From our readers: Always a DPSer, never a tank
by Amanda Dean 
May 18th 2009 at 11:00AM
We get a lot of email from our readers who are trying to improve their in-game experience. I'd like to take a moment to address a reader who's struggling to find or make the right guild. Beware of the following wall of text.I started playing over a year ago. Never have been able to find a good guild. I'm a warrior tank. Love it. Even made a second just for fun. Trouble is, it seems all of the guilds that can do anything already have their tanks. I'm really sick of pugging Ulduar and getting stuck on kologarn cause either healers or the other tanks fail.
I started my own guild after my leaving my last guild because they refused to let me tank. I couldn't even roll on tank gear as fury when all of their tanks had all best in slots. But my guild is stuck with 36 level 80s who are never all on at the same time... and most of the ones that are on are under-geared or aren't skilled in the least bit. what's your advice?
Dear anonymous reader,
Sometimes starting your own guild is the answer, sometimes it's not. It takes time, patience, and vigilance to build a raid guild. Be sure to check out Scott Andrew's Officer's Quarters. He regularly addresses the ups and downs of guild leadership and offers practical advice on the challenges you may face.
While your players need to be dedicated to progression, you need to be pretty dedicated to your members. Sometimes your guildies need some gentle encouragement, and sometimes they need a kick in the pants. Be sure to make your expectations clear to them and provide them with resources to improve their performance. It helps when you run instances with them for upgrades and to gauge their abilities.
To get people on schedule, mark your guild calendar with set runs and stick to them. Even if you have to pug out some or most of the spots, your guildies will learn your raid times and make their best efforts to be there. You can't control people schedules (jobs, families, school, etc come first), but you can give them a stable expectation for their WoW time.
My guild mixes it up with another guild of approximately the same size and same level of progression. We've been running our own 10-man Naxx, OS, and Vault raids, but draw from both for 25 mans. Our heavy hitters are taking on Maly 10 and Ulduar 10 while we work on getting folks geared for the next level of progress. You'd be surprised by how many guilds are in the same circumstance.
If you choose to do this, be fair when it comes to gear and assignments with your counterparts'. Make your expectations clear with both guilds and when you all are together, treat them like your own. It really helps to stay in regular contact with the other guild leader.
I have to admit that this has it's drawbacks. Sometimes it still feels like "us versus them," and neither of our guilds are willing to merge into the other. As the overall raid leader, I can get frustrated trying to keep track of everyone's schedule. Sometimes I feel like I can't communicate well enough with members of the other guild. It's not a perfect, long-term solution, but it does keep both of our guilds active in progression while we support growth in our own members.
As for not being able to tank, that takes flexibility. Dual specs have really opened up the tanking pool, and given tanks DPS and healing options when tank spots are full. It makes sense that you can't roll on tank gear until the established tanks have gotten their fill. That being said, once the tanks are geared most guilds will pass off to off specs before they disenchant. If you're stuck in a role that you don't really want, work it, be the best you can be at it, and build the set of your dreams with spare parts.
There is also the option of finding a guild that meets your needs. It does very little good to be a part of a raid guild that can't work together due to scheduling constraints or personality conflicts. You may be able to find a tanking spot that's just right for you if you peek around a little.
In sum, you have four choices choices:
1. Be patient and work with your own guild.
2. Be patient and work with another guild.
3. Run as DPS and build a tank set.
4. Find a guild that needs you as much as you need them.
Whichever you decide, best of luck to you.
