The Art of War(craft): Is Wintergrasp too successful for its own good?

Crygil's post about the change from Daily quests to Weekly ones -- conceivably a first for the game -- note that the changes were being explored "In an effort to better balance the amount of players that are in Wintergrasp at any given time". No matter how Blizzard tries to spin it, they're trying to dissuade players from participating in Wintergrasp. This is a bad idea. There's something epic about Wintergrasp, and it's not (just) the lag. Considering it's obviously one of their most popular game features in Wrath, it's ironic they're taking steps to curtail its success.
There's something to be said for the ambitious concept of scaling battles. Apprehensions about Wintergrasp's appeal were quickly quelled when the zone quickly filled up as more players hit max level. It was something that we'd never seen before in the game. But while the game is fun, but the rewards are phenomenal, too. The Honor gain from playing a short game of Wintergrasp are extremely good, especially if you factor in the daily quests. Almost too good, in fact, that Blizzard expressed concern that it was taking away interest in instanced Battlegrounds. I understand the goal of reducing Honor, but the move from Daily quests to Weekly ones is just plain bad.
With respect to the Honor gain, it would have been simple enough to reduce the Honor reward from Daily quests from a generous 1241 Honor per quest at Level 80 to something more reasonable, perhaps a third of that. Reducing the Honor gained from other Wintergrasp objectives, as they are doing on the PTR, seems like a step in the right direction. Limiting Honor is fine, but actively trying to reduce the number of people playing the game? That sounds like a really bad deal.
Zarhym notes that there is "an overabundance of players" in Wintergrasp, "resulting in poor realm performance during peak play times." It's sad and ironic that Blizzard has to take steps to control something so successful. Before we start to examine things, though, let's get one thing out of the way: Blizzard underestimated Wintergrasp. Between hardware capacity and how much data is communicated from server to client, there are a lot of opportunities for performance to bog down. And Blizzard simply didn't seem prepared for what happened.
Without having to understand the intricacies of just how servers handle load, it should be noted that excessive player activity concentrated in one area can lead to realm crashes. Blizzard knows this, which is why the response is so unexpected. City raids and other massive player-organized events have been known to crash entire realms before, so how can a non-instanced Battleground with ambitions of hosting multi-raid battles be a surprise? Admittedly, the requirements of something so massive might just be too much, even for Blizzard's top-of-the-line machines. They've also explained that upgrading everything is no simple matter, a process that takes several months and entails meticulous planning.
So where did it all go wrong? From the onset, Blizzard already had scenarios with hundreds of players. They said as much at the Worldwide Invitational last year. Even though they said they expected anywhere from 50 to 200 people in the zone at once, the success and popularity of Wintergrasp still caught them with their pants down. One of the problems is the design of the zone, which concentrates most of the activity in one place, Wintergrasp Keep. During games, for example, it's possible to escape lag by concentrating on the Southern objectives.
Unfortunately, despite the changes to gameplay, participating in the battle for the Keep proper still grants the most Honor owing to the sheer number of Honorable Kills players can soak up through sheer proximity. By extension, it makes it easier to complete the kill quests and is the only way to complete Defend the Siege. Even though dispersing activity won't eliminate lag entirely, it will certainly help. If I experience lag during a game, I usually escape it by having the Spirit Guide port me to a Southern graveyard.
Having multiple objectives all over the Battleground would help disperse players but also run the risk of diluting the epic feel of the zone. As bad as lag can be, there's something truly amazing about having hundreds of players take to the battlefield. It's one of the things that make Wintergrasp so amazing and exactly the thing that makes it so terrible. Would it be as fun if there were numerous points all over the map (not just the South) where the game can be won? I don't think so. Not only that, low population servers with low PvP activity will almost certainly suffer from the additional dilution.
It's not a simple problem, and Blizzard seems to be taking an extreme approach to solving it. It's hard to imagine there being no other way to fix the problem than to discourage players from participating. Will enabling aerial battles alleviate the problem or make it worse? Players who enjoy Wintergrasp are looking forward to the next iteration of the zone, and these changes aren't very reassuring. It's one thing to tune the zone's gameplay, and it's another to disincentivize it. Weekly quests? Does Blizzard really want players to visit Wintergrasp that much less?
