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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsThe ins and outs of the Shroud Loot System
by Mike Schramm 
Jun 11th 2009 at 5:00PM
Both Blessing of Kings and Unbearably HoT have posts up talking about the Shroud Loot System, a looting system designed to serve as an alternative to the standard DKP setups. The main point of SLS is that unlike DKP, it rewards points not just for downing content, but for just attending content, so that the focus is more on attendance and participation rather than progress (which, you'd assume, would eventually come if people are constantly showing up). Instead of kills, points are awarded at the beginning and the end of raids (no matter how much progress is made), and then when an item drops, players can bid points either by "Shrouding," spending half of their DKP (whoever spends the most gets the item), or by bidding a low fixed cost (and then they roll off for the item, with whoever wins paying the low fixed cost). BoK has a great example of how it works: either you spend half your points (if you have the most overall DKP, you're guaranteed to win) or you take your chances against a dice roll.One of the big keys to the system is that there is no real delineation between gear -- if you want the gear, you shroud, or if you wait on the roll, then you have no excuses. The half-points mechanic also keeps people from stockpiling points, because the longer they wait, the more they'll spend. The roll bidding also allows, though, for even players who don't shroud to have a fair chance at picking up a nice item. BoK says the big drawback is complexity (you have to ask first if players will shroud, and then go through point totals for everyone more often than DKP), but DKP is already pretty complex, and a little bit of time up front will save you lots more time on drama later.
It seems like an excellent system, and as HoT also says, you can customize it for your guild as much as you like -- her guild gives points for other things, and puts a minimum on the number of points you can shroud with. Loot drama is way near the top of the list for reasons why guilds fall apart, and having a good solid system like this running is an easy way to help prevent that.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Instances, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 3)
Amaxe Jun 11th 2009 7:50PM
Our system is everyone is allowed per day of a raid:
1 need roll
1 tier roll
1 rick roll
Everything else is a greed roll.
swampsquatch Jun 12th 2009 1:27PM
This system actually sounds good, except saying you get 1 tier roll, and then you lose the roll. The you use your need roll and lose the need roll. The you get rick rolled and that sounds like good fun. But you really have no incentive to finish the raid after that lol. You lost your chances for loot.
So if you elaborated more that would be cool.
Amaxe Jun 13th 2009 4:06PM
Don't know why my previous didn't post, so here it goes again:
What I didn't mention but should have was that I meant you get one *Successful* need roll and one *Successful* tier roll per night (the "rick roll" was a running joke for our guild). If you lose the roll, you don't lose your chance to get a need roll or a tier roll.
You can win unlimited greed rolls of course, but we are on master looter. Need and Tier rolls are /roll 100. Greed rolls are /roll 1000 so we can tell who did what. Any need roll/tier roll *always* takes precedence over a greed roll.
In essence you are gambling with your rolls. Do you use your need roll? or do you take a chance on Greeding and hoping nobody else takes need.
Now maybe this wouldn't work with large guilds with hundreds of members. It does work for us when we run with a small guild and friends (our guild was formed out of Kara pugs with regulars we grew to trust). We're just starting to farm Naxx 25 and only a few have done Ulduar yet to learn for our guild when we get to that level.
Of course we reward the regulars with first choice in geting a slot if we have >25 people wanting in.
Need Greed and ML Jun 11th 2009 8:25PM
And when will we see Wowinsider posting about the loot systems that give no discrimination between hardcore raiders and casuals?
I've seen no mention of the "Per Slot Lockout" that helps even the field and prevents one person from upgrading the same piece more than once in the same lockout period.
Granted, this conplex DKP systems seem to work for all those hardcore raiders. Obviously this is not the same case for the casual raider and has been a major cause of concern leading to low raid attendance and soem people flatout leaving a guild because the chance to upgrade items becomes too much of a rat-race.
pfoooti Jun 11th 2009 8:29PM
We use SLS in Alkahest on Steamwheedle Cartel. It sounds like we do it a little differently - we award a readiness bonus (on time, flasks & food), a per-hour rate, and a per-bosskil rate.
I like it a lot - it rewards active engagement with the guild like any other points-based system, but it prevents people from stockpiling points and using them to blow through lots of lootings.
If you want to conserve your points, bid 10 and roll against everyone else. If you want to call priority on the item, you shroud. The nice thing is that the cost for consecutive successful shrouds goes up geometrically, while you earn points arithmetically. That more or less means that you don't need to worry about degrading points for people who save them for too long or anything - everything evens out over time.
