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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsThe ins and outs of the Shroud Loot System
by Mike Schramm 
Jun 11th 2009 at 5:00PM
Both Blessing of Kings and Unbearably HoT have posts up talking about the Shroud Loot System, a looting system designed to serve as an alternative to the standard DKP setups. The main point of SLS is that unlike DKP, it rewards points not just for downing content, but for just attending content, so that the focus is more on attendance and participation rather than progress (which, you'd assume, would eventually come if people are constantly showing up). Instead of kills, points are awarded at the beginning and the end of raids (no matter how much progress is made), and then when an item drops, players can bid points either by "Shrouding," spending half of their DKP (whoever spends the most gets the item), or by bidding a low fixed cost (and then they roll off for the item, with whoever wins paying the low fixed cost). BoK has a great example of how it works: either you spend half your points (if you have the most overall DKP, you're guaranteed to win) or you take your chances against a dice roll.One of the big keys to the system is that there is no real delineation between gear -- if you want the gear, you shroud, or if you wait on the roll, then you have no excuses. The half-points mechanic also keeps people from stockpiling points, because the longer they wait, the more they'll spend. The roll bidding also allows, though, for even players who don't shroud to have a fair chance at picking up a nice item. BoK says the big drawback is complexity (you have to ask first if players will shroud, and then go through point totals for everyone more often than DKP), but DKP is already pretty complex, and a little bit of time up front will save you lots more time on drama later.
It seems like an excellent system, and as HoT also says, you can customize it for your guild as much as you like -- her guild gives points for other things, and puts a minimum on the number of points you can shroud with. Loot drama is way near the top of the list for reasons why guilds fall apart, and having a good solid system like this running is an easy way to help prevent that.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Instances, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Zasziden Jun 11th 2009 5:46PM
Having gone through guilds using DKP, EP/GP, and a shroud variant, I must say that the Shroud system is the easiest of all of them to handle and mediate. I can understand the usefulness of the other two, but the determination of item values or gaming of the systems will cause the leader (or loot master) no end of grief.
Shroud's virtue of having a single-source of points (being time), awarded at a set rate, indicate who has spent the most time working towards something. And when an item drops that they want, it's easy to determine who has spent the most time working towards the raid without receiving any other item.
Someone mentioned the fault of the RNG producing horrible drops, and this is always a possibility. Sometimes nothing drops that you're interested in. The loot system wouldn't change that any. You take your points and come to the next raid, with a whole week's worth of points to drop on that item when it does drop, and chances are good that if everyone else picked up something last week, their points are lower than yours, so you get that item you wanted. Yay!
It's a simple system, easy for everyone to understand, and easy for bookkeeping, and that's where the charm lies. I've seen DKP systems set up with so many IF/OR situations that it made my eyes bleed. If you've got a set number of raiders, in a tight-knit group, great. Do whatever it is that you want to do. If you're in works of recruitment or doing a multi-guild raiding alliance, shroud can keep everyone sane, and things moving quickly.
Harry Jun 11th 2009 5:51PM
Generally, it seems that on my realm at least (EU-Kul Tiras), almost all raiding guilds have stopped using complex systems like this in Wrath. At least the guilds I've been in have switched to just /rolling for loot by interested people, with generally a pretty good idea of where stuff will end up.
Admittedly most of the guilds I was in were small-ish single raid group guilds with generally a high attendance all around. I suppose it would be different in large guilds without a strictly 'fixed' raid group.
profglitch Jun 11th 2009 5:50PM
ALL DKP systems are for casuals. Casuals shouldn't raid anyway.
If a guild uses DKP they are hurting the guild. Anything other than an informed loot council -EXPLICITLY- hurts the guild, because it adds arbitrary variables to loot awarding when the only consideration should be "where does this item help the guild progress the most?"
Molsan Jun 11th 2009 5:58PM
I agree, but you're assuming that the master looter and raid leaders understand the various nuances of class gear itemization. In some raids, the master looter asks which classes can use Librams, for example.
I agree that you should just ask, "where does this item help the guild progress the most?" and if there isn't a clear answer, then just /roll. Over time, if you're an unlucky roller, the loot council would step in and reward you at some point.
Angus Jun 11th 2009 6:12PM
Acting this way got Enhance shaman mail pieces when they needed leather in TBC.
I actually just bought the badge leather pieces because the loot council kept wanting to give me gear with a ton of MP/5 on it and refused to give me leather unless none of the rogues wanted it and no shards were needed in the g-bank.
Loot council only works if the people running it have played each and every class and spec.
EP/GP works itself out pretty well, actually. The people desperate for gear that need an upgrade tend to get stuff earlier while the people who would get a decent upgrade and know where it is wait. Eventually it all works out.
