Ghostcrawler on the future of 5-mans
by Daniel Whitcomb 
May 25th 2009 at 8:00PM
Snowyfox of the US Vek'nilash server recently brought up a point on the forums which is near and dear to my heart: 5-mans really feel like they've lost their heart. In both Vanilla WoW and Burning Crusade, you could usually count on having the motivation and reward for running a 5 man no matter what your level. In Vanilla WoW, you might do a tribute run for potions and buffs or a Stratholme run for Abomination stitchings for an enchant. In BC, you'd run for badges. In Wrath of the Lich King... not so much. Badges don't stretch so far since most of the good stuff requires badges only obtained in raid dungeons, and even the daily quests aren't even close to as lucrative as just heading up to the Argent Tournament or over to the Sons of Hodir and doing some dailies.Yet 5-mans, in many ways, are the heart of the game. They're where you cut your teeth on group mechanics and really learning your class. While there are many PuG horror stories, they can also be a place to meet new friends and prospective guild members. They're a nice way to get together and do something with friends in game that's a little less intensive than raiding but can be done with everyone on the same page more easily than trying to synchronize quests. I know I have quite a few great memories of doing 5-man dungeons with friends, myself.
The nice thing is, Ghostcrawler chimed in to say that things may have not fallen completely on deaf ears. They did stuff like making end-game raiding more accessible and segregating badge rewards so that raiders wouldn't feel like they were obligated to run 5-mans, he says, but in the process they may have made 5-mans too easy to graduate from, and thus they may want to strike a balance in the future.
I'd love to see 5-man progression more open-ended and rewarding in the future. Being able to work toward more badge gear and even cool cosmetic rewards like the Argent Tournament mounts and pets would be amazing, as would a wider variety of daily quests with interesting storylines (Something beyond kill me the boss and bring me this drop) and solid rewards that make them more enticing than the soloable dailies. Since it seems Blizzard has this idea in their heads, perhaps we'll see the first fruits of it in patch 3.2. I'd love to see more interesting daily quests or rewards come out of the 5-man Argent Coliseum and even out of other older dungeons that would inspire me to log on and run them again.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Virtual selves, Instances
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 6)
Alanid May 25th 2009 8:09PM
Man, i loved running strat pre-TBC, was my favorite instance, if they could do something to make that more playable than just grinding rivendare for his ride I would jump on that train with no regrets.
outlier May 25th 2009 9:23PM
Here is a rather elegant solution, Hard modes of bosses in heroics. Every boss's achievement (the ones that have them) become their hard mode and by doing it, you have a CHANCE at better gear.
Elorah May 26th 2009 10:34AM
I had the same thought as outlier. Optional hard modes for heroics can keep them relevant. A lot of the mechanics and framework are already in the game with the 5-man Heroic Achievements; all that would need doing is changing the loot (and maybe badge type) for the hard modes.
Eisengel May 26th 2009 5:34PM
@gilgalad3171
I agree with your sentiment, however I've been on the opposite side. I'm not sure if you've ever heard of the 'pig in a python' description of population interest. Basically it is that most people will cluster around some level of progression, and will steadily move together down the progression path, like if a python swallowed a pig, you could see the huge lump of the pig as it traveled down the python.
The problem is... let's say you have an unpopular class, or you play at off hours, or you got into BC a little late, then most people are on to the next stage of the progression chain, and you're stuck in LFG for hours trying to get a rep run for a dungeon that no one wants to hit. Since there are attunement requirements, it isn't like you can PuG with a group on a different level that is missing one person, you're out of luck until you find a group that needs the attunements as well.
Blizz kind of fixed this by easing the rep requirements, then lifting some attuements, all attunements, and even made kara keying group-based as BC went on. I personally like attunements too, but I would like to see something more like an AT version of attunements, where you can do a lot of different things in solo play to raise your rep/grant your attunement.
I also found the attunements somewhat non-sequitor in BC too. It would be like:
NPC: "Oh man, there are all these evil orcs over there in that fortress, I really wish someone would go beat them up."
PC: "I'll go!"
NPC: "Yeeeah... well, thanks anyway but we don't like you enough."
PC: "!?"
NPC: "Oh man, that Arthas guy is really evil, I wish someone would go beat him up"
PC: "I'll go!"
NPC: "Yeeeah... well, thanks anyway, but you haven't beat up these other guys, so we won't let you go"
PC: "!?"
At least kara-keying made good sense... you needed the key parts, and then you needed Medivh to forge them together so that you could get into his castle. No prob there, but "I won't let you help us until you've bonked this list of giant foozles on the head" doesn't make a whole ton of sense to me.
Spoondy May 25th 2009 8:13PM
i just don't see the point of improving 5mans now. it's just too late. =/
should another expansion come out, i seriously hope they don't screw it up by making instances too hard or by forcing us to farm heroics in order to do decent in raids like back in bc. that would seriously blow
qoa May 26th 2009 12:15AM
Says you. I'd love this. It would also curb stomp some of the scrubs that try to be raiding elitists.
