Should rage only come from damage dealt?
by Matthew Rossi 
Jun 3rd 2009 at 9:00AM
Should warriors and druids no longer generate rage from damage taken? Ghostcrawler mentions this as a possibility being considered to change the way warriors and druids tank, one that would eliminate difficulties when rage-using tanks take too little damage/avoid too many attacks and have trouble tanking content that they outgear or are using avoidance heavy gear to tank.- Having warriors only or mostly generate rage from damage done is an intriguing idea that has come up a few times. It would help the problem where better gear leads to rage starvation (at least in lower instances) and where warriors have trouble OT'ing because they aren't getting hit. It might also get warriors to care slightly more about dps stats instead of focusing mostly on survival stats. This would all apply to druids too. This isn't a change we have in the pipe, but it is something we discuss from time to time.
Of course, this would require a real shift in how warrior/druid tanking mechanics worked. It would also have massive effects in PvP: it would essentially break the pattern of design that makes focus firing a warrior in PvP a slightly more risky proposition, since if you don't kill them they'll turn your own damage back on you. (It could also mean that switching to bear as a survival strategy in PvP for druids would become hobbling.) It's a very interesting idea: as a warrior who is currently DPS, I know that rage starvation can be a real issue when you're reliant on damage dealt, any misses or dodged/parried attacks can sink your rotation, so hit and expertise would become even more aggressively important stats for tanks.
There's a lot of issues to consider, but it would make all warriors and all rage based tanks more balanced with each other. No more praying for rage after a dodge streak, no more taking off your pants to run a heroic if you're in raid gear, and more attention paid to parity between DPS and tanking rage use. I'm not sure I want to see so big a change in the game, and I'm certainly hoping they do it right if they do it at all.
Filed under: Druid, Warrior, News items, Instances, Raiding, Forums
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 4)
Zelda89 Jun 3rd 2009 9:06AM
IF they did it, if would completly kill warriors in pvp, unless they do some major rework.
On the other hand, it would fix them in pve, and easy solution....
PeeWee Jun 3rd 2009 10:46AM
And that is another reason Arena should be a separate entity. One side is almost always suffering when something's changed on the other.
Deadly. Off. Topic. Jun 3rd 2009 12:23PM
Hmm. So taking damage which gives rage to warriors (thinking on prot paladins who have to take damage to get healed to get mana) is not good enough?
If they’re thinking for some sick reason they don’t have enough rage, just add in a mechanic that they get rage from heals as well. I would think though that as the system is, a good player will have as much rage as he needs as a paladin would have with her mana.
Luke Jun 3rd 2009 3:01PM
@peewee
im convinced i saw you in a worldofwarcraft forum thread :) something about housing i think...
jyorore Jun 3rd 2009 9:12AM
I wouldn't really like this as a druid tank, at least not yet, not until they fix maul/heroic strike.
As it is I have maul macroed to all my attacks in bearform and heroic strike keybound to my mousewheel on my warrior, and honestly, I don't really want to go back to the days where I had to watch my rage bar to see if I should start using either one of those attacks, but I also hate now that I never even think about them, its just automatic.
With current mechanics it would destroy druid and warrior just-started-combat snap agro, because we wouldn't have any rage to start with our threat attacks, we would just have to auto attack for a little while.
Josin Jun 3rd 2009 9:17AM
I don't understand how it would kill snap aggro. We'd still use Bloodrage and Charge at the start of combat.
Assuming that our damage output was increased accordingly to generate an effective amount of rage, this could be a great concept. As it stands currently, the change would destroy warrior tanks, as their damage output is mediocre at best. (I don't know enough about druid tanks to make any real comment on how it would affect them.)
Interesting, nonetheless. We'll see how it goes. Personally, I'm more interested in how they're planning to "fix" block.
Angus Jun 3rd 2009 9:17AM
I call BS.
I have NEVER seen a tank start with no rage.
If you do, you need to learn to fix it. There should be no excuse for it.
In heroics and often raids there are these fun little lvl 1 critters sitting around. We've put a ban on anyone that isn't using rage from touching them. Those guys are there for you to charge and get a full rage bar from some ridiculous crit. Enrage move right after and you can often charge in with a full bar from the start. Even without the critter you should have enough to start a few moves.
