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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsForum post of the day: The end of big guilds
by Amanda Dean 
May 23rd 2009 at 6:00PM
Oldmaveric of Azgalor posed the question on the General Discussion Forum: are Big guilds on their way out due to easy WoW? He suggested that easier content on 10 man raids and regular content nerfs has led to the breakdown of some of the top guilds and caused players to quit the game.Savvage of Spinebreaker quickly responded that big guilds have their place, but "People can now play in closer more tightly-knit groups..." For many players, raiding offers sufficient challenge while being more enjoyable than it once was. The raiding experience is not only more accessible, but also more fun. Smaller guilds can afford to be more selective of the online personalities of their membership, while still being able to to make progress.
That being said, there are still many people who are not willing to put time and effort into raiding. They seem to want to have epics handed to them, without going through the proper progression. I've seen many come into raids completely unprepared. They don't study the fights, but instead believe that they can "tank and spank" their way through anything. This simply isn't the case with most raid bosses. Raids still require adequate preparation. Just because you can get in the door does not mean you're ready to roll.
Blizzard has also added content for those seeking more of a challenge. Awyer of Cho'Gall noted that very few guilds have "hard mode" achievements under their belts. For some, WoW may be "World of Borecraft" as the OP puts it, but there are still opportunities for the top guilds to build and excel. WoW will always have its rock stars, but you don't need to be one to enjoy the endgame content. I believe this is as the developers wanted it, and thus it is so.
There are still guilds out there with massive rosters. There are still guilds out there pushing the edge of content. There are just many more smaller guilds that have an endgame presence.
As a side note to Sternbridge of Blood Furnace. If you want to move away from keyboard turning, it just takes a little bit of reflex training. Get a feel for moving with your mouse. Run through cities and buildings until you are comfortable with it. Then go into an easy area, maybe somewhere in Outland and bind your keys. Give it an hour or so. Even if it's a little frustrating at first it'll soon be easy and natural.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Raiding, Forums, Forum Post of the Day
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 2)
liu May 23rd 2009 7:33PM
I personally love that you don't need a guild anymore - as someone whose work schedule changes pretty frequently, I can't make the commitment that a guild requires, so when I dinged 60 and 70, I pretty much just quit. Now, I'm able to raid whenever I want to - if I've got some free time on a given night, I head to a city, join LFG, and find a pick up raid, which is generally as good or better than guild runs I've joined. The WoW devs really did something right with WoLK and Hard Modes - there's still stuff for people who want that level of commitment but there's plenty of content for the majority of players too.
epicpwny May 23rd 2009 8:35PM
In some ways, this is a sea change in what it means to raid.
The old model was that you raided for gear, in order to gear up and then down the next boss. There was arguably a greater feeling of accomplishment when you finally cleared a raid, but to turn this around, my crappy 10-man and I finally cleared KT on the 2nd night of trying (just him) on Monday, and we felt pretty good about it. In the old days of vanilla and BC, we wouldn't even have gotten to see that.
The new model, in my view, is that you and a small group of friends can hang out and raid. The enjoyment is not in getting all the best in slot gear, or even in clearing the raid (though I still think that's pretty fun), but in hanging out with your friends.
I personally started playing again, along with a bunch of my old friends from undergrad, for the first time since giving up in disgust trying to PUG Molten Core back in vanilla. Now that we can just raid casually, it's a lot of fun. The enjoyment is in hanging out with the people, with the raid just giving us something to do.
Viper007Bond May 23rd 2009 8:51PM
While I find 10 man content more fun (less to go wrong player wise), 25 is still good. I'm in a guild with about 35 active raiders and it works out well.
OIK2 May 23rd 2009 9:17PM
I am in a progression minded guild. We run a single 25man group 3 nights a week. We are working on Mimeron in Ulduar right now. We are not at the front of progression for the world, or even the server, but night after night we try hard, learn fights, and down bosses. I have little comparison to draw on because I never raided pre-WotLK, but I know that it is the challenge, and the work that goes into it that makes the loot we get worth it.
jeanericuser May 23rd 2009 10:15PM
I think that the time of big guilds will never truly come to an end. It will just be like the circle of life. They will start small, grow big, grow strong, age, grow weak, get smaller, and then die out. The remains will resettle to create a new guild that will share the same fate. As for the content affecting this, that is not a possibility since the content in the end is no true determination of the strength or weakness of a guild. The true strength or weakness of a guild comes from its members. If some lose faith or show a desire to do things that will only weaken the guild then undoubtably it will only be a matter of time before that guild will simply break apart in no small part due to the actions of its very own members who in some cases think they are working in the best interests of the guild while in actuality may just be satisfying their own ideals.
prairiedawg991 May 24th 2009 1:00AM
Honestly i think large guilds are only leveling guilds now.
