From our readers: Guild Retention
by Amanda Dean 
May 27th 2009 at 9:00AM
We get lots of email from our readers trying to find their way though WoW. I'd like to take a moment to answer a question about membership retention. This also builds on a previous response regarding the trials and tribulations of starting a guild.Hi I been reading your posts and listening to the podcast and you recently made a new guild. I have a guild with around 140 members and we do some raiding weekly but every time I log off, it seems that people start arguing, and drama just starts building up. I went away for a couple days and when I come back from my vacation, Alot of people have left the guild. Maybe 10-15 people. Now they are stealing my members and have made a new guild. Do you have tips on member retaining and stuff like that, would be cool if you can do a post on that kind of stuff and how you work that out, thanks
Hello reader,
Thank you for the email. One of the hardest things I've noticed about a guild is dealing with a certain amount of churn. Acceptance is the first step. People leave for all kinds of reasons. There will be those that come and go. The stronger you make your core, the stronger you make your guild.
That being said, there are some things that you can do to help reduce churn:
- Create an environment where people want to be. Encourage members to run dungeons together and get to know each other and their abilities. You'll find that people are more likely to stick it out in a place that feels like home. In my guild I tend to call people by first name, and know just a little bit about them. (Though it's perfectly acceptable when people don't want to share that information.) As an extra bonus this makes it easier to keep track of alts.
- Similarly, be selective in who you invite. There are a lot of guild hoppers out there, so if you invite one, don't be surprised when they take off. Remember that if you invite folks as a group, they will likely leave as a group if one or some of them become disenchanted.
- Make sure that the folks you invite have similar tolerances. A guild can quickly seem hostile when personalities don't mesh. If you know that someone is drama waiting to happen, it's best to avoid inviting them in the first place.
- Be consistent. You said that you're doing some raiding, but do players know when to show up for raids. Use your raid calendar. Let everyone know what your expectations are. If they show up late without a valid reason, PUG out their spot and let them come in if someone drops.
- Make sure you are fair. Anything from dispensing loot to giving praise. Don't play favorites with your friends. Remember all of your members are important to your success. Whatever rules you establish for your guild, enforce them equally among your members.
- Set a good example for your guildies. Don't arrive late for guild events. Be respectful and successful on your own. You don't have to be an expert on every class, but make sure you can prove that you are competent. People will come to you for advice and suggestions, but will likely also do what they see you doing. (Yup, I'm off Polishing the Helm again.)
- Don't give up at the first sign of trouble. Sometimes you will have to rebuild from obstacles. No matter how frustrated and angry you get, try to avoid burning bridges. Remember you're all still on the same server, and will likely run into each other again. Sometimes guildies come back, sometimes they don't- but either way you're better off without hard feelings.
In many ways, running a guild is like running a business. I use many of the same techniques when leading my guild that I do when managing employees. Take a gander at some management books and websites. I'm a firm believer in "The One Minute Manager." Praise for a minute; correct for a minute; praise for a minute; let it go.
The guild leader has a ton of responsibility. It's fine to take a day or a week off, but give your guild members as much notice as you can. Make suggestions for what they should work on while you're gone. I raid when I'm off on business trips (which has included sitting on the hotel room floor to get a decent wireless signal), but don't feel like you have to. A good, strong guild will survive a few days without you.
You'll find that some things get harder, and others get easier. I think of myself more as a benign monarch than a dictator (though some of my guildies seem to disagree.) Once you've gotten through those agonizing, rocky first steps in creating the guild, just hang in there. With the number of guildies you have, it sounds like you may be on the verge of breaking through. If you've got the time and patience raising a guild can be an incredibly rewarding experience.
For love, for honor, for pony,
mandy
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Tips, Guilds, Raiding, How-tos
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
outlier May 27th 2009 9:11AM
Vent chatter has been the make-or-break factor for me. THE WORST THING is being in a guild that spends it's 5 hours raiding talking about bathroom/sexual humor, playing bad music or talking off topic WHEN FIGHTING A BOSS. Luckily, I'm in a guild who is relatively young on it's member's average age and are fun when the situation allows and serious when the situation demands it. If you are on skywall, check em out! Darknessincarnate.com
Cochumala May 27th 2009 11:42AM
Tell Crym I said hi
Netherscourge May 27th 2009 11:49AM
Strengthening your "core" often means screwing over newbies with loot distribution (aka the dreaded DKP system)
Loot drops, goes to the "core" members and the newbies get ticked off or discouraged and just quit.