Bod Jun 3rd 2009 10:10AM
is it just me, or does "generate rage when you hit stuff" sound suspiciously like "generate runic power when you use stuff".
It's a retooled DK mechanic, probably means it's quite easy to implement. But that's an aside, i also agree the block changes are more interesting and probably more fundamental.
jyorore Jun 3rd 2009 11:28AM
Thats all fine and dandy for warriors to use bloodrage and charge in, but druid charge costs rage, and there arnt always 3 or 4 handy little critters running around to beat on. What if your chain pulling and bloodrage is on cooldown then? Oops, it would be annoying to have to blow the same cooldowns before every pull, and even more annoying to wait for them before every pull.
This would probably end up being a good change in my opinion, but its not going to be as easy as it sounds, like i said they would have to change heroic strike and maul, and work in a way to give bears and warriors some snap threat, lest it comes back to the days of wait for 2 sunders/lacerates deal.
AyaJulia Jun 3rd 2009 12:24PM
"Thats all fine and dandy for warriors to use bloodrage and charge in, but druid charge costs rage"
I'm just gearing my druid up to tank (and learning how to tank) from being a caster all her life--that is, tree and chicken.
This was my first concern upon hearing this. :\ It's hard enough for me to start a fight, particularly an AoE pack, without enough rage to start swipe-spamming right away. Unless there's a trick I haven't learned yet.... Other than telling the dps to hold their horses. >.>
Angus Jun 3rd 2009 3:03PM
Furor and enrage get you up to 40 rage, 2/5th the bar.
On the first swipe you should crit a couple of times.
You should have a good amount of crit and the talents that use it and your dodge to get rage.
My wife never has rage issues unless there is a slow attacking boss with few chances to dodge or get hit. Even then she way outrages warriors in those instances.
Changing rage to work on outgoing damage and being balanced around it would mean the moment that first swipe connected you should be fine.
As for the chain pulling part, how does this differ from now? I'm mana starved on chain pulls if they hit like wusses. The warrior is rage starved if he wasn't conserving rage to get to the next pull. Most chain pull situations are points where the tanks take little incoming damage anyway. If you are taking a ton of damage, the healers will not be happy with chain pulling. That is, after you wipe from running them OOM and not waiting. That example was pretty much no different from today.
Truth is, if your tanks are chain pulling, you will likely have no issues with rage. You should have enough from the last pull to get the next one, even without critters or blood rage. If your tanks ran out while waiting, it wasn't a chain pull.
Moyanna Jun 3rd 2009 9:18AM
Considering the number of stats tanks already have to gear for (higher than the average dpser/healer) adding having to focus in on dps aswell would just make it insane, not to mention the requirement of stat modification to all tanking gear which in turn would actually boost non rage tanks dps as a side effect which frankly pala and dk tanks do no need right now. Though it would solve some issues in pve, I think overall it would become more of a nerf than a boost and probably make paladin tanks primary choice for overall tanking, which is frankly a senario i don't want to see as they are already too op tanks.
Angus Jun 3rd 2009 9:28AM
How would this help paladins all that much?
Expertise? Yea, I am just about capped naked with a seal on.
Hit? Already have enough in normal tank gear. A bit more might help with spell hit, maybe.
Armor Pen: Over half my damage is Holy and has 100% armor pen. Yea, minor help.
Haste: Don't generate rage on hit, and seal does 5pts after the stack is done on a hit, so it is almost not even different. White damage swings make up less than an eighth of my damage.
AP: Small upgrade to every spell. No where near the bump someone who's damage is over 50% based on his weapon damage.
Crit: Here it helps, but the DoT doesn't crit, and our seal hits do 8 pts on a crit. Not exactly much of a boost. Only hammer and shield moves would enjoy real benefit. This would help warriors a TON more.
Can't comment on DKs much. They do good damage while tanking. If warriors suddenly came in as high, all the better.
If tankadins had a mana return system based on offense instead of Spiritual Attunement I would be fine with getting gimped stats as long as there were a few good ones thrown in.
