Forum post of the day: The end of big guilds
by Amanda Dean 
May 23rd 2009 at 6:00PM
Oldmaveric of Azgalor posed the question on the General Discussion Forum: are Big guilds on their way out due to easy WoW? He suggested that easier content on 10 man raids and regular content nerfs has led to the breakdown of some of the top guilds and caused players to quit the game.Savvage of Spinebreaker quickly responded that big guilds have their place, but "People can now play in closer more tightly-knit groups..." For many players, raiding offers sufficient challenge while being more enjoyable than it once was. The raiding experience is not only more accessible, but also more fun. Smaller guilds can afford to be more selective of the online personalities of their membership, while still being able to to make progress.
That being said, there are still many people who are not willing to put time and effort into raiding. They seem to want to have epics handed to them, without going through the proper progression. I've seen many come into raids completely unprepared. They don't study the fights, but instead believe that they can "tank and spank" their way through anything. This simply isn't the case with most raid bosses. Raids still require adequate preparation. Just because you can get in the door does not mean you're ready to roll.
Blizzard has also added content for those seeking more of a challenge. Awyer of Cho'Gall noted that very few guilds have "hard mode" achievements under their belts. For some, WoW may be "World of Borecraft" as the OP puts it, but there are still opportunities for the top guilds to build and excel. WoW will always have its rock stars, but you don't need to be one to enjoy the endgame content. I believe this is as the developers wanted it, and thus it is so.
There are still guilds out there with massive rosters. There are still guilds out there pushing the edge of content. There are just many more smaller guilds that have an endgame presence.
As a side note to Sternbridge of Blood Furnace. If you want to move away from keyboard turning, it just takes a little bit of reflex training. Get a feel for moving with your mouse. Run through cities and buildings until you are comfortable with it. Then go into an easy area, maybe somewhere in Outland and bind your keys. Give it an hour or so. Even if it's a little frustrating at first it'll soon be easy and natural.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Raiding, Forums, Forum Post of the Day
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Masarah May 23rd 2009 6:21PM
Big guilds will always be around, particular the ones with well established reputations. WotLK has just meant that smaller guilds can now prosper as well which is great.
Richwarf May 25th 2009 7:56PM
To true, My guild was duel running nax, But my guild started long before WoW even hit beta, We started in 1999, yes the guild is 10 years old, in that him we have gone and used 6 vents, 3 websites and 5 board resets. And that just since i been with the guild, i joined about 2001? Yes i cant rember when i joined the guild.
Yes that right the guild is older that the game, and it been about a longer that i been playing MMONRPG's, It started back in Ultima Online, which is 11 yrs old?
We have over 450 members and hit the guild cap more that once, to stop us hitting the cap we have a rule of if that toon not been played more that 1 moth it will be removed, when you do play on that toon again just find a officer to let you back in :) (i never needed to do this yet).
Last time i checked we had over 200 accounts (vai /ginfo?).
We are planning or setting back up the 2nd raid group in the next few weeks when we kill a boss, i cant rember what one since i not been picked for a few weeks :(
So try and say big guilds are dieing out, and i am sure there are other guilds so are like us, and no we are not a raiding guild, we are a social guild that raids and we happen to be in the top 10 for the releam (lol)
Richwarf May 25th 2009 7:58PM
*note to self, read before i press add comment*
arrrrgh
P.S. where the edit/remove buttons gone?
Lifefire May 23rd 2009 6:27PM
I know several that are quitting the game in the high end guilds. The main thing is fighting hard mode bosses is not the same as working your way through instances like naxx(40 man) or Black temple, or even Kara as a high end guild.
When you do a hard mode, you are not learning a new fight. Your simply doing the same fight with new restrictions. What fun is that? I don't understand why people want to walk through content with no challenge. Have you ever downed a boss after wiping on him for weeks? It's a great feeling of accomplishment.
Right now, my guild has cleared Ulduar with no hard modes, and downed X002, Iron Council, Hodir, and Freya(2 trees) in their hard modes. Yet, I feel we've accomplished almost nothing, as we havn't really worked hard for most of it.
Jim May 24th 2009 4:34AM
"Really, you enjoy wiping on the same boss for a week straight? Then when you got lucky and beat him 1 out of 70 time (since you are hard core I am assuming you wiped 10 times a day 7 days a week) that it gave you great satisfaction"
Not to be a dick but i agree with lifefire, if you put the time and effort into a boss, take my guild trying to get mimiron down for the past 3 raid nights, finally got him friday night and everyone were happy clappy chappys... But Gothia you sound like you have your epics handed to you so why take it out on others?