Let me explain more. If they can't manage to get through the normal level 90 instances + heroics. They will be in trash gear. They also will have a reputation for not being good. This keeps them out of the far too easy endgame.
tatsumasa May 26th 2009 1:39AM
remember when you had to get the key for kara before you could even go in there? and to do that you had to get honored (at one point revered) with each dungeon's faction to get their heroic key, then complete the hardest dungeon at each of the hubs, then you got the key to kara. while this may seem like a pointless grind, it accomplishes two very important things: by the time you get to kara you should have run enough dungeons that you have a pretty good understanding of your role in a group, and you should also have gear high enough to not make you a drag on the rest of the raid. i'm so tired of people in greens and blues who don't have a single heroic under their belt thinking they are naxx25 ready.
Bloodrise May 26th 2009 3:56AM
Actually... the kara key quests in the dungeons were normal mode quests. You could technically have had your kara key before hitting 70, although unlike naxx10/25, the heroic gear was a lot more necessary...
Veknir May 26th 2009 6:52AM
I think he's referring to the Trials of the Naaru questchain to obtain the key to Tempest Keep: The Eye (btw, anybody know if this is a reference to Queen: The Eye? Or is that just me?)
Bjara May 26th 2009 10:12AM
Veknir, I'd imagine that if it's a reference to anything, it's a reference to "the eye" of a storm, or a tempest.
QQinsider May 26th 2009 10:43AM
You did not have to complete any heroic dungeons to enter Kara, ever. The key quests were all in normal mode, and for two of the fragments you only needed to kill the first boss. The only dungeons you had to complete were Shadow Labs, Hillsbrad, and the Black Morass (not to mention the fact that at the start of TBC you could just walk into somebodys already cleared instance and loot the key fragment - that was later fixed).
The quest chain was not the limiting factor on Kara entry. The difference is, Kara was HARD in greens and blues. The very first boss was a dps check that you would not get past if you weren't properly geared. Compared to Kara at the start of TBC, Naxx10 or even 25 is laughably easy.
gilgalad3171 May 26th 2009 10:48AM
I really miss the days tatsumasa is talking about...I remember grinding Black Morass and Old Hillsbrad so many times on my warrior to get my own Kara key, then to help others in my guild get theirs. Ironically, Caverns of Time is the only BC dungeon faction I'm NOT now revered with, since the prerequisites had become so watered down by the time I started him.
I started playing a week before BC came out, and had no experience with 'vanilla' raids, and didn't get all that far in BC either. But I really liked the idea of attunements and even needing to be revered to do heroics in BC. It made it feel more like I actually achieved something that I worked for. And I felt I knew my class way better than I would have otherwise. Being able to just pop into Naxx or even Ulduar - and a less-accomplished player get carried by a good group - seems to cheapen the experience, in my opinion.
rika13 May 25th 2009 8:13PM
maybe make the badges from a higher tier if you have killed all the bosses of a raid from that tier (25naxx/10 ulduar would make heroics give valorous and 25 ulduar would make heroics give conq)
tanek May 25th 2009 8:40PM
The likely problem with this is that it takes things too far back in the other direction. Why run the raid content if you can get the badges from the 5-person dungeons?
It would likely need to be something off that track. Maybe wearing a faction's tabard in a 5-person Heroic when you are exalted will get you an extra boss drop. Some form of currency you can collect for purchases.
Dennis May 26th 2009 1:07PM
No, not give higher level emblems for running a heroic dungeon. Instead adding a trade-up system to higher level emblems. 3 heroic = 1 valorous emblem, and 3 valorous = 1 conquest emblem. This way someone who prefers to run heroics over raids can eventually get the higher level gear.
Avatar May 25th 2009 8:21PM
Good question, honestly. They did a lot to make the 5-man dungeons good out of the gate (badges plus championing system, which was a great idea). Unfortunately, those are things with limited returns - even with the ability to buy legacy items with badges, there's a limit to how many you need, and eventually you hit exalted with all 4 factions and file the tabards.
It's hard to get a group up to farm H UP for the Red Sword when you can get an axe just as nice from a few dailies. (As a tank who never had any luck with the former, let me emphasize that I'm not COMPLAINING here.)
WoWie Zowie May 25th 2009 8:21PM
i really appreciate current 5 man heroics. they are for beginners and casuals who otherwise wouldn't be able to do well in raids.
i know there's a push to make everything harder and "more rewarding" for everyone, but i'm in a raiding guild for that, and have an alt in a casual guild.
the people in that casual guild run heroics almost exclusively, they can't get past heigan's dance in naxx. and they LOVE 5 mans. they are noobcakes, happy to beat a 5 man every time.
if you beef up the 5 mans too much i'm scared for how they might feel down on their luck. they are good people.
Gleeque May 26th 2009 3:40AM
Well, how charitable of you to lower yourself to the level of a nubcake casual. Rubbing elbows with the little people must give you such a good feeling inside.
WoWie Zowie May 26th 2009 7:05AM
i dont know why youre so cynical about this, you somehow are trying to twist the angle to seem like im bad for liking casual players. stopit. you missed the point of what i said.
Jiyambi May 25th 2009 8:24PM
I totally agree with the author's sentiment. The idea of cool cosmetic awards is great - it gives an incentive to run the 5-mans without making them *necessary*, striking the balance that we need. Plus more fun toys is always good!