The last time i saw a successfull raiding guild was in TBC.
theRaptor May 24th 2009 1:02AM
Why would you want to run or even be in a big guild? Seriously. The more people you have in a group the more time is spent on inter-group communication required to organize things and the more sources of friction you have. Large guilds either require very mature players (which we all know WoW is just teeming with) or lifeless Guild leadership that spends most of its time running the guild. And it isn't required for the content, you don't need 60 people minimum just so you can pull together 40 to raid MC. EvE:Online has 6000 player 'guilds' because it is required for the content.
Jaybe May 24th 2009 2:51AM
As far as I'm concerned the 'elite raiders' who want their 40 mans, who want to spend hours and hours attempting one boss for weeks, can find somewhere else to go. They wanna claim that they're not the minority, that it's more then we think, well guess what, you're wrong. You may be 100,000 strong, even a million, but 1 million out of 10 million is still the minority. And Blizzard doesn't cater to them, they cater to the majority. Why? Because it's financially sound. Lose 1 million whiners crying bout how easy their content is? S'okay, got 9 million more.
The only problem I have with raiding now, and yes, I am 100% for 25/10man raiding (I think it's butt-loads better), is this:
"As part of a raiding guild that has a successful 25 man, i've been wondering why i'm feelng bored. Is it just too much WoW or is it just as you are saying. Hard modes are the same fight with a twist. A fellow guildie and I were thinking....Is there anything in Ulduar (except legendary for healers) that is the one item you MUST have. That special WOW that's totally cool! Haven't seen it yet."
Gear is no longer a simple, solid upgrade. In original when you got an epic it was an upgrade. Period. Now, though, when you get an epic it's not an upgrade untill you gem, enchant, modify it 100 times, and even sometimes wait until you have a second piece to make it worth it. It's ridiculous.
A boss dies, get an upgrade. 1 tier content later a boss dies, you should get an upgrade without having to gem/enchant/modify it in anyway.
Marveen May 24th 2009 4:02AM
To me it feels like WoW is coming full-circle - my earliest raiding experiences were class raids to Scholo/Strat/BRS, and since the end of BC (I took a long break in the middle of TBC so I never did 25-mans) I'm back to doing 10-mans.
Our group has 20 people, about a third of which come to every raid, the rest being reservists who can't raid more than 1-2 times a fortnight (parents of very young children, people with heavy RL work schedules, people in service, etc). That's cool to all involved - we're all in the same channel, and even those who aren't very active raiders get to contribute and be part of the friendly banter. The keyword is quality - our raidleader ensures people fit in personality-wise as well as skill-wise, and he's not shy to turn away players who're quite good and skilled, but who can't speak English or who're the wrong personality for our group.
This has made raiding a lot more fun than how I remember being part of a 40-man raidgroup, where you'll never even get to know half the people you raid with, and often ended up "stuck" with someone in your class-channel who typed like a 10-year old child with ADHD and generally presented themselves as assholes. Battles may not feel as epic as a 40-man raid did, but that's a small price to pay for being more selective about who you spend your free time with.
Arctic-Silver May 24th 2009 4:26AM
I think most of you are missing the point here.
40man's worked really well, it was really fun and amasing to see the cooperation in them between guilds/inter guild. Yes it took a lot of work but it also reaped greater rewards.
I started WoW in the earily days, the best thing about them was raiding a 40 man like Moltern Core or Black Wing Lair. They were extremely fun raids.
It was fun to work as a part of a 40 man team, to take down a boss which was so tough you had to be organised. Even if you didnt take him down, you could at least see your improvement in HP.
It was all so brilliantly coordinated. Nothing like todays 25 man raids.