Artificial May 24th 2009 3:07PM
"I don't understand why people want to walk through content with no challenge."
This is irrelevant. People's tastes differ. I don't understand why a lot of people enjoy the things they do. But I do understand that they do, despite the fact that I wouldn't enjoy the same thing.
The mature attitude to, "to each their own." If person A likes to play one way and person B likes to play another way, let them both play the way they like, and cater to both tastes as much as you can.
The immature attitude is to say, "this is the RIGHT way," (invariably the way THEY prefer), and insist that everyone should be forced to play that way; not let others even have the option to do things differently. "This is the most enjoyable way to play, so Blizzard should make that mandatory." (If you think "the most enjoyable way to play" is a truth for everyone, rather than just a truth for you, you think you're the center of the universe. Alas, that kind of childish attitude is the most common one. You can tell me what you find to be the most enjoyable way to play, but you can't tell me what IS the most enjoyable way to play, as if there was an objective fact of the matter on that.)
Lifefire May 24th 2009 4:11PM
In response to Artificial,
Really, the problem isn't with those who wish to go through easy content. Back in the old system they had a place to do just that. In the old model content was divided up into easy, medium and hard areas. When new content was introduced it became the new hard, and the medium and easy content got moved up through nerfs of that content.
example:
Kara, Gruul's Lair - Easy
SSC, TK - Medium
Hyjal, BT - hard
When the Sunwell was reached it changed to:
Kara, Gruul's Lair, SSC, TK - Easy
Hyjal, BT - Medium
Sunwell - Hard
This was done by nerfing several boss fights and removing the attunements on the instances.
Those who wanted easy content, had access to it. Eventually, you would be able to see all of the new content. Some may argue that once wotlk came out the guilds doing medium and easy would not be able to see sunwell. This is incorrect. at 80 you are free to go back and see the old content in an easier setting.
My problem is that now with the new content, there is no longer a place for people like me.
Adam H. May 23rd 2009 6:39PM
I agree with Masarah.
It should have been worded as the "end of the NEED to be in a big guild" or "the triumph of the smaller guilds"
I am in a very small 5 man guild that has roots in a large 80 man-strong guild that used to have two regular running 40man raids back pre-TBC. Many of our ranks have gone on to larger guilds, esp after Eonar -> Arygos transfer.
But because of our ties to man other long-time players, we can successfully 10-mans but still stick to our 5 man group.
baal80 May 23rd 2009 6:40PM
I couldn't agree more. Nothing is more rewarding than downing a boss for the first time after several weeks worth of tries (RoS, Council, Illidan, Brutallus come to mind).
Hard modes are *not* content, as many before me have stated - and that's why current raiding is simply boring.
And please, spare me this "rose tinted glasses" crap.
Masarah May 23rd 2009 6:57PM
Baal80:
Your unfortunately in the minority as the majority don't take much enjoyment from spending 3 hours wiping on the same boss.
I enjoy the hard mode challenges, they mean having to learn the fight in a different and more challenging way.
Brian May 23rd 2009 7:17PM
Changes are extremely good that you are nowhere near clearing current raid content regularly enough for it to be "boring".
Candina@WH May 23rd 2009 10:19PM
Yeah, the old way wiping for a month on the same boss is over. The hardcore minority can leave the game.
That will leave, what... 10.5 million of the rest of us?
I don't even raid anymore. My time commitments don't allow even a 4 hour session. The fact that I still have fun stuff to do means WoW will survive.
Besides, if the new raids were structured that way, no one would complete them before the next content release. Whats the fun in that? The new stuff is designed to be completed within the first 6 weeks, on farm for the next 12 weeks, 'Oh Look, new raids!'. Rinse repeat.
karoneya May 24th 2009 12:50AM
Masarah:
"Your unfortunately in the minority "
Source? And even if this is correct, the minority (which I think is bigger than you think) pay their monthly fees too. Every majority consists of minorities if you break them down in details, this ignoring every minority means ignoring everyone eventually.
Candinah:
"I don't even raid anymore"
So, your point is that raids are better and more fun now - yet continue to confirm what the OP was saying, that many stop raiding.
Darkrose May 24th 2009 5:45AM
@karoneya:
The source is Blizz. They have stated a couple of times after BC that they felt too many hours of development went into end-game content when offset against the number of players that was actually able to experience said content.
Personally I enjoy being able to have access to different levels of difficulty to choose from when it comes to dungeons and raids. Having said that, I don't believe there is much sense in trying to convince each other that WotLK is or is not an improvement over BC / Vanilla WoW. It feels like telling someone who doesn't like the taste of bananas that they actually should like bananas because I think they do taste good.