It's also nice that you don't have to rate pieces of gear with costs - people decide on their own what a piece of loot is worth, and loots have differing values for different people. (like a piece of caster gear with spirit vs mp5 vs crit vs haste).
The only other interesting rule we use is that main-spec bidders automatically have priority over off-spec ones, even if they've got fewer points.
pfoooti Jun 11th 2009 8:35PM
I should add - SLS, in practice, has a lot of the same features as suicide kings and plain old need/greed rolls. It's really simple, but the way the points come into play ends up evening over some of the rough spots of need/greed and skings. I really like it.
Bleucheese Jun 12th 2009 12:34AM
Leftovers on Silver Hand has roughly 700-800 people raiding every week across a huge host of groups, all using the same point system (and the same points pool): Shroud. It's worked beautifully for us, eliminating all the problems we had with our previous DKP system (ever-increasing complexity, points hoarding and huge imbalances). There has been remarkably little drama in the last 3 years since we adopted it. (Not zero, but damn small. I know, I am one of those that receive the complaints when it does happen.)
The simplicity helps, but I believe the #1 thing that reduces drama is that Shroud discourages people from caring much about points. They stop focusing on points for the most part and get back to concentrating on the game.
It also helps that we have a strong culture against rules saying who can and cannot take loot.
rainjadedsouls Jun 12th 2009 1:03AM
SLS works very well if you know the ins and out of it. As being part of the founding guild "Shroud" on Tichondrius, I experienced 1st hand how well it works as we were far from a casual guild. Though there are many systems available through trial and error today, it was was a premiere loot system during it's time. Props to members of Shroud who created this, although we don't exist anymore our fame lives on.
Steikfrit Jun 12th 2009 7:45AM
We don't use such systems with points. We really disklike them.
We have a system where each member has priorities : 1, 2 and 3.
T8 stuff is considered priority 1, and you have the right to 8 priorities 1, 5 priorities 2 and I don't recall how much for priority 3.
For someone whom a loot is what we call an "end game piece" (once in the slot, there's nothing they can currently have except HARD mode which is better) they use priority 1. Otherwise, it's a priority 2. Priority 3 is for "ALT SPEC" stuff mostly.
So each member of the raid has searched what stuff they want, slot by slot.
Determined which are the 8 most important and set those as Prio 1. And so on.
When a loot drops, people with Prio 1 get it first. Because it is better to give a piece that is considered an end-piece to someone rather than give it to another player for which this is just a temporary upgrade until they get the real one they want.
We use this sytem to avoid giving a piece to someone who is not going to keep it as long as someone else, so in the long term we have a bigger upgrade of the Raid.
We have those priorities, and we write down who did loot what, and when.
Then, giving loots is easy for two reasons :
1. you know who needs the most a piece as an upgrade since we know if it's considered an end-game piece for slot or temporary upgrade or alt spec piece.
2. you can EXPLAIN to everyone why you gave the precious loot to someone. Since it's based on LOGIC and guild progression objectives (in other word : the information is PUBLIC and AVAILABLE TO ALL) there are no cries or problems.
We are very happy with our system : players have to search what they need, and know exactly what they want and why. We have a very good idea of how it's going to progress on stuff for the Raid. Everything is logic so people can discuss and calculate when they will probably get the loot. It's based on logic, it's fair and benefits the guild first before the player.
swampsquatch Jun 12th 2009 1:29PM
That sounds like a really cool system. I am glad I read all these comments lol
Genxtrem Jun 12th 2009 8:44AM
Our Giuld uses the standerad loot master Need for main spec/greed for of spec. If its BOE and noone need/Greeds it it get DE'ed and rolled for the shards. Also 99% of our guild is kind enough that if the upgrade is small even on there ain spec they will make sure there are no lower geared pepole in need of that item befor they select roll on it. Finally we also use 2 needs and 2 greeds on any raid other that progression to ensure if there is an add in layer they dont ninja everything.
On progresssion its need main spec greed off spec no limit and our progression group all get along and make sure they need it more.
If your guild can't function with curotisy with the other raiders why would you wanna raid with them?
Adam Jun 12th 2009 8:52AM
Sounds like DKP to me, and DKP is fail imo. I would never be in a guild using it.
