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5-27-2009 @ 1:19PM
Both articles make solid points. Another instance of Kenobi's "point of view" argument, in that multiple views are "true."
5-27-2009 @ 1:41PM
I'm already seeing a big mistake in the start of the article. You mention Stormwind not being the largest power within the two main factions. False. It is. Fact. Currently Stormwind holds the largest military of both the Alliance and Horde. You can't compare the dwarves in general to only Stormwind. If so, you may include Theramore and Kul Tiras to humans in general.Duh..
5-27-2009 @ 2:00PM
This article is poorly supported by the actual facts surrounding Varian. Take off those Horde fanboy glasses and actually look at the damn lore and story.
5-27-2009 @ 2:30PM
"Depending on your point of view, Sylvanas was -- or wasn't -- a victim as well. "Whilst the article is in general fairly well written, and brings up a lot of fair points, this one is off the mark. Go and read the new Arthas novel, it is made absolutely explicit that Sylvanas was not only totally aware of the actions of the royal alchemists society, but actively encouraged the development of the new plague. There is no 'point of view' to be had here, only the cold hard facts that Sylvanas was the one responsible for what happened at the wrath gate. Her act of convincing Thrall of her innocence is nothing more than manipulation.
5-27-2009 @ 3:21PM
Yes, the "Arthas" novel does state that Sylvanas approves A plague... but from day 1, that concoction's intent was only as a direct weapon against the Scourge and as kind of "don't make us use this" cold-war-style deterrent/threat against the Forsaken's living enemies, chief of which being the Scarlet Crusade.The fact that Putress and Varimathras went behind the Dark Lady's back in secret and twisted this intended anti-Scourge weapon into one that could destroy all living and undead is no more Sylvanas' fault that blaming a steelworker for creating the bar of steel that someone else turns into the knife that kills your loved ones... it was not something they intended their creation to be used for.
5-27-2009 @ 3:39PM
You know, if the whole Kingdom of Lordaeron was still around we wouldn't have these kinds of issues.. for crying out loud, some cast Resurrection on Terenas and put Arthas in his place!! XD
5-27-2009 @ 5:20PM
Ummm, Amatrine, you obviously didn't pay much attention to the Arthas novel. Sylvanas knew completely that the new plague could kill the living just as it could kill undead. She knew this, and encouraged it because she has some sort of misguided vendetta against the living. She simply manipulated Thrall in order to cover her own ass and get Varien to target him instead of her. On top of that, to the author of this article; you say it is not a defense of the horde, but really it is, and not a very good one at that. To be plain and simple: Thrall is incompetent. His greatest weakness is putting too much trust to those who don't deserve it. Right from the start, he should have noticed that Sylvanas and the Forsaken needed a little observation (if a nation of undead with vengeance on its mind tried to ally with you, would you spot-on trust them?). Plus, what you fail to notice is that the Horde is the instigator. At the Dalaran summons, though Varien did draw his weapon first, it was Garrosh who gave the first insult, then HE attacked Varien. The orcs have long has this attitude (and Thrall is definitely no exception) that they are entitled to a homeland on Azeroth WHEN THEY ARE THE INVADERS! And nobody give me that "They were manipulated" BS and look at the facts: many orcs realized that something was wrong when Ner'zhul said that the ancestors told them to kill the draenei (an event that got the whole snowball rolling) but they did anyway. Some, like Saurfang, are genuinely regretful of that mass genocide and are trying to make peace. I have to say I agree with the guy who wrote the first article in that Saurfang is a much better candidate for leadership of the Horde. Perhaps someone who saw the injustice and is genuinely sorry for it may better convince Varien of peace than a spineless political apologist like Thrall or a narrow-minded zealot with an UNJUSTIFIED (Varien's prejudices are justified) sense of bigotry like Garrosh.On another point, you say that Varien has no true power of representation. I am sure that such actions would not be going on if the other members of the Alliance knew about this. However, it seems that they do know because they have voiced no objections to his actions. So here are the points that I have made:1. Sylvanas is perfectly aware and encourages the RAS's actions and manipulated Thrall to get Varien to be angry with him instead of her.2. Thrall is not so much a Warchief than a spineless, incompetent, foolish, and apologetic politician.3. The Horde are the instigators with a sense entitlement to the world they were marooned on.4. Varien obviously does have the right to represent the Alliance because no one else has spoken against him.
5-27-2009 @ 5:24PM
"This article is poorly supported by the actual facts surrounding Varian. Take off those Horde fanboy glasses and actually look at the damn lore and story."Wait, what? You're saying that even though you think it was done poorly, the argument is still supported by ACTUAL facts.It sounds like you have no clue what you're talking about.Also, you might want to make sure your not wearing any glasses yourself.
5-27-2009 @ 5:50PM
Varian is the Alliance's Jack Bauer.
