player skills to some extent.
Not sure what to say really, gear is only a small part of the equation, learning how to play your class successfully in raids is the major part.
I'd say that you're best bet would be firstly, learn what you can from discussion sites so that you have a good grounding in what to ask. Then find someone in your current guild who might be willing to mentor you, "show you the ropes".
If you cant find that, then it might be worth considering moving guilds.
Naix May 18th 2009 9:49AM
If you guild is that "bad ass" then you should clear 25 man naxx a few times and gear up that way.
Its easy and takes a real guild just over 3 hours if your good.