In my guild we do attendance-modified rolls based off your previous month's attendance. i.e. if you were there for 70% of the raids in May, you will roll 1-70 in June. New recruits roll 1-15 while trying out and the minimum roll for members is 1-25.
In very rare cases, officers will do loot council but in all of Ulduar I've only seen that used once or twice.
Quinanria Jun 12th 2009 12:31PM
Ah, but Adam - it is rather clear you guys have what, one to three groups of folks raiding at a time? Some raiding alliances have much MUCH more. When you have 40 different raid groups working on level 80 content (both 10 and 25 man) - you have to have a system that flows fairly between these groups. Shroud is excellent at doing that.
One raid group? that has a constant membership? Yeah, random rolling or loot council makes a ton more sense ;) But, every group is different. Leftovers has 41 raid groups that do varied content - Shroud makes it where a raider can move freely between those groups and maintain his attendance/work as he helps different groups.
A guild of 15 guys that do 10 man Naxx every week? Nah, they don't need something this complicated.
Deadly. Off. Topic. Jun 12th 2009 10:48AM
Personally, loot should go to those who attend on that particular raid lock out period. Afterall, EVERYONE helped on that lock out period so it's only fair to reward those who were there for that lock out.
The problem with this simple idea is that most people invest more time and then feel entitled that they are more deserving so they invent these complex loot rules in a way of justifying why they should get stuff over others.
I can understand why this makes sense to them as they would perfer to have those active raiders with the better gear with them on subsquent and future raids/runs.... in the end those casual raiders get screwed from ever acquiring good gear because they don't attend as much as someone else who lives in his momma's basement.
Quinanria Jun 12th 2009 12:36PM
Actually, as a member of an organization that has used Shroud for many years now, we find that isn't the case at all. Casual raiders tend to acquire loot at about the same rate as the constant raider. It all depends on how you see the "points."
The problem most folks have is they view Shroud's point system as a Point = Currency system. That isn't it. Shroud is a "Place in line" system much like Suicide Kings. However, anyone has the ability to "step out of line" - and say "Hey, half my points for that!" If nobody else steps out - its his. If more than one person does, the highest points gets it. For those folks that don't want to step outta line? They can still say "I want it" - they just have to compete with every other person that wants it as well on a random roll - points acquired mean nothing then.
The people we see with large point values are folks that are running content where they have nothing to gain any longer - a raid lead that does Naxx every weekend on his tank, even though he has all the gear he needs. But, when he walks in Ulduar the first time - he shrouds two or three times, and he's no longer sitting on a ton of points ;) The system self balances very well.
YuriPup Jun 12th 2009 7:09PM
I am raid leader for Leftovers on Silver Hand and been raiding since EQ in '99.
Shroud is the best system I have come across and works with our unique structure very well. When you have 100+ raids a week, 700+ raiders and lots of potential churn, a simple, robust system is best--and I am a huge fan.
The one little change we have made to Shroud is adding a save level--same points as a standard roll but lower priority. So that a raider at 0 points can still show they are interested in that tier piece over the experience raider who's building an off-off set. (LO loot problems were more likely to be of the "No you take" kind, and save helps that a lot.)
The other bit that wasn't mentioned, at least about our implementation of Shroud is there is no going negative. If you are at 0 points you can't shroud, but you can standard.
And no points are earned until the end of the raid. New raiders can get loot their first raid (Welcome to LO, here are your free loots) but they can't shroud.
Charlie Jun 12th 2009 9:08PM
We use a random /roll with a raider rank system.
Raiders > Members > Recruits.
You get promoted to Raider by attendance & performance.
Works pretty well for us.
jjenkins123 Jul 26th 2009 2:52AM
There are plenty of members from Leftovers who are happy with the Shroud system. As a former member and charter lead I would like to point out a few cons with this loot system.
The ability to earn and use raid points with different groups is an attraction to many raiders with Leftovers. However this system encourages guild hopping, raider poaching, self-fish loot bidding, discourages team building and neutralizes any in-guild leadership.
Most of us would agree that having consistent members who attend regularly is key to having a successful group. The Shroud system is a disadvatage for "regulars" and "hard core" members. A new member can easily join and start shrouding the moment they are eligible, thus keeping their point total low. From my experience, once a player realizes he is no longer in position to win loot they will move on.
There is no perfect loot system. The Shroud system can work for a guild, but the system expects players to 'bid' honestly in order for it to work. The complexity and the social expectations that come with using this system will cause a group to go through plenty of raiders.