That doesn't give much confidence for further development of the zone, does it? Introducing new, cool elements such as flying machines might just encourage more players to play Wintergrasp. The way Blizzard has tried to make solutions on the PTR, you'd be inclined to think that that would be the last thing they want. This is a case of success gone all sorts of wrong, and it's unlikely that there'll be further refinement to Wintergrasp itself in the near future. Not with the focus on a new Battleground and efforts to improve instanced Battleground participation. Blizzard is intent on ushering player traffic back into instanced Battlegrounds.
The one bright spot in this whole thing is that we know Blizzard is learning. Wintergrasp is the culmination of years of learning from Alterac Valley and other world PvP objectives. This is merely another lesson learned. While Wintergrasp will quite conceivably plateau from hereonforth, the successes of the zone herald a much more interesting and equally massive world PvP objective in the next expansion. Blizzard proved it can work -- a non-instanced Battleground as massive as other zones in Northrend that probably sees more traffic than any other zone save perhaps for Icecrown and The Storm Peaks. Considering Blizzard's keen pursuit of improvement, it's almost a sure bet that we've got something grander in store. Let's just hope the hardware matches the ambition.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, PvP, The Art of War(craft) (PvP), Battlegrounds
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 5)
Belkar May 17th 2009 1:28PM
Perhaps the fun IS 120 vs 60 The lag sucks. That the lag affects the entire server sucks. That the lag is inescapable (contrary to the article's statement) regardless of where you fight when the final push happens sucks.
And yet, the simply massive PvP is what is fun and engaging. Personally I'm honor capped (been that way for months) and am sitting on 200ish tokens and over 1200 shards. Yet I keep going back for the massive scrum.
What blizzard seems to miss is that even if they make the daily quests a weekly affair it won't really change the amount of people playing. The majority of people playing in wintergrasp have their daily completed in the first game. They then proceed to play several more rounds with no apparent reward.
I don't know that there is a solution for this. They've got a successful, fun game element that their network and server infrastructure simply cannot handle. They should have known this was coming since in-game protests (60-80 people gathering and spamming abilities) have been so successful at bringing the servers to their knees in the past. And I suspect that the only real fix is to rewrite their code.
Isa May 17th 2009 1:40PM
I play for dailies mainly. Followed by tokens and honor points. The vast majority of people playing WG stay until one side captures it. This isnt AV where lots of people dont play and only stay to leech honor and tokens.
Id rather play the game with 500 people and lag, than with 5 people. Wintergrasp will be deader than Halaa.
Eisengel May 17th 2009 6:17PM
I would love to play 500 vs 500, but in an actual tactical setting. The problem is that at some point it all degrades to everyone pouring into the fortress and clubbing each other in the head. That's when the lag is horrible. Instead of disincentivizing the zone, Blizz should disincentivize that gameplay. Yes, you need boots on the ground to take the fort, but it should be necessary for the attackers to have forces elsewhere. If the bases used a power-node-type linking system, kind of like Unreal Tournament, then the attackers would need to defend captured bases all the way until victory. Alterac Valley has many different things players can do to help their team, so much so that other than the final assault on the opposing general, I rarely see many more than 5 or 10 players on screen at once at a time.
Sqtsquish May 21st 2009 1:36PM
I'll be completely transparent I have never played WG, in fact I only ever get in there for fishing dailies, but in all honesty WG is currently one of the biggest issues that Blizz can easily fix enabling easier play server-wide on the majority of actual content in the game. If you want massive pvp there are alot of prettier games that do pvp alot better and frankly coming from someone who has been playing for 4 years and knows the opinions of the majority of people who have learned to get their heads out of their rear-ends----we don't want you, we never wanted you if you cannot think for yourself. I'm aware this comment will be unpopular but if you want to downrate my comment because you don't like it instead of actually trying to listen to any of the logic expressed that you are free to do so but that also makes you cattle.
x May 17th 2009 12:32PM
They could divide the zone up into an invisible grid (each section about 40-60yds square) , and only have players and vehicles loaded in the section of the grid that your in. Since all of the terrain is pre loaded, whenever you pass over to another section the players would load almost instantly, and the lag would be cut in half.
just an idea.. i have no idea how difficult (or easy) this would be on blizzards part.
Avan May 17th 2009 2:50PM
That wouldn't work. The server would still track the players, so theres no load taken off there.
Oh, and can you say exploits? Dancing between boundaries to avoid damage?
x May 17th 2009 6:06PM
Even if the server is still tracking the players it wouldn't have to render them and the spell effects around them, that would at least decrease the lag somewhat.