The best way to keep your guild big is to allow EVERYONE an equal shot at loot. If you favor anyone unfairly, then you're guild will always be small and you'll always be PuGing the open spots.
Christoffer May 27th 2009 11:53AM
Nice plug for your guild.. psh...
hehealme May 27th 2009 12:50PM
I absolutely abhor off-topic discussion during a boss fight. Its like, "Blah blah [obscene sexual reference] blah blah," followed by, "Oh crap! I died to a missile because I was too busy not paying attention and cluttering up Vent with nonsense at the most inappropriate moment; also, my Graphics has Projected Textures turned off because when it was mentioned to the raid I was AFK for half an hour."
Making run on sentences is fun!
Say, "Hi!" to Praystation and Darkstrifex for me!
Daijaga May 27th 2009 9:18AM
Age restriction. While exceptional younger players emerge and prove themselves, our guild core is mostly people of the same age, roughly mid twenties. This isn't necessarily to say older is better, but when your form the same age group (be it 15s or 30s) you have more in common naturally from music to maturity and similar expectations.
SarahTheGnome May 27th 2009 9:25AM
I agree with this. While it is not easy to assess people's maturity, and while I will be the last to claim that underaged people can not be mature, my guild being 18+ really really helps to make everything run smoother. People who have children, jobs, responsibilities, etc, just generally know how to put things into perspective. HOWEVER! The biggest drama queen we have ever had was 52 years old, so you can never be sure.
SarahTheGnome May 27th 2009 9:21AM
I liked this article. Leading a guild is very very tricky, it is all about balance. The point about fair treatment and such is very true. Remember to clearly STATE your rules on your website/forum, it really helps. For example, are an adult guild, and we clearly state that any drama can only be resolved by the officers if we have actual evidence AND if the members have failed to work it out amongst themselves. Well, we have never ever had to intervene.
People leave, that is the hardest part. When I started with the guildleadership thing, I would be so incredibly worried every time someone left 'will they take people with them' 'was it something I did' etc. But the truth is, if people leave because they want more raiding for example, well, fair enough, if you are not a hardcore raiding guild you can not change that for the benefit of one person. People leaving because of drama has luckily never occured, because we have no drama, if that started to happen, then I would really worry. But other factors, I have learn to let go off. You are what you are, you made a guild, that guild has certain rules/priorities, and if people do not fit, you can not make them fit.
But as to the person's problem. The rule thing is a good idea, it sounds a bit heavy, but they are not really rules, more guidelines to have smooth interaction between the different members. I would link you my guild's website, but I like some anonimity. I'll just say that we have absolutely all bases covered. This did not happen from the start, no, it was a learning experience, but as you go along, you will discover what you want your guild to really be about, and you will adjust your guidelines accordingly so that people know what they are getting into. We have 2 officers/guildleaders who manage 150 people with weekly RP events and raids, and we have been thriving for quite a while now. Just be a manager, but don't get too emotionally involved and never picks sides, then you will be fine.
Mike May 27th 2009 9:22AM
Hrm, that story sounds almost identical to my old guild, except we didn't raid. The guild master (GM) was rarely on, many of the officers found new and better prospects, and in the GMs absence we couldn't hire new officers, so some people left and formed their own guild. The story diverse about last week, when I decided that we should merge the two now-dying guilds and bring some life back, but the GM would only allow sucking the new guild back into the old and refused to make any of them officers. Under the original merger plan, officers of both guilds would've been officers of the new guild, and the guild master would be chosen by the officers (during discussion, they, including the GM of the separated guild, chose me as new GM). Although the GM of the original guild had no problem sharing power with me, he didn't want the other GM to have any power (he's become a friend of mine, and I would've placed him and the old GM as co-first officers). So even though every member of both guilds was for the merger, the original guild's GM was not, so I ended up just gquitting and moving to the separated guild, becoming guild master myself.
My advice to GMs dealing with people leaving, and the moral of this story, is this: don't treat your guild like a dictatorship, where you're in charge and people have to listen to you. Listen to what your guildmates want, while still being the voice of final decision. If you're going to be away for a couple weeks, then promote someone you trust to the rank of Guild Master until you return. Make sure that things can be taken care of in your absence, that the raids can still be planned and the loot be able to be distributed just as well as if you were there. Just because you take a vacation, doesn't mean your guild has to.
Clevins May 27th 2009 11:54AM
"If you're going to be away for a couple weeks, then promote someone you trust to the rank of Guild Master until you return."
