i also voted for engineering, as its one of the only professions ( besides BS) that I've never seriously levelled and it would be interesting to see someone working through it and hopefully point out to me how it could be fun and useful.

What is wrong with mining? I have leveled multiple toons up with mining and don't see how it is any worse than any other gathering profession. I prefer it to herbing because nearly all the nodes are located along zone boundaries or other areas with moutains. And there is nothing wrong with engineering, it has always been the gimmick profession. It doesn't exist just to give some minor buff for PVE.

"And there is nothing wrong with engineering"

Engineering is currently 32 itemization points (or more) behind all crafting professions for PVE. This is completely unbalanced, and is a very obvious "something wrong" with Engineering.

@Rilgon

Way to miss the point. Engineering is about gimmicks (many of which are useful in PVP) and always has been. Where is my flying mount for enchanting (I have one for tailoring, it is seriously the only good thing about that profession. Cheap spellthread just saves a bit of money it isn't unique)? Or blacksmithing?

If your worst complaint is "waaah the iLevel isn't the same as everyone elses" why did you bother being an engineer when it has never had a good endgame PVE item except for the headpieces in TBC? And Blizzard have quite clearly stated they don't want to have 'must have' crafted profession only items anymore.

Engineering is about gimmicky trinkets, not awesome end game gear.

And you too have missed the point. By putting Engineering at such a stark disadvantage in PVE, it effectively means that I am being forced to NOT be an Engineer, should I wish to optimize my PVE performance, much like melee DPS were forced to BE Blacksmiths for high-quality weapons, or many cloth casters were forced to BE Tailors for best-in-slot gear.

And trust me, I'd gladly trade a slightly different flying mount model (which I don't even USE anymore - I'm much more fond of my Bronze Drake) for the 2 extra gem sockets that Blacksmithing gives or the ring enchants that Enchanting gives. And if you're a Tailor, you have no room to talk - Lightweave Embroidery is the best cloak enchant for any caster in the game, and Swordguard Embroidery is the best cloak enchant for any physical DPS in the game!

Right because Engineers should get all their trinkets and other gimmicks AND have the same PVE advantage. /massive eye roll

Tailoring, blacksmithing, leatherworking etc are primarily about crafting gear for endgame, and have got a couple of unique PVE buffs. Engineering was never about that, and still isn't about that, it was and is still more PVP focused. And no you don't NEED any profession for endgame. I seriously doubt you are in a hardcore enough guild that they won't take you to raids unless your character is completely optimised. No one in TBC was forced to take a crafting profession to maximise PVE, they just gave you a quick leg up (except maybe spriests because the only stat they cared about in TBC was +damage, and FSW was best in slot until mid T6) all that gear got replaced in T5-6. I don't recall casters not being allowed to raid because they hadn't levelled enchanting for the ring enchants.

Professions are meant to be like classes, they don't all do the same thing. It isn't just some fluff with an identical PVE buff.

Just admit it. You didn't level engineering for what engineering was about, you just did it for the goggles back in TBC.

"Right because Engineers should get all their trinkets and other gimmicks AND have the same PVE advantage. /massive eye roll"

What trinkets and gimmicks? 90% of our pre-Wrath stuff no longer works, and the only trinkets we have in Wrath are completely worthless, unless you're a newly gearing up tank.

"I don't recall casters not being allowed to raid because they hadn't levelled enchanting for the ring enchants."

I do. Are you conveniently forgetting Sunwell?

"Just admit it. You didn't level engineering for what engineering was about, you just did it for the goggles back in TBC."

I've been an Engineer since day 1 of WoW's original release. I took it up because it was fun, quirky, and powerful in the right situations. It had things that could either go my way (Gnomish Shrink Ray on Vaelastrasz to reduce his chain-cleave radius, anyone?), or that could go disastrously wrong (MC cap on the main tank of someone taking on the Emerald Dragons of Nightmare). It gave me boosts in PVE (Hyper-Radiant Flame Reflector against Vael ring a bell?), and if I wanted to PVP (which I usually didn't), bombs were a massive tide-swinger.

Engineering has none of that any longer. It is not fun, it is not quirky, and it sure as hell doesn't give me more power in ANY situation. Get a clue.

Then why aren't you complaining about the lack of good trinkets and not just low iLevel PVE items (which is why I dropped engineering on my mage in TBC and took up another gathering profession) or unique abilities?

And considering nitro boosts just got a nerf some people are obviously still using the gimmicks (and I would say engineers are still better off than at TBC launch).

And as to my professions, I choose them to maximize my character. I would much rather those buffs didn't exist and I could just run two gathering skills and rake in the money. If you want to maximize for PVE you have to make sacrifices.

I didn't mention items at all. I mentioned perks.