For love, for honor, for pony,
mandy
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Raiding, Classes
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
satria May 18th 2009 11:13AM
Im in a very similar position with my prot pally. my first character, 80 resto shaman on another server, cleared most of pre 3.1 content. however when i started my pally on another sevrer (all my friends rolled alliance...bastards) i was in a position where i had experience but no achievements to link to prove it. most guilds i enquire about seem to be full on tanks an while i have holy as my off spe i dont enjoy it nearly as much as tanking. ive thought of starting my own guild but again without the gear and achievements its hard to recruit people who are serious abut progression. ive ended up pugging naxx a few times with little success but ah well hopefully find a guild that suits my needs soon :P
btw if any guilds on Aerie Peak EU are looking for a prot pally whisp satria in game :P (doesnt hurt to do a bit of advertising while i moan )
Avrsion May 18th 2009 7:12PM
http://www.altruismguild.com/
Never hurts to apply, if we don't need you now then it helps the process later! :)
ShamanHealer May 18th 2009 11:13AM
In my experience there is a reasonable turn over in raiders across all aspects of the raid (healers, dps and tanks). Patience should yield some results. Failing that it should be possible to find a suitable guild, even if it necessitates a realm transfer.
Starting your own guild is a large undertaking and building a successful raiding guild that will progress at in Ulduar is even harder.
My 1st choice would be patience, but keeping an ear to the ground for a possible guild that would require a tank.
Karilyn May 18th 2009 11:13AM
Blegh. Sounds like where I was a while ago.
Bossy May 18th 2009 11:20AM
I quote:
"I'm really sick of pugging Ulduar and getting stuck on kologarn cause either healers or the other tanks fail."
It's always the others and certainly the healers and the tanks isn't it ?
LOL
I am fed up with my healer. I only play DPS as of tomorrow.
And then they wonder why they don't find healers and tanks in dungeons.
LOL
steve May 18th 2009 11:26AM
i think his attacks on the tanks were made cause he feels he can tank better but just insnt being allowed
his attacks on the healers however....unforgivable
Clevins May 18th 2009 11:47AM
Yeah, this jumped out at me as did the comment about the other 80s in his guild aren't skilled in the least. Look in the mirror buddy... wit your attitude, I wonder if the issue is that people don't want to raid with someone so damn negative.
anonymoose May 18th 2009 12:15PM
Actually, I think it's important to look closely at what he is saying--he's noting that *pugging* yields questionable results in terms of the other tanks & healers. While there are always multiple sides to every story, I think it's important to acknowledge there is a great deal of truth to this.
I was in a pug Naxx this weekend on an alt with the most horrible DK "tank". While I won't go into the numerous ways in which this tank was horrible (and they are many), the other tanks and healers found it incredibly frustrating to work with this person. Never forget that with the increase in "casualization" of the game, it's far easier for baddies or those who are simply new and inexperienced (they are different things) to waltz into pug runs these days, so I think the claim that the tank has encountered awful healers & tanks is probably not so far fetched.
PeeWee May 18th 2009 12:35PM
It's always somebody else's fault, didn't you know that? You can be the T7 elemental shaman doing 800 DPS in Ulduar and it's still not your fault the raid can't meet the enrage timer. Or being the keyboard-turning mutilation rogue who rolled Need on Fool's Bane back in Karazhan, or the hunter who gemmed for +Spirit... you could be any of these, and it's still never your fault. Just like everyone in the slammer was innocent.
M S May 18th 2009 12:43PM
He's talking about Pug's. Frequently, both roles are being filled by folks who think they can do it but don't know what it entails.
Emalon is a more basic example, but I was in a failed pug as a healer. The MT was capable and I'd raid with him/her any day. The raid leader was OT, and said he/she knew the fight and had done it before. He/she left out that they'd dps'ed it and it wasn't until he got defensive said "I'm DEF capped!" as a response to when folks asked why he was so squishy, that it was clear he "had tank gear" but wasn't a tank. We had a strong paly healer and disc priest focused on him, who were successful in Ulduar, struggling to keep up even with my Hots.
This is common to a lot of the pugs I've seen. Failed dps is survivable in a pug. Failed tanks or heals will kill you, not the boss
Jyotai May 18th 2009 1:48PM
PUGs are their own special brand of world.
I tried PUGing OS-10 last night. I've got 2 naxx tanks, so while one went with the guild, the other wasn't saved and I figured, this'll be easy and a quick few emblems.
First off we had a person quit when the raid lead said we were going to do it with 0 drakes up. To me, that was just fine - a PUG is not where you go to get achievements. Make the encounter as simple as possible so we can just farm emblems and get out.