No. Your guild can deal with not having a GM for a couple of weeks if they know about it and there's no way to actually get the Gm title back if the new GM decides they don't want to give it back.
A guild doesn't need someone with the GM title on all the time, they just need someone to provide direction. That can be an officer or a RL. If no one has officer powers (invite esp) give a RL or a trusted member those powers so people can get alts invited etc. Make sure that activities like raids will happen when you're gone.
If you don't want to play much anymore, THEN pass GM on (same with officers... if they don't play much anymore and it's a consistent change, demote them and promote good members who are on and show interest in the guild.
Finally, to the original question, make sure you have a consistent reason for the guild to even be. You can't be all things to all people, so don't try - don't say you're a leveling guild, a raiding guild and that you PvP... Decide on a focus, let the people who want other things go, make sure the people who are there for the right reason are happy.
Futue May 27th 2009 10:15AM
"...if one or some of them become disenchanted."
hehe i lol'd
hehealme May 27th 2009 12:54PM
I was thinking the same. Epic dust, IMO.
Jason May 27th 2009 10:54AM
You want member rentention don't invite anyone and everyone into your guild. Which is what you did to get 140 members in short time. I personally will never accept random guild invites. Or without some kind of process to evaluate me. Even if it's a simple conversation to see if they even like me or I them.
You get a bunch or immature people, drama queens, ninjas, etc. when inviting anyone.
I don't mean you have to be hardcore about this. I certainly am not. But I wouldn't invite anyone I haven't grouped with. I want to spend alittle bit of time to get to know the person. Evaluate their maturity level. See how their personality will mesh with the guild. How well they play their toon or if they're new to it, how well they learn or how willing they are to learn.
Drow May 27th 2009 11:25AM
After reading comments, and seeing what works for us, I've tweaked some of your suggestions:
- Do be selective. Have a 2-4 weeks probationary period where you test them out. Ranged that can't break 5k on Hodir or Assembly of Iron? Cut them now. But as a bonus to stay, give them DKP so they can use it all right when they become a full member.
- Raid times consistant are good. If people don't show up on time, rep them and keep them on the bottom of the wait list. Give DKP for being early if you have late starts to often. Or/and dock DKP for the late ones that give no notice. Personaly meshes isn't a big issue, your here to raid not have a tea party.
- Being loot fair is EASY. Round 1, bid. Round 2, bid. Winner. 0 drama. If someone didn't win, they just saved up more DKP for next time. No favoritism. And also what we do, if no full member wants it, then the people under probation can now bid.
- Just be the best. If you are the top guild or 2nd top guild of your faction, then people will do whatever it takes to join your guild anyway. Always progress, finish the hard modes, go for Algalon, and after everyone has BiS and DKP saved up, pray to Blizzard they release the next raid patch!
Erogroth May 27th 2009 12:11PM
I think the biggest problem you have is you invite too many people. There is no reason to have 140 people (assuming you are talking about mains here and not mains +alts). For a 25 man guild I wouldn't want to have more then 35-40 people. That way everyone gets a fairly good chance at raiding and loot. With 140 people you either need to run 4 25 mans at a time or leave most of your guild out. I would build from a core group. 10-15 people you know you can rely on. If you can make that 25 people you can rely on that is even better. But with a good core the rest of the guild has people to learn from. If you have some inexperienced players they can learn fights from these core people. Also your core will be the ones who stick it out through thick and thin.
Really what it comes down to is you have too many people. The more people, the more drama. Plain and simple. Cut the group down to a real raiding guild and you will have less problems.
Rob May 27th 2009 12:22PM
Pretty good article. I'm now the GL and co-founder, co-GL of a 100 account guild. We had our ups and downs, from switching to a new server, to explosive growth, to a guild split, to alot of raiders leaving. All of it was foreseeable and natural, and there wasn't much we could do to forstall it. Also, nowadays alot of people are not logging in anymore, and the population as a whole is contracting.
Anyway if you have 100 members and have been around a while, its quite natural for people to come and go. The only thing this affects is raiding progression (by which I mean you can not go on raids with not enough geared people, not that those people are not going to be missed).
During our explosive growth peroid, we had open recruitment with some conditions. The person in the guild (adults only), had to know the person, and to get any sort of access to the guildbank the new recruit had to fill out a web application (which is a maturity test basically).
Once we got to a very large size we stopped doing this and only let officers invite. We still recruit on the forums, and friends are welcome to join, but they have to go through an officer first.