Ayseth Jun 12th 2009 2:39AM
This is NOT like EPGP. In my opinion, EPGP is a better system.
You get rewarded to attendance and progression, but instead of 'spending' or 'bidding' on items, loot is based off of a ratio (your "PR", which is your EP divdied by your GP).
You EARN EP for being on time, staying 'till the end, downing bosses, etc. And you GAIN GP whenever you win an item. Whoever has the highest PR wins the item. So basically, the winner s is calculated based on attendance and effort divided by how much they've won recently. GP is based off of ilevels. Every week, your EP/GP decays by 7%, rewarding recent effort rather than past effort.
I like it because you don't really 'spend' points (negative DKP anyone?), and you can never have too little DKP to spend; if you're the only one who wants it, you'll win. Plus, it rewards all the right things and makes it easy for people to get gear. On the one hand, people won't be able to win more than 1-2 items before dropping to the bottom of the PR list. But it's also easy to rise again to win more loot.
I've done a number of different loot systems. Straight DKP, suicide kings, karma, rolls, and even loot council. EPGP is by far my favorite and the most fair.
Jeremiel Jun 11th 2009 6:06PM
By far the fairest way still seems to me to be a simple loot council.
- Loot goes to whoever would find it to be the biggest upgrade.
- Regular raiders are given priority over part-time raiders, and trial members.
- Main spec is given priority over off-spec.
- If two or more people have a relatively equal claim to an item, they roll for it.
Easy as.
Never seen a spark of loot drama in my guild, but then perhaps that's just because we are all mature individuals who consider the guild's progress as well as just our own shiny epics. People frequently pass on loot if they've won several drops in one run, or if they think someone else deserves it first.
In my eyes, all these point systems just make more complex and potentially more unfair something that could be so, so simple.
Tweeder Jun 12th 2009 4:59PM
While you think giving it to the person who gets the biggest upgrade would benefit the guild the most... gear rating-wise it would. Not really fair. Example.
Your carrying a guy through Naxx who just hit 80 (yes, it happens all the time). You get to 4 Horseman and tier loot drops. Of course Blue Item > Valorous is a huge upgrade. But what about the guy who has Heroes but has been there the whole time progressing through.
Sure, you can make an exception for tier pieces. But this happens on other loot too that is not tier at all.
Think about it, if you always give it to the guy who needs it the most, your going to be losing alot of loyal raiders who've worked their asses off to get the gear in between blue and valor.
Jeremiel Jun 12th 2009 5:59PM
Perhaps I didn't phrase it well, but the point of a Loot Council decision is that, while those are the rules generally followed to ensure relative fairness, it all comes down to the Raid Leader's decision on what is the best and fairest way to distribute loot.
If you were the Raid Leader in that situation, you could give the epic to the guy in the Heroes' gear, and if your guildies respect you and your decisions, there shouldn't be any backlash, unless there are immature, loot-hungry people crowding the ranks.
In the situation you gave, our Raid Leader would probably conclude:
"It's a huge upgrade for *guy in blue gear*, but you're new, and it's a sizeable upgrade for *guy in Heroes' gear*, who's been needing the upgrade for a while, but who will gain no set bonus use from it, so both of you roll."
If it were my guild in question, I would put money on the guy in Heroes' gear saying: "Nah, I pass for *guy in blue gear* - he needs it more."
I feel that really all you need to avoid loot drama is not some fancy points system, but a team full of mature and unselfish raiders.
Zildo Jun 11th 2009 6:08PM
We use system called Furious Raid which is all driven by an addon. You build up points based on hours in raid. We have 3 pools Armor Points, Non-Armor Points and Non-Raid Points.
AP - Armor
NAP - Cloaks, Rings, Necks, Weapons, Ranged slot etc.
NRP - Offspec
The points for the pools are mutually exclusive so if you spend points on a weapon you do not lose yours points for armor.
When you bid your points go back to 0 and you start accumulating them all over again. Spreads gear distribution out quite nicely and is really pretty simple. Not to mention loot goes relatively fast.
http://www.wowace.com/projects/furious-raid/
Zildo Jun 11th 2009 6:10PM
...forgot to mention..you bid out of the AP and NAP pools before accepting bids for NRP of course :-D
G Jun 11th 2009 6:31PM
This is similar to the Ni Karma system my raid uses. While no loot system is flawless, it is a pretty good one -- easy to manage with the addon, low drama, and gives newcomers a subs a chance at loot while still allowing regulars the opportunity to lock them out for the best and biggest upgrades.
When coupled an informal "don't be a dick, think of the raid" policy, it keeps the raids greater interest in mind, while making players feel rewarded and giving incentives to subs to keep coming back and helping us out.