But we zone in and I pull the first drake - left side, and its a near instant wipe - not one of the people entered the portal, and several went down from standing in the blue voids. many of these were people who complained about the above 0-drakes ruling.
IE: They'd read about the achievement, wanted it, but had never been in OS. They missed the most basic part of the strat. Me? I think I knew the mini-raid second best of the group, and this was my third time ever in there (the night my guild farms OS is a night I don't play WoW - so its kind of become a place the OTs and newbies can gear up).
Second try, almost the same result. This time everyone but one healer. me, and the OT enters the portal. Well, OT dies maybe 30 secs later from standing in a blue void. And of course everyone else dies because they entered the portal and had no tank...
That's kind of typical for a PUG.
You get lots of people who feel they're GTG, but haven't read the strats, refuse to accept blame for obvious mistakes, and simply feel because they've been good up to now they can farm anything at its highest difficulty for achievements.
You also get a lot of people on alt-roles in PUGs. A guild tank on his healer or DPS, a DPS trying out a tank or healer, or a healer trying a tank or DPS. They often have an over-developed sense of their abilities. They're good in their usual role, but haven't really learned their alt - even at level 80, as much as they think they have.
Once you get used to running with your usual team, PUGs start to feel more and more rough.
If you're solution to not being able to be a guild tank is to become a PUG tank, then well - you're going to be dealing with a lot of bad play, and you probably can rightly blame many of the others. But if that tank is your alt, there are good odds you're not much better than your fellow PUG mates.
Moonduh May 18th 2009 11:21AM
It sounds like it's time for you to pick up a DPS set and start scroungin around for 1k gold. Dual specs, if you don't already have it, would be a lifesaver in your case.
Erogroth May 18th 2009 11:25AM
Well first off, good job on starting a guild and getting 36 members. I am in a guild that has been around since launch and we have had the same core people since the beginning. We have gone through 4 mergers and even disbanded and split into 2 guilds for a while only to reform a year latter. But our core is still there.
Build yourself a good core. Find the people that are going to be the most dedicated, those who really make the push to succeed. They will become your officers and help you make the push.
My guild has had problems running 25 mans since wrath launched and being on a very old server with so many guilds the pickings are slim for good recruits. We have gone out and recruited people who are either new to WoW or rerolled new characters on our server and are still in need of gear. We now break our raids into naxx runs an ulduar runs doing OS and Maly when ever we see fit. This is mostly 10 man runs by the way although we can pull ogg a 18 man naxx fairly easily.
The point is take the time to gear your new people up. Naxx is a great place to learn to work together and get into the flow of things. Use your calendar and a website to communicate with everyone. A guild website is essential to success. Find out what nights are the best for everyone and plan your raid nights there. We do 3 set raid nights and a floating night that changes every week to see what night we get the most people on and then we adjust our schedule based on that. Good luck.
Sinthar May 18th 2009 11:28AM
Someones been reading too much LFG methinks
FOR PONY!!!
Warruz May 18th 2009 11:27AM
Im going to give my advice iv lead a good portion of guilds and been apart of plenty throughout wow. And there are a few things il say that should help, them being good or bad to others, focus being on you.
I myself is a tank and will accept no other role, i wont heal and i wont DPS, Tanking is what i enjoy to do, if im not going to be able to tank i simply leave the guild im in, im here to have fun and tanking to me is fun thus i will settle for no less.
Now as you said sometimes guilds dont need tanks and the longer guilds being around the less the need from you, even if they need tanks, dont be so inclined to join right away, well established guilds who need tanks usually dont need a full time tank, they need a tank when there tanks arnt on. So keep a eye out with this, iv joined 2 guilds with this issue where they over recruit and stick with there core anyway and dont go outside that group until needed. You wont be getting much raid time.