As for exploits, the players would still take damage by players in other sectors, they simply wouldn't be visible unless they were in the same square.
For example, if someone casts a fireball from one sector to another the player on the receiving end would still take the damage, they just wouldn't see the fireball until it passed over the boundary.
Avan May 17th 2009 6:12PM
"Even if the server is still tracking the players it wouldn't have to render them and the spell effects around them, that would at least decrease the lag somewhat."
Rendering issues are not lag, its the mediocracy of your graphics card. It would improve framerate, but not lag.
"As for exploits, the players would still take damage by players in other sectors, they simply wouldn't be visible unless they were in the same square."
Nope. You wouldn't be able to target a player in another section because you can't see them. Same way how you can't target an invisible mage or stealthed rogue, because you can't see them.
x May 17th 2009 6:17PM
"Rendering issues are not lag, its the mediocracy of your graphics card. It would improve framerate, but not lag."
Cant argue with that.
"Nope. You wouldn't be able to target a player in another section because you can't see them. Same way how you can't target an invisible mage or stealthed rogue, because you can't see them."
You would still be able to attack them if you had them targeted before they moved out of the sector, or you could /target them or, you could target them if a party or raid member had them targeted.
Anyway, i dont think blizz will do this for a variety of reasons, just an idea though.
danawhitaker May 17th 2009 12:34PM
"Do you want to do dailies or do you want you PLAY WINTERGRASP? "
This is what they're banking on. That the people playing Wintergrasp and doing the dailies genuinely enjoy PVP but play Wintergrasp instead of *other* battlegrounds because it's better honor and another source of Stone Keeper's Shards. Your assertion that people just in there doing the dailies should get out is pretty presumptuous. Just because I do a daily while doing an activity doesn't mean I don't enjoy the activity and won't try to play "right". Although, admittedly, we've seen the result of what happens when there's a quest or achievement that shifts the way a PVP situation is played.
They have gone out of their way to make the old-world battlegrounds accessible to people. Queue from anywhere. You can be in the middle of nowhere and queue for any battleground. Can't do that with Wintergrasp. It still doesn't matter, it won't stop people from wanting to play Wintergrasp either. Blizzard takes a frustrating position between Old World and Expansion content sometimes. In most cases, when people ask for improvements to old world and BC content, Blizzard's response is the equivalent of "STFU and go play in Northrend". But when something in Northrend isn't working, like Wintergrasp, their response is for people to balance out the population problem and reduce lag by playing old world battlegrounds. What's wrong with that picture? Plenty, if you ask me.
I admit, I prefer the instanced nature of the other battlegrounds to the "show up in Dalaran and yell for a raid invite" nature of Wintergrasp. But if they make it instanced only, what happens to the fishing daily that's currently there, or all the ore that people go in to get ore outside of battle times? And, like people pointed out, when you have multiple groups running it you're going to get horde and alliance sometimes winning, screwing up the Essence of Wintergrasp in Northrend.
Jaiyeson May 17th 2009 12:38PM
Screw all this less wintergrasp bs. The reality is this. WG is the best pvp zone in the game. Its fun! Thats why people play in it. Alot of people are pvp gear capped out and they still play it cause its fun. Its bad enough that we have to wait 2 and a half hours for a game that could last about 8-10 mins before we have to wait another 2:30 hrs. The solution for this seems simple to me to make it less of a lag fest. Make WG every hour or 30 mins. This way you dont have everyone ram rodding into one wg cause they might log out before the next one starts etc.
DataShade May 17th 2009 12:45PM
I actually haven't done Wintergrasp regularly since the week I hit 80. I have too many dailies, too many guild raids, too many alts to worry about that. Making it once a week means I'll be able to squeeze it in, so hopefully all you angry PVP slap-happy angry dweebs actually do quit like you're threatening to.
bitssy May 17th 2009 12:47PM
I play wintergrasp for the honor, the dailies, and most important of all...world pvp. Making the dailies into weekly event will just cause more problems. Instancing wintergrasp is not logical-both horde and alliance may, at one time, hold control of wintergrasp---bigger headache. Blizzard wants us to play the old world battlegrounds? Well, make them more appealing--bring back the military titles-in this time of achievements, who wouldnt want a military title? All my hordie toons have them, but none of my alliance toons. The old world battlegrounds are the only mechanism where ALL realms can queue up and play together as a team. Wintergrasp is wonderful, Blizzard has a mega-hit on its hands and can't quite figure out how to control it, so they use the old stand-by-THE NERF BAT! Not a reputable idea from a company I am fast learning not to trust. They make sure they get their money for play time every month, but this time-BLIZZARD-YOU SUCK!