Let us review, for the class, the perks of each crafting profession in PVE:

Blacksmithing: Decent-quality ilvl200 epic boots and helms, plus two extra gem sockets - the epics are replaced, but the sockets last forever as long as you're a Blacksmith, for a bonus of 32 itemization points.
Leatherworking: Decent-quality ilvl200 epic leggings, boots, belts, and shoulders, plus extremely powerful wrist enchants - the epics are replaced, but the enchants last forever as long as you're a Leatherworker, for a bonus of 32 itemization points.
Enchanting: The ability to disenchant unwanted gear, plus ring enchantments - disenchanting ability never goes away, and the ring enchants last forever as long as you're an Enchanter, for a bonus of 32 itemization points.
Jewelcrafting: Decent-quality ilvl200 rare trinkets, plus three Dragon's Eye prismatic gems - the trinkets are replaced, but the gems last forever as long as you're a Jewelcrafter, for a bonus of 33 itemization points, plus the ability to use desired stat gems in off-color sockets (i.e. Stamina in red for tanks, Agility in Blue for Hunters), plus the ability to not use off-color gems to activate your Meta.
Tailoring: Decent-quality ilvl200 epic chests and boots, plus powerful cloak embroideries - the epics are replaced, but the embroideries last forever as long as you're a Tailor, for a bonus of 50 itemization points for physical DPS and 71 itemization points for a caster.
Alchemy: Mixology, which doubles the duration and increases the efficacy of all elixirs and flasks you use which you can brew - Mixology lasts forever as long as you're an Alchemist, for a bonus of 32 itemization points.
Inscription: Decent-quality offhands, Scrolls of Recall, and extremely powerful shoulder enchants - the offhands are replaced, but the shoulder inscriptions last forever as long as you're a Scribe, for a bonus of 32 itemization points.
Engineering: Decent-quality ilvl200 epic helms and decent-quality ilvl200 rare trinkets - the epics and rares are replaced, and nothing else benefits the user, for a bonus of 0 itemization points.


Do you see the disparity there? Or are you just blind?

Blizzard could make Engineering good so very easily, which is part of the source of frustration for people like Rilgon and I. The problem they've failed to deal with in Engineering, despite having dealt with it fairly well in other areas of the game, is that the nature of Engineering tends towards effects that disproportionately benefit Arena play. Mind control caps, Nitro Boosts, GLGs, even the Hyperspeed Accelerators for a very narrow subset of classes and specs - all of these things are extremely powerful when taken into an Arena setting because on-demand utility is so highly valued there.

There are quite a few possibilities to make Engineering tinkers useful again - for example, give the Hyperspeed Accelerators a +crit counterpart, call them Powered Glove Whomperdingers, but balance them by going with something like:

Use: Increases critical strike rating by (insert value) for 15 seconds, but increases the critical strike chance of all attacks made against the caster by (insert value)% for the duration. 2 minute cooldown.

Wham, PvE utility for DPS and healers, and a serious risk for use in PvP. But that's just an idea I whipped up in 30 seconds. What's frustrating is that Blizzard doesn't seem interested in coming up with any such solution.

The way i see it is your main flaw is comparing pure PVE itemization points of professions and not the professions themselves. If your shooting for max possible BIS then engineering sucks but of all the professions engineering gives you a ton of conveniences others dont.

Mailbox anywhere
Repair bots
Rocket boots (It has its uses)
Flying mount (yeah tailors get one too but flying carpets are girly)
Gas cloud extraction
Lock opening
Da choppa (Yeah its BOE but you can make a fortune just making it for people with thier mats or selling them on the AH)
Jumper cables (Yeah its unreliable but no other profession has anything comparable)

Engineers pretty much get all the little gimicks and special conveniences of every profession and then some. Expecting to get the same itemization benefit on top of everything else is just assinine and greedy. You may not use all the little tools engineering has to offer but thats not the fault of blizzard or the profession.

When you look at the stat bonuses of other professions its easy to say engineering sucks and for you it might, but it has enough gimmicks to make it worth picking up for plenty of people.

"but of all the professions engineering gives you a ton of conveniences others dont"

Everything you listed is either completely superfluous (the mounts and the mailbox), easily replaced (repair bots), never implemented in Wrath (lock opening), inferior to the options available to everyone else (the Zapthrottle), or unreliable and reliant on class (the jumper cables).

And the fact that you list the Mechanohog/Mekgineer's Chopper as a "perk" shows how absolutely out of touch you are with reality. No one pays these "huge tips" that you claim. The best offer I've ever had to have one made was 500g, which is an absolute insult.

I have a suggestion for the both of you.

Why don't you both, shut the hell up? Seriously? Clearly you two can't agree with each other so why not just agree to disagree and let bygones be bygones. You both have different opinions, and if you really want to continue this seemingly pointless argument why not do it on an instant messenger, via e-mail or in-game instead of clogging the comments with this crap?

No offence, but I want to read peoples comments on the poll options chosen. Not how Engineering sucks or doesn't suck.

You consider a 500 gold tip an insult to click combine and im out of touch...

Based on your comments here you just sound like a baby that wants more stats because you dont use the tools provided by engineering. I say get over it and reroll another proff you clearly missed the whole point of engineering.

Just because YOU dont use the tools provided dont mean they should change the whole proffession.

"You consider a 500 gold tip an insult to click combine and im out of touch... "

For something that by every measure should've been Engineer-only? You're god-damn right it's an insult.