If you dont see guilds that need you, make one, but understand making one requires a plan of attack. First off make sure when you get people you dont get just any people, make sure to get people around your gear and goals. I recently came back after a 3 month break and ran a guild prior who cleared all the content at the time being. I have come back and i dont like the leadership in most of the guilds on the server, so i made my own and made it clear the goals where, essentially we are a ulduar only guild and arnt taking people who still need plenty of gear from naxx. Just by this iv gained back some of my old guildies from before and other looking to move on who are stuck in there guild.
Have a plan of attack, make sure you complete most of w/e your goal is before getting and 2nd group if your wish is 25 mans. ITs a general rule of thumb, that way come time for group 2, groups done fall behind, you split your original group up with the new ones and go from there, keep in mind you can only do so much.
Im sure this next part is something you wont here anywhere else. Sometimes destroying a guild is your best bet. Yup i said it, ever been in a guild with alot of cool issues but there is a glarring problem that everyone accepts and you cant change due to leadership or something(usually tends to be a asshole leader,something to do with loot,or raids in general)? well dont just leave, use it to your advantage. This is your moment to make a coup , talk to other fed up with it, make a big stink when the glaring issue comes up, take your following with you. Bam new guild on your terms.
hope this helps :)
Chri May 18th 2009 11:29AM
I think you need to either pick a guild that may not be as organised or progressed as you wish (but will let you tank) or you need to go with fury and live vicariously through the existing guild tanks for a while.
I don't think starting your own guild is the answer - at least, not unless there are other reasons why you want to start your own guild.
Find a guild you really like, with tanks that you can respect and learn from, and just let them know that you're interested in tanking. Ask them about it, theorycraft it whatever. Run heroics as a tank with guild members. Once you have won them over, they will offer you chances to tank I'm sure. It just might not be each run for the entire raid.
SpaceGoatPriest May 18th 2009 11:37AM
LOL. We have the opposite problem in our guild. Most of our tanks quit playing, and the players that are classes that can tank are "DPS".
Which ironically those players are generally the ones that complain that we don't raid (due to the lack of tanks).
Andrew May 18th 2009 11:47AM
Alliance guild on Durotan is in need of tanks for all of u without homes. =) We need 2 Ulduar ready tanks to round out our 25 man roster.
Andrew May 18th 2009 11:49AM
On a Boat ^^^ for the above post is the guild name oops = /
Carrie May 18th 2009 11:47AM
If you have 36 lvl80s who are never online at the same time, then you were not selective enough or clear enough with the applicants as to what your raiding expectations were.
If your goal is to get a group of people together at the same time, then you need to know beforehand what those times will be. Say it's 7-10p server M/W/F. Now, when you're advertising your guild, state right up front that those are what your raiding times are. Put them on your website. Put them on the application and ask if they're available to raid at those times (if they aren't, reject the app). Make SURE that anyone you take in can and will be available at those times.
When you're building a group of like-minded people with a similar goal, then taking anyone who comes along won't work. You *must* be selective. It's not being mean - it's simply saving yourself, that person, and all of the guildies who rely on you a lot of time, effort, and headaches. If a recruit can't raid at your times, then he's no good for you, you're no good for him, and he'd be happier with a different guild.
I think at this point you have two choices:
1. Talk with your guildies and come up with set days/times for raiding. The people who cannot commit to those times should be let go so they can find a guild that meets their needs. Then, stick to those times. Set up runs, put them on the calendar. If you've got open spots, spread the word a day or even a few hours early that you're going to have X run at X time and are looking for classes X, Y, and Z. (Spreading the word involves your realm forum, trade chat, general chat, LFG channel, friends lists, guildies' friends lists, etc.)
2. Scrap your guild and find one that meets your raiding needs. Spend your time there watching what they do and how they do it. Running a guild is a lot more difficult than it looks, as you've learned. An excellent source of recruiting guilds is as close as the official guild recruitment forum:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/board.html?forumId=7244843&sid=1 (for Alliance)
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/board.html?forumId=7244844&sid=1 (for Horde)
Don't aim for a guild that's already most of the way through Ulduar; look for one that's at YOUR level of progression.