The ins and outs of the Shroud Loot System
by Mike Schramm 
Jun 11th 2009 at 5:00PM
Both Blessing of Kings and Unbearably HoT have posts up talking about the Shroud Loot System, a looting system designed to serve as an alternative to the standard DKP setups. The main point of SLS is that unlike DKP, it rewards points not just for downing content, but for just attending content, so that the focus is more on attendance and participation rather than progress (which, you'd assume, would eventually come if people are constantly showing up). Instead of kills, points are awarded at the beginning and the end of raids (no matter how much progress is made), and then when an item drops, players can bid points either by "Shrouding," spending half of their DKP (whoever spends the most gets the item), or by bidding a low fixed cost (and then they roll off for the item, with whoever wins paying the low fixed cost). BoK has a great example of how it works: either you spend half your points (if you have the most overall DKP, you're guaranteed to win) or you take your chances against a dice roll.One of the big keys to the system is that there is no real delineation between gear -- if you want the gear, you shroud, or if you wait on the roll, then you have no excuses. The half-points mechanic also keeps people from stockpiling points, because the longer they wait, the more they'll spend. The roll bidding also allows, though, for even players who don't shroud to have a fair chance at picking up a nice item. BoK says the big drawback is complexity (you have to ask first if players will shroud, and then go through point totals for everyone more often than DKP), but DKP is already pretty complex, and a little bit of time up front will save you lots more time on drama later.
It seems like an excellent system, and as HoT also says, you can customize it for your guild as much as you like -- her guild gives points for other things, and puts a minimum on the number of points you can shroud with. Loot drama is way near the top of the list for reasons why guilds fall apart, and having a good solid system like this running is an easy way to help prevent that.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Instances, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Ringo Flinthammer Jun 11th 2009 5:09PM
The Leftovers Raiding Alliance on Silver Hand (which has downed everything in the game but Algalon at this point) has used this for years, and it's a very good system. It encourages coming for progression nights, while also avoiding (for the most part) drama about what an item is rated as being worth.
Dasein Jun 11th 2009 5:18PM
I really don't understand all of the complexity in looting. We use a Bottom-up system with loot council (though our raiders usually know where it's going before we give it away), with I.W.I.N. tokens for attendance 80%+ for the previous month. The attendance is curved against the raider who clocks the most hours (that person is always 100% attendance). The token allows players who put in the time and effort to get preferential treatment for loot, but only once a month. When you use it, you roll against anyone else who used theirs, and winner loses the token. We modified the EPGP tracker to give 2 points every 12 mins (10/hour), and raise the Min GP to the max hours raided so far this month by one person. That way, EPGP mod and EPGPweb.com have accurate %'s of attendance. Seems easy enough to do.
For 3 months we've been going like this, and have had near-zero drama. Our overall guild-wide loot iLvL goes up every week, and we keep killing stuff.
I never understood hoarding points, in-fighting and the selfishness that DKP drags along. I can already see people mad about the shroud system because someone only had to sped 10 points as their half vs someone else who had to spend 1000 for the same item. Maybe it's just us casuals that are weird. I don't think anyone in my group cares who gets loot, we all benefit from it, as the weakest link gets the greatest upgrade.
Mike Schramm Jun 11th 2009 5:29PM
Most of the guilds I've belonged to use no loot systems at all -- if someone wants/can use the item, you roll on it, and problem solved. But not all guilds are so easygoing, and in situations where you need rules, it's better to have rules early on. Systems like this just help that happen.
Divodia Jun 11th 2009 5:18PM
To be fair, only zero-sum DKP systems prevent you from giving points for effort.
In standard merit-based DKP, you can award points for anything, and systems that reward both time spent and progression made are very common.
Jason Jun 11th 2009 5:22PM
My guild uses a slight variation of this system and it works pretty well.
thegreatheed Jun 11th 2009 5:23PM
This is just another name for a complex DKP system.
For example, we award DKP for ontime, and 3 checkpoints, with bonuses for extraordinary effort or goals accomplished. So we reward success, participation, and dedication (we even reward DKP to players who get subbed out of raids due to balancing). We then have bidding rules for main specs, offspecs, and even sidegrade items (for classes without an offspec, for example). Every rule has a reason behind it, and it creates an incredibly fair, organized, non-biased system.