Cyanea May 17th 2009 12:53PM
One thing that might make attacking the southern targets more appealing is some faster way of travelling between say...the Keep and the southern towers. I'm sure quite a lot of the people that are hanging out fighting for the Keep are only doing it because there's more targets there. More targets = more honor, especially when you have those players who are just there for honor (saved to VoA for the week, swimming in Shards like I'm sure most people are by now, and at 80 so they get no benefit from the exp gain). I'll even admit that I've thought that way from time to time as well. I'm not suggesting like...instant transportation between sides, but something like...a 300% mounted speed buff when outside of the keep or something. Make travelling to the towers faster and make it more appealing for players who might want to escape the lag of the fortress, but don't want to reduce their number of potential targets for honor.
Navigator_Black May 17th 2009 1:01PM
I'm not particularly keen on PVP but I do really enjoy WG a lot. It's big, it's crazy, it's fun and most importantly it's *short*. When I go to WG, I know I'm not going to be locked into the thing for anywhere from half an hour to over an hour doing tedious back and forth running with some yahoo belting out orders in chat.
The first time I went into WG we were on offense and it was like a beach head attack, the lot of us storming the keep while artillery rains down and the Allies are trying to take us out. It's fantastic and probably one of the best designed elements in WoW right now. Which is why so many people play. It's the one BG where I feel like I'm actually contributing and not just corpse running, and that has tremendous appeal.
It's rather sad that the one thing Blizzard really excelled at with this expansion has to be nerfed because it's too well done. I can't imagine going back to Arathi Basin or Alterac Valley or god forbid WSG ever again. And really, I'd rather deal with the lag than have the thing be nerfed down to dissuade interest and to funnel people back to the old BGs.
In terms of fixing it, I think the idea of upping the frequency of battles would help, and put a debuff on people coming out so they can't go right back in for certain period of time. Have WG up every 30 minutes, but when you're done you can't go back for another, say, hour. This way everyone can filter through at a better pace but each battle won't be crammed with the same people as last time.
Trying to fix it by saying "Oh, no, you don't want to do this fun thing, here, go play in this crappy BG instead!" is not the way to go about resolving the issue.
Clbull May 17th 2009 1:00PM
In my opinion, the battleground/world pvp at level 80 is currently quite crap.
Wintergrasp often turns into 80 v 500 lag fests (due to server imbalances and the fact that Tenacity doesn't completely balance the game), and I think the only solution to truly fix it is to make it instanced, and not once every 3 hours, like an actual battleground.
As for the other battlegrounds, they're alright to play but the rewards aren't good. They require you to farm large amounts of honor just for 1 piece of armor that is 1 - 2 seasons weaker than the stuff you can get into Arena. As a result, BGs just feel like a grindfest to get prepared for Arena.
Furlover May 17th 2009 1:05PM
I was and am getting bored fast of the game and it's repetition and constant nerfing not to mention how totally broken noskillrequiredadins are at the moment in any aspect of PvP. Sadly there is nothing else worth playing atm until SC2 + D3 come out.
I did however really really like Wintergrasp and was surprised that it was done so well. The lag is unbearable in there when you have something like 40 vs 40 or maybe more in the zone but the battle is epic! :D
I know Blizz have a huge number of servers and stuff but wtf at this change - the justification and 'reason' is really really weak. Fix the lag instead of gimping the aspects of Wintergrasp - wake up plz and stop being so cheap - you're making over $100,000,000 per month on subscriptions and you can't figure out how to fix this besides gimping dailies associated with it? :S
Cryogenist May 18th 2009 10:17AM
I think I have to take blizzards side on this one.
Steven M May 17th 2009 1:43PM
On my realm in wintergrasp the horde are almost always outnumbered like 3 to 1 by the alliance, if they did some kind of a battleground thing and limit the players in each then it would be balanced more and the lag would be relieved.
augray May 17th 2009 8:58PM
Well now that blizz has seen why WG succeds, they can make this new bg they have under dev even better. They can easily make it feel epic with new vehicles and aerial combat (like the kind that is on the wotlk box art).