TBC killed 40 man's and a lot of good guilds because they took away the need for class leaders, they took away the need for all 40 players active in the one guild. The great guild i was in got a hell of a lot smaller because of it.
I may not be doing a very good job of explaining it, but anyone who has done a 40 man with a organised guild will know what i mean, they were extremely fun, losing them is one of the major reasons i quit WoW.
Im not saying dump 25 man raids, im just saying bring the 40's back, why not let people go the extra step?
Personally ever since TBC came out i just havent enjoyed WoW. I played it for a we while but then left it just isnt the same.
AD May 24th 2009 5:31AM
Sorry, but 40 man was a pain in the backside. 40 man raid is where "acquiring gear with no effort" started. Some guilds have trouble putting a 25man with no PuGs. Even if 40man raids came back, big guilds would still blow through content and still complain about how "easy" it is.
Content where a certain percent can complete it is a waste of money and time by a company that now answers to its stockholders.
Hamstrungeded May 24th 2009 6:24AM
Too many whiny little b*tches playing this game.
Ooh it's too easy! Ooh it's too hard! Nerf this nerf that, buff me buff him!
It got old enough to ignore them the day they were bred.
Seriously people, WHEN IS content just fine for you? Blizzard has given you an entirely new raid instance using hard modes, a first in their history of designing raids, and it's still not good? They've given you the Argent Tournament, vehicular PvP combat in Wintergrasp, Dual Specs, Equipment Manager, easier-than-ever money making activities, achievements in every possible facet of the game, and you STILL complain?
Strong, dedicated guilds, whether casual or raid, will always stick together. If you are quitting the game because YOU feel the content is too easy, then you are selfish. Blizzard will never be able to please everybody so you just live with it. I'm having a hell of a lot of fun raiding Ulduar both 10 and 25man every single week. This is coming from a class leader with a near 100% raid attendance. Players these days are near impossible to please it seems. The ones with the loudest voice of critique are the ones to be ignored most, especially if it addresses PvP. Don't touch my PvE game.
MinatorBearCat May 24th 2009 10:39AM
^^This.
Everyone whines ENTIRELY too much about a video game. The funny thing is, I read the blogs for those that play other MMOs, where the Devs don't listen (aka, Final Fantasy), and there is a lot less whining.
The WoW community is full of self-centered people who think the game should be written for them. Not every class can be buffed, not every class can be nerfed - Blizzard CANNOT, WILL NOT, please everyone that plays this game. Get over yourself. If WoW isn't hardcore enough for you, or you feel your class sucks in PvP, or you hate DKs, or if you are just bored - stop paying your money and play something else. There are plenty of other things to do other than post on message boards complaining about something that Blizzard says they won't change.
To those of you who say "I don't wanna quit - I'd rather stay and complain!!!", I wish you all miserable lives - because that's what you'll get if you think everyone - including Blizzard - should cater your every wish and whim.
MindMage May 24th 2009 9:18AM
There are guilds, and then there are guilds. If there is no strong purpose to the guild, it will fall apart at the slightest discontent. Others will go on regardless. My guild, for example, has suffered two splits, even more leadership changes. Still going strong, still numbered in hundreds, still raiding.
kaezel May 24th 2009 12:02PM
I looked a a lot of the "uber" guilds website's and all of them are recruiting it seems. -which means they're either growing larger..or everyone quit playing wow. i guess maybe a bit of both, but i don't think it's the end of big guilds.
Lifefire May 24th 2009 4:09PM
In response to Artificial,
Really, the problem isn't with those who wish to go through easy content. Back in the old system they had a place to do just that. In the old model content was divided up into easy, medium and hard areas. When new content was introduced it became the new hard, and the medium and easy content got moved up through nerfs of that content.
example:
Kara, Gruul's Lair - Easy
SSC, TK - Medium
Hyjal, BT - hard
When the Sunwell was reached it changed to:
Kara, Gruul's Lair, SSC, TK - Easy
Hyjal, BT - Medium
Sunwell - Hard
This was done by nerfing several boss fights and removing the attunements on the instances.
Those who wanted easy content, had access to it. Eventually, you would be able to see all of the new content. Some may argue that once wotlk came out the guilds doing medium and easy would not be able to see sunwell. This is incorrect. at 80 you are free to go back and see the old content in an easier setting.