G Jun 11th 2009 6:32PM
I should add:
The advantage of this system over DKP is that with DKP, you shard a lot of items that might be minor upgrades for people, but are small enough that players aren't willing to give up their DKP for them. A lot of minor upgrades can add up, so while it may be worth it to a player to see a small upgrade sharded in hopes he lands that big upgrade later, it hurts the raid as a whole as far as gearing up.
Ni Karma will let people "save up" for the big stuff, but allow things to be open rolled if no one is interested in spending their Karma points on it, making sure that an upgrade still goes to someone who can use it and is only sharded if literally no one wants it.
Like this shroud system, winners who do spend their Karma have their points halved so that way the system vaguely resembles a ladder system where one person is not winning everything.
Again, it's not perfect: it has a random element that I don't like, but it's pretty much the best I've worked with for any big raid. If the players are not jerks about things and bid with the raid's interest in mind, it's about as effective as a loot council but a million times faster and prevents drama in case you are unlucky enough to get the kind of person to scream about bias.
Antgrog Jun 11th 2009 6:25PM
I agree with everyone suggesting EPGP. EPGP is a good system.
Meethan Jun 11th 2009 7:10PM
We use suicide kings. MUCH better than DKP IMO.
volicio Jun 11th 2009 7:13PM
I've never understood the need for complex loot systems. The guild I'm in uses a great 4 step system for loot distribution.
Main Spec need Roll, if there are no takers than we move on to the next step. Off Spec need Roll, again if there are no takes than one of two things happen, either the DE gets it to shard, or if there is no DE that week for some very odd reason, than the loot is put up for a Greed Roll.
That is about it. You get 1 main spec need roll, and one token need roll per run, unless everyone that can use that item has already done their need rolls, than the system resets. And you get unlimited off spec rolls, but you have to really need it for off spec.
Zamboni Jun 11th 2009 8:38PM
My (old) guild used a similar system, but his disastrous results. We usually had a lot of churn as the night went one, so the one-item round robin meant people who started the night received basic items, and people coming in for the last boss with a clean slate got the top gear by default.
Eventually the only way to have a chance at any of the later items was to pass on the early stuff, so you had to watch as upgrade after upgrade was sharded. People leaving early would just get their one item and bail, and replacements kept coming in with clean slates to repeat the proces. The more time you spent raiding, the less loot you got.
The GMs could never figure out why their top raiders kept leaving - or why the guild is favorite for brand-new 80's with no gear.
Spazmoose Jun 12th 2009 12:07PM
This is not completely unlike the loot system my guild uses when doing a PuG raid (which we do rather regularly for 25s, due to a high number of casual players in the guild).
Rules (using Master Loot):
1. Main spec [Limited] - limited to one item per person, until all rollers have won something (i.e. Tank gear drops, all tanks that have not won something can roll).
1A. Main spec [Open] - available rollers do not want, so make it available to all rollers again (i.e. Tank gear drops, but all tanks that have not rolled already cannot use it, so it gets opened up to tanks that can use it).
2. Off spec [Open] - because off-spec does not generally affect the raid as a whole, the roll is open to all people that can use for off spec (this includes letting druid/shaman healers roll on cloth healing gear if they want).
3. Roll for Shard [Enchanters only] - our guild recognizes that enchanters have a more difficult time farming for materials (than say a miner/herbalist), so if the roll goes to shard, the roll is only open for enchanters in the group.
4. Roll to Sell [Open] - There are no enchanters in the group, so an open roll is held for selling the item.
This is much different than the loot system used in our guild only (mainly 10-man) runs, where we use an informal Loot Council type of system, where we each determine whether it is an upgrade, and then toss a roll out for it, usually taking turns based on who won the last item (i.e. if one tank won an item already, the other receives the next item, if it is an upgrade (if there are two tanks)).
I have found that our informal Loot Council tends to work nicely for our group, as we have all been running together for quite some time (early Kara). Needless to say, we have had some loot drama, but it was easily resolved between the members.
volicio Jun 12th 2009 12:14PM
True, I guess. We get around this by setting it up so, if you weren't there for the begin of a raid, 9 times out of 10 you wont be able to get in later in the raid. But I guess looking at it from the perspective of very large guilds I could see your point.
Falcom Jun 11th 2009 7:47PM
the people i run with...well they aren't dicks. We divide up loot as we all agree is fair, we have a very diverse 10-man group, so there aren't 5 DK's fighting over DPS plate drops. I will never run with a DKP or similar system. All it means is that the people you play with a childish and can't resolve simple things like loot as an adult. It really can be that simple.