Those who feel raiding has been 'nerfed' or 'broken', I just hope you find new ways to keep enjoying the game :).
Jon May 23rd 2009 6:53PM
Sure, there are many people out there that enjoy wiping on the same boss for several weeks. I'd imagine that's a pretty small percent of the WoW population though.
I'm glad Blizzard made raiding more accessible for the rest of us. I think raiding still offers a challenge, and the hard-more option seems like a better idea than a boss that only 1% of the player base will ever even see.
More QQ from the 'elite' raiding community is not the least bit surprising.
Solex May 24th 2009 2:09AM
I don't really think you're giving credit where its due per say, let's face it based on your statement you weren't on the ptrs when they were testing the fights that you're doing on a week to week basis and you're probably not one of the guys who's on Elitist Jerks data mining weapons or crunching numbers to figure out ideal gear or one of the guys on Arena Junkies figuring out what the new hot comp is.
A lot of people give the more bleeding edge guilds grief for downing content fast and I can see it and complaining, like GC said no matter how hard they make the content people will blow through it but at the end of the day they're still customers (which seems to be the common excuse the 10 man crews throw around.) and its because of them beating their heads against content that you're getting the nerfs that are letting these angry casual players in pugs see anything past Flame Leviathan
Kiry May 23rd 2009 6:53PM
As part of a raiding guild that has a successful 25 man, i've been wondering why i'm feelng bored. Is it just too much WoW or is it just as you are saying. Hard modes are the same fight with a twist. A fellow guildie and I were thinking....Is there anything in Ulduar (except legendary for healers) that is the one item you MUST have. That special WOW that's totally cool! Haven't seen it yet.
Also - as much as the 10 mans are fun. I have a preference for 25 mans. there's nothing like the challenge of getting a large group of people to do what they must to get something done. even more so, on fights that are space limiting. lol. It saddens me to see many 25 man guilds fading. :(
danawhitaker May 23rd 2009 7:12PM
I'm really not sure as to the truth of this statement. It works in theory. In theory. Our guild is small, but unfortunately, we cannot scrounge up the people of the right classes to run *any* ten man content just on a guild basis right now. We're finding we need to seek alliances with other guilds who have more healers (the big thing we have a shortage of right now). Nor can we make sure that, even with the right balance of classes, that they're on consistently at the right times to run stuff. Hell, I can't even scrounge up five people to do regular instances, let alone heroics anymore, good luck on ten man content. Either there's no healer available, or the healer and the tank shoot down doing the heroic because it's too hard.
Big guilds, or at least medium size guilds, will always have the advantage over smaller guilds in these areas. They'll have a larger rotation of people, likely a better and varied selection of healers, and enough hardcore people willing to run heroics and gear people so they *can* more easily run 10 and 25 man content. They'll also have people coming on at a wider variety of times to facilitate some earlier runs and late-night runs.
Given a completely static environment, a small guild could accomplish this stuff easily. But the problem is, it's not a static environment. People have real world commitments, and alts that they work on in addition to main characters. The smaller the guild, the more easy it is for the cogs to come off the wheels and for the whole thing to fall apart. There was a great period of time about 1.5-2 months ago where my guild was running heroic instances every nights and we were excited and talking about running 10 mans. Now, my choice when I get on after my daughter is asleep is to PUG a heroic, or work on my meta-goal of the 40 exalted factions. The last time I ran a heroic instance was at the end of Children's Week, when I did Utgarde Pinnacle.
pongo_3931 May 23rd 2009 8:10PM
As someone who has run a guild for 18 months now, and gone from small to (arguably) medium in that time, the only thing I can say is 'quality matters'.
Officers don't have the time to hold the hand of every pampered teen out there and shouldn't try. You'll miss the point. Be patient, recruit hard and watch as many flow out of the guild as those who flow in. But along the way, you will find quality people who will stick.
I know you're an academic (I read these forums) so you'll hopefully understand me when I say all guilds regress towards the mean. That is, we all grow and we all constrict. It's easy to get excited during times of growth and down during times of contraction, patience and good long term members is the key to survival and permanent growth... and for us, has lead to easy 10 man raiding and 25 mans with half pugs. There's more nuance to it than that but on a blog reply... that's the essence of it.
Nystal May 24th 2009 11:30AM
I agree with Pongo above 100% as another Guild Leaeder who has been at it for around 18 months. Describes our guild growth and experience entirely. :)