My biggest concern is that tankadins then become the ONLY tank that has to eat damage to actually tank. Sanctuary doesn't do enough, divine plea doesn't do enough and has too long of a CD when there are phases that you have nothing to hit. Give us an offensive one too, and we will likely not get as much as warriors out of the deal but be happy anyway.
Deadly. Off. Topic. Jun 3rd 2009 1:26PM
*Snorts* Prot pallies are overpowered? Sorry, I was laughing too hard.
Angus Jun 3rd 2009 9:14AM
The problem also comes in the gear and how this would effect other tanks.
Currently a DK is fine with this. RP doesn't care about how often you eat a hit. The changes to plate would make DPS stats more important and that may need tweaking for them.
Tankadins already have some issues with this. In fights where we have long periods of not hitting anybody, Divine plea can drop. Even when it is up, without a bit over 400 DTPS we are mana starved. What happens when the plate starts seeing more DPS stats and we see nothing gained from it? It is essentially a nerf for us since we are still dependent on that damage eaten component due to the horror that is SA. Removing it altogether and changing divine plea (via a talent that doesn't suck) to double the effect and halve the cooldown might be the best solution at that point. That or getting mana when we hit with an attack like JoW but always on. Maybe mana on a block?
As it stands, paladins have so much expertise from talents/glyphs that half we are easily to the soft cap with little help. I am almost hit capped in early ulduar 10 man gear. Now we come to another issue. Warriors like haste, paladins could care less. Not sure about DKs. Armor pen for paladins is a pretty weak stat. In fact all tankadins would think is good would be crit and AP...
The only attempt they made at putting dps stats on tank gear so far has been an horrible failure. Armor pen on pants, really?
If they fixed it so that rage was on damage only it would likely be okay. They could up the value so that DPS warriors aren't rage starved and can actually do the job. Bears would be okay since they are often wearing rogue leather anyway and crit already gave them more rage along with dodges.
Geiss Jun 3rd 2009 10:11AM
Please, are you really saying that we dont have a mana-on-block as tankadins???
Blessing of Sanct ring any bells???
WAKE UP.
VerticalEvent Jun 3rd 2009 10:31AM
Just to comment on the haste comment about DK tanks
Haste has one good property - it lets us use Runic Strike more often, which is a key ability in holding on to threat during boss fights.
Of course, stack too much, and you'll be RP drained the whole fight, while giving the boss an increase in parry hastes.
I talented Imp. Icy Talons, so that's enough haste for me.
Angus Jun 3rd 2009 10:34AM
I'm actually assuming mana from sanctuary in the 400 DTPS number.
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21933#p404163
1600 is needed for full rotation. I was not talking abotu full rotation as you can skip a few here and there as long as DPS is having to deal with other stuff occasionally.
400 is where I found myself running on fumes with nothing lit up for long expanses and I needed to sit on it and just judge and HS. It has happened once or twice in heroics. Luckily by that point I didn't care since my threat was so far above DPS I was fine.
tanek Jun 3rd 2009 9:20AM
Maybe this is oversimplifying matters since I don't know much about rage generation when it comes to dps warriors, but rather than turning PvP on its head for the sake of PvE (I hate it when it happens the other way around, I can't imagine the PvP folk feel much different), shouldn't there be a way to account for things like dodges etc so you are not punished for avoiding damage? Maybe allow them to generate some percentage of rage? Heck, even make it a talent point.
Once you start down the road of making rage tanks worry about dps as well, I have to wonder if that is another step down the road of homogenization of roles. Lots of people, including devs, talk about how they want choices to matter and I agree. I also want my class mechanics to feel different from those of another class. :)
zappo Jun 3rd 2009 10:16AM
So lets say I dodge. How much rage should I get? 10 rage? 40 rage? Big difference depending upon whether I'm dodging a level 3 boar vs a level 83 boss. As LostOne says later on in this thread, the only real way to fix this problem with tanks taking damage is to calculate rage based on how much damage you WOULD have taken, before everything else is factored in. I'd have to assume that implementing this would be hard for blizzard otherwise they would have done something like this already. This has pretty much happened every expansion now hasn't it? Remember overgeared BC paladins running heroics with no pants?