This sounds like just another DKP system to me.
The Claw Jun 11th 2009 5:27PM
Agreed, I don't see a single element of this "Shroud" system which hasn't been a common element of some guilds' DKP systems for years. And of course it suffers all the attendant problems: e.g. no variance in price between items = players passing on minor upgrades in order to maintain their position and wait for major upgrades. Guaranteed.
Osc Jun 11th 2009 5:28PM
Used to reside under a system like this, have nothing good to say about it. Unfortunate drop rates for certain items might force you to spend a whole lot of points on something versus other people who are getting items more often for cheaper prices.
It sounds great in practice, but it just doesn't execute that well IMO. The punishment of how much you lose becomes too harsh due to a mechanic (random drops) that you have no control over.
Mattlistener Jun 12th 2009 11:40AM
No loot system can "solve" the problem of equal-drop-rate items dropping unequally.
If something is weirdly, unpredictably rare for your group, then there will be a high demand for it. The system is *working* if it awards the item to someone who has gone longest without winning something.
Wellandus Jun 11th 2009 5:34PM
It still seems inferior to EP/GP to me. http://code.google.com/p/epgp/
rhorle Jun 11th 2009 5:41PM
Indeed epgp is by far superior and whatever drama it would cause would be their regardless. The shroud system is basically just a dkp bidding system.
EPGP is also great because of epgp lootmaster. Easy to handle loot mod that does rolls, shows person current item in slot, need, greed, pass options. Autopasses gear you can't equip etc. If your guild is looking for a new loot system go for EPGP.
Blake Jun 11th 2009 5:42PM
Yeah, I think EP/GP is still the best system out there as it addresses almost every loot issue that seems to come up.
Ringo Flinthammer Jun 11th 2009 5:46PM
Actually, the Shroud system mentioned in the original post has a mod too -- I went back and read the original article and they raid under the Leftovers umbrella.
Quidamtyra Jun 11th 2009 5:33PM
we used to use a system like this before SLS was created. We'd give dkp based on attendance (on time bonus as well), extra dkp if you were there for the first kill of a boss, normal dkp for boss kills, and a dkp bonus if you stuck out through a whole night of wipes.
Then there was no bidding. out of those who wanted an item, whoever had the most would get the item.
We don't use any form of dkp anymore, we just use loot council, so that we can give priority to who works on their own gear, buys gear with badges, etc. =)
KillerKarl Jun 11th 2009 5:35PM
I like the way my guild uses DKP. Everyone who shows up and stays available for the raid gets the same dkp regardless of whether or not they make it into the actual raid instance.
The only gear that is given out by guild rank is the tier pieces, everything else is up for the highest bid. It is not that much of a deal, we already have tier going for offspecs anyway.
We can horde points to a certain extent, but when a new tier of loot enters the game all of our DKP is reset to 0.
Catrat Jun 11th 2009 5:43PM
Isn't this a different version of EPGP, which i must say epgp is a very good system.
infractus Jun 11th 2009 5:44PM
Suicide Kings ftw.
Noscy Jun 12th 2009 12:12AM
^ This
Suicide Kings is great, our Guild employed this system for WoLK, and it works tremendously well. It is simple, quick, transparent and fair.
We roll 3 different lists for different types of loot (i.e. Tier Badges, Main Spec and Off Spec)
Tom Jun 12th 2009 5:32AM
Also this.
We use Suicide Kings with a single list for all main spec loot.
Suicide or Pass.
If suicides for it, then we do a /roll.
Winner takes it.
That way:
1. You're encouraged to suicide if you want it.
2. No loot goes to waste because there is a no penalty roll system.
3. Nobody can complain about bad luck with rolling because you always have the suicide option available.
Problems solved, it's all handled in 10 seconds, and there is nothing else to track.
Suicide Kings is by far my favourite. Although looking at the list above, it seems everybody is very defensive of their own personal guild system.
Use Suicide Kings If:
You want to avoid the same person getting lucky and winning 5 pieces of loot in a night.
You want to discourage (but not prohibit) people taking minor upgrades over players who could benefit much more.
Tom Jun 12th 2009 5:34AM
*If nobody suicide for it then we do a /roll
Gief edit or delete function please