The last thing is make sure as noted, the rules are posted, but more critical is the guild philosophy. For example ours is 'having a good time with friends'; RL comes first, we dont' take raiding seriously, etc. People don't join our guild to expect heavy raiding content (we do naxx 2x a week and a random raid from all available content once a week usually; ie last week we did SSC, this week we are doing flame leviathon). Once people know what they are getting into, it's up to them to fit in or not (with some help from your old guildies and yourself). By all means don't take it personally when people leave unless there was some problem of leadership, ie the leader wasn't on, didn't hold himself to the same values, didn't uphold the guild philosophy.
Seaborn May 27th 2009 12:23PM
IMO, anyone that leaves to form another guild are not people you would want long term anyway. After Wrath came out a small group of us led a guild to the point of having everything on farm except 3D sarth. Towards the end I had a few drama issues and an officer along with a member undermining the leadership telling everyone how easy it was to lead raids and "let's all quit and form a guild". My brother and I decided we were tired of having to lead and 90% of our 40 hour wow weeks was used to put out drama fires and putting together raids. So we left together. Said underminers decided to form that guild they were so determined to form. 90% of my raid team ended up in this "new" raid team.
It took them 2 hours to clear Spider Wing.
The moral of the story is: If people want to leave, let them. The ones that say its easy to lead, they'll find out the truth soon enough. Once you lead a hardcore guild it changes your whole outlook on GM's and officers.
That "new" guild they formed.....lasted 2 weeks.
Drahliana May 27th 2009 12:28PM
Second that comment above. Of those 140 members you had, how many of them did you have frequent contact with? excluding alts and such. If you're going to build a guild that large or larger (and you shoul really ask yourself why) then your'e going to need structure, you're going to need officers to break down and make sense of the managing load. Unless you've got podcast appeal like the Borglike alia est whatever, you're going to wind up with folks who don't get attention and will drift away, taking others with them who may feel similarly.
key is decide what size you can manage, and build a structure that's appropriate. for a guild that size you want to have raid managers and an officer core of 6-12 with an exec of 3 ranked right below you that can act with full or nearly full guild powers. Setting up a guild forum site would be a good idea as well.
If you're not comfortable with building that big an officer corp than it's time to have a heart to heart with your guild members and discuss organisation details. It's going to be a matter of trial and error until you come up with a structure that works for you. What works for one guild very well can be the death of another.
brian May 27th 2009 12:39PM
I'm the GM of a fairly large guild we have around 250 members, with a laid back raiding approach. . We are all across Canada so time zones get in the way as well as real life with kids and such that need to be put to bed before we can start raiding , or maybe different hour job swing shifts means that someone may be able to raid this week but not next ... So that even with that may members we are still just raiding 10 man content. We are currently raiding Ulduar.
I don’t run the guild with any kind of hard control as I feel its everyone’s job to govern themselves to a certain extent, yes I have had to step in now and then and smooth over some rough spots but on the whole we have a great group that looks out for each other and has been that way for more than 3 years now..
I think the key to our success is that rank really doesn’t matter in the guild .. when the occasional trouble dose come up someone of rank can step in if needed .. But for the most part everyone in the guild has a voice and is treated the same.. right from taking some one new into a raid and they get the same chance at a drop as a member that’s been there for 3 years even if it’s their first day in the guild .. we don’t use any kind of raid ranking system for loot and most times we look at who's going to get the biggest upgrade from a drop before we roll on it.
Also we have never advertise our guild is accepting members, people ask to join us threw word of mouth or haveing run with a guild member which I think also helps keep out people that are going to jump soon as they join. We don’t ask how old someone is when letting them join its all about maturity and everyone one that’s new starts on probation for a few weeks with the knowledge that they can be removed if they don’t fit in..general guild rules and guide lines are on our web site and are explained when they join .. If they are drama queens, ninjas, immature etc. you will know fast enough and can remove them with no real damage done to your guild. And yet if they are not and turn out to be good people you are ahead of the game.
Also if your the GM and someone wants to leave and join another guild because they are not happy where they are, or want alittle more hardcore raiding enviroment or something, then wish them well and dont take it personal its a game that everyone playing has the right to be enjoying ..
supersaint May 27th 2009 12:45PM
I run a small casual guild on Eitrigg. I can't tell how many times I've loaned out items from the guild bank to members that I thought were invested in our group, only to have them pop up 10 minutes later to tell me they're leaving to join a group with their friends, or some other lame excuse. It's got me disenchanted with the whole guild process.