5-27-2009 @ 6:32PM
Sorry, it got posted in the wrong place.Ametrine,Did you read what Sylvanas thought about her new plague? "Yes, the "Arthas" novel does state that Sylvanas approves A plague... but from day 1, that concoction's intent was only as a direct weapon against the Scourge and as kind of "don't make us use this" cold-war-style deterrent/threat against the Forsaken's living enemies, chief of which being the Scarlet Crusade."And I quote. Arthas- pg 202 after seeing her plague unleashed on a Forsaken male and Human female."At last Arthas, you will pay for what you have done. The humans who spawned such as you shall be slaughtered."Unless I'm missing something, Sylvanas, based upon her OWN thoughts, not only wants to wipe out the Scourge, but also all of humanity who "spawned" Arthas as her act of revenge for what he did to her. No mention of weapon of last resort, no mention of the Scarlet Crusade, which Arthas was never a member of, so they couldn't have "spawned" him. She is out for revenge, pure and simple. She won't rest until both the Scourge and Humanity lie dead at her feet. She may or may not have known about the Wrath gate incident, but it's clear that she provided the ammo, Putress and Varimarthas just fired the gun.
5-27-2009 @ 7:58PM
@FerraroGreat comparison, but I hope the writing doesn't get as bad as Season 7. 24 is dead to me now.
5-28-2009 @ 3:23AM
Hey bitter... have any links to sources? i cant remember seeing anywhere that Stormwind has the largest military presence of the alliance factions... There's night elves all over kalimdor, seems like theyre pretty well on top of things. Dwarves everywhere too. Perhaps your making the same mistake you accuse the author of making... maybe youre assuming that every human you see is part of the stormwind military? but thats simply not the case. Sure, you get stormwind rep for doing quests for humans, but that doesnt mean theyre Stormwind humans. The guys in Arathi and Hillsbrad, for example, aren't Stormwind humans... theyre stromgarde humans and lordaeron humans, respectively. Or maybe youre talking about the 7th Legion, seeing as theyre all over the place in northrend... but the thing about them is, theyre Alliance troops, not stormwind's troops... And for comparing "dwarves in general to only Stormwind", well, the thing is, almost all of the dwarves you see in the world that are friendly to the alliance ARE ironforge dwarves, the only real exception being the wildhammers in the hinterlands. Magni does, in fact, have authority over pretty much all the dwarves you meet, unlike varian and humans. The dwarves are a very united people, humans are very much not... thats how the alliance started out, after all, as an alliance of human nations, independant of eachother (as they remain to this day), working together against a common threat.
5-28-2009 @ 11:45AM
What follows is rather long, you've been warned. :pWhile Varian is not the picture of perfect leadership, I find the article flawed. I agree that it was a misstep by Blizz to not properly reintroduce Varian to the game, so people could understand his mindset and his history. That alone could make a world of difference in people's perception of him. The only other individual with enough character to actually lead the alliance is a trapped in a dream atm, so to speak.In any "alliance" of nations there is always one party that rises to that position of leader. Someone has to take the reins, steer the ship, etc. The other members could certainly overrule that leader as he is unofficial, but oftentimes that person rises to that position because they have the willpower to carry it and because, stated aloud or not, they do in fact represent the deeper goals/desires of the collective... This ties into the issue of Stormwind's sovereignty over the rest of humanity. The nation-states of Stormgarde and Lordaeron are mentioned in the article. The problem here of course is that both no longer exist. Kul Tiris does not factor into the game right now, and is small and intentionally self-isolated. Theramore is in Kalimdor, and is smaller even than Kul Tiris, it's an outpost more than anything. Stormwind is humanity's beacon, and it's the only one they have left. The article states that "if Varian has more power than the House of Nobles, he's simply incompetent, is indirectly responsible for the existence of the Defias, and has no business representing the Alliance as a whole. Or else he has less power than the House of Nobles (and) he's more a figurehead than an actual statesman and lacks the power to make decisions on behalf of the Stormwind kingdom, let alone the Alliance as a whole." This is flawed, as it insists that the situation remained unchanged between the time of Varian's disappearance and his return. I seem to remember something occurring regarding the broodmother of the black dragonflight during that time... Aside from which, the article also assumes that Varian returned unchanged, that perhaps his captivity did not harden, strengthen, or grow him in some fashion. The issue of reclaiming his kingship isn't even worth the time or words the article gives it. Sorry. No self-respecting king with a love for his people would abandon his responsibiltiy as the article suggests. The article also seems to be under the misconception that Varian's hatred of the Horde and love for his people are not in fact the same emotion.As for the question of whether the other races were consulted, I reference the second paragraph of this post. The article talks about the meeting we see in the Ulduar trailer. Which I find odd, as it was Garrosh and his purposefully inflammatory comment who instigated the conflict there. This brings us to Thrall. Why the heck he chose to have Garrosh and not Saurfang accompany him to the meeting, who knows. A great weakness of Thrall's is his weak will and waning influence. He has no control over Garrosh, as the trailer shows. He is also always so afraid of doing the wrong thing, that it locks him into inaction. (i.e. Sylvanas) Sylvanas, btw, knew EXACTLY what the plague did. There is no POV issue here anymore, not after what is revealed in the book.
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