My problem is that now with the new content, there is no longer a place for people like me.
Oldmaveric May 24th 2009 6:30PM
I know a lot of people don't have the time, or the people to do 25s, but at the same time people miss the days of looking up to guilds that were really good. These days, there are no visual differences that split the really good people apart from the less skilled besides achievements. (If you don't have time to do 25s I'm not talking about you being a bad player, you just don’t have the time.) With the introduction of 10 man raids a lot of the larger (25 man) guilds are falling apart because there is no point in playing for some people if they can't look and feel like they are the best in game. Some of you may call us elitists but that’s what makes the game fun for us. Unfortunately our generation has grown up around cheat codes and is use to having everything handed to them. Whatever happened to the joy of completing something hard with 25 people? The reason I play and raid is the fun of watching the guild I'm in evolve and take shape to each boss fight just like a synchronized dance... to me watching 25 different people from all over the world come together and move as one is really fun. Unfortunately a lot of people only care about gear and gold over their own guild and quit after the gear isn’t unique anymore and when they don’t feel special.
deepmaur May 25th 2009 9:05AM
As a member of a casual raiding guild Burning Steppes, EU (approx 30-40 members, many many alts), we decided to approach WOTLK raiding in a slightly different manner to in TBC. We we very studious about Kara and then ZA (we pugged 25s but never really had the numbers to raid 25s regularly ourselves), but this time, we decided to go into Naxx and everything else in Wrath "blind". i.e. our preparation consisted of gearing our chars and turning up to the raids with a focused mindset. No tactics etc. were watched , heard, read before hand. A few weeks later and we had cleared Naxx 10, and eventually OS and Maly fell, too. We are currently stepping up to Kalagorn in Ulduar10 and showing how a tight-knit group of friends can work out fights and coordinate tactics extremely effectively. Anyone looking to extend the life of WoW and to instill some more fun into raids should definitely try this approach to any new content :)
p.s. not trying to big-up us or preach the "truth", just wanted to give one example of how to extend a game's shelf-life at the same time as enquiring about any other guilds that might have done the same as us.
Sarabande May 25th 2009 10:46AM
I wouldn't mind having some special and very difficult challenges to keep the Hardcore people happy (who enjoy the feeling of accomplishments and the material rewards that come with it) I don't think they should be neglected as they are probably some of WoW's biggest fans. Maybe add more extra content that's unlockable? (Like the last boss you open up when you finish Ulduar on hard mode, but MORE like it). I don't really raid but SOME content should be saved for the most competitive players. It'll keep them from getting bored. Even if the learning curve is really steep, they'll probably thrive on it.
But overall, I hope that the new direction will focus more on having fun in the game. One thing that's good about more accessible content is that people have more of a choice of WHO they can hang out with (they have more guilds to choose from, and don't have to feel like they have to be in a job or military like guild to get anywhere). I've also known several people who quit not from lack of challenges but from "guild drama / politics" and also from burnout. Also, if they want to get together a ten man with just friends in various guilds, they can.
I know that some people view the game very seriously and competitively, and if they have the time, drive and the patience to put up with people they may dislike on a daily basis, just to accomplish something, that's fine (I guess that also happens in other hobbies, like community sports teams or non-professional theater groups, for example). But I think a large number of people get sick of it after awhile, even if they start out liking the challenges. Of course large, serious raiding guilds CAN be full of the nicest people, BUT that's not how they recruit . . . it's about skill, gear and spec. They'll take the big jerk with high I-level gear and fast reflexes over someone pleasant to hang out with, who is competent but nothing special as a player (skill that is). And because they are excellent players, some of them think it's OK to treat people with disrespect - and apparently, that's just fine with quite a few guilds. As long as everyone gets progression or gear, they figure, no one should complain about it.
So, hopefully, in the new model, people will have more choices, to go with friends or at least a group of pleasant people, and leave behind the screaming, cursing raid leader or the taunting guildies who thinks gearing up is more important than learning how to be civil. The more people HAVE to put up with such behavior, the more it will flourish. Here is hoping that the choices people now have will allow them to NOT have to put up with it anymore.
(P.S., I've never been in a guild like that, but I DO really know several people who were very negatively affected by such things).