Officers' Quarters: Normal raiders are people, too

Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.
"Normal" mode sounds so dull, doesn't it? Who would want to be "Normal" when you can be "Heroic" -- particularly when being Heroic garners better loot and, for healers specifically, a chance at the ultimate healing mace, Val'anyr. Most guilds on my server prefer the larger raids, and who can blame them? Normal mode is often seen as a fun distraction. Something for raiders to pass the time with, or gear up their alts in, when their guild isn't tackling the "real" version of the instance.
Sometimes Normal mode is easier. There's no question that fights like Vezax are much less complicated when you're only dealing with 10 players. It's certainly nice not having to worry about switching tanks on Kologarn or interrupting Auriaya's Sentinel Blast. But sometimes Normal is not easier. The margin of error is a lot thinner when one death means you've lost half your tanks, a half or a third of your healers, or 15-20% of your DPS. And it could be that your raid doesn't have a single battle rez, let alone three or four. Maybe that's why players prefer Heroic raids: Unless you're going after the more difficult hard-mode encounters, it's not the end of the world when you screw up and die.
This week, one guild leader asks, when most serious raiders only want to run Heroic raids, how can someone recruit for a Normal raiding guild?
Hi Scott,
I'm the GM of a reasonably-successful 10-man raiding guild (we're ranked in the top 90 US guilds according to GuildOx's "Strict 10-man" filter). Like many other guilds, we're seeing a decline in attendance lately (as per your most recent column, "Surviving summer"), and it's become obvious that we need to recruit 4-5 more people of various classes/specs so we can reliably run our scheduled raids without depending on 100% perfect attendance from anyone.
Unfortunately, it's been incredibly difficult to find potential recruits. Most of the people posting on the official Guild Recruitment forum are looking to run 25-man raids. Is there a perception that 25-mans are for "serious" raiders and 10-mans are for "casuals"? We're not a casual guild nor are we bad players, we just prefer the more close-knit sense of camaraderie that comes with a smaller group. The type of players we want to recruit -- experienced raiders who are dedicated min-maxers and really want to push difficult content -- seem to gravitate towards 25-man guilds. Surely we can't be the only progression-oriented raiders who prefer 10s to 25s, right? How can we find potential recruits who feel the same way?
Cheers,
Abima
GM of <Business Time>, Moonrunner-US
Abima, I feel your pain. My guild is in a similar situation. We run Heroic raids with other guilds from time to time, but we focus mainly on trying to be the best Normal-mode guild on the server. It puts us in a difficult place. If one thing is true about dedicated Normal raiding guilds, it's that we're a niche market. You definitely have to temper your expectations for the number of quality applications you're going to get.
Here's the good news. Heroic raiding guilds are a dime a dozen. Some are more successful than others. Some are absolutely excellent: They mastered Ulduar in a few weeks and began working on hard modes shortly thereafter. But many others struggle along, barely able to keep their roster intact, sometimes filling in the gaps with PUG players. They get boss kills, and they get loot, but they rarely go after hard modes or achievements. Their players don't interact much outside of raids. If they ever stalled out on raiding for a week or two and the loot dried up, the entire guild would collapse.
For some raiders, that's not enough. Those are the raiders you have to appeal to. You have to emphasize two things: the family-like atmosphere and the push for achievements and hard modes.
The first emphasis is an easy sell. Clearly you value the closeness of your community or you wouldn't be a Normal-mode raiding guild at all. But you still need to make it clear what that means in your recruiting pitch. What do you do differently than a typical Heroic raiding guild? Do you hold special events that have nothing to do with raids? Do you allow your raiders more input in determining the direction of the guild? Tell people about these differences.
The second emphasis is something you can't just talk about. You have to prove it. The biggest problem with serious Normal raiding is getting people to take you seriously.
Looking over your armory, I like that you've gone after some of the wackier achievements, like Not-So-Friendly Fire and Dwarfageddon. You've also managed some impressive ones from Tier 7 raids like And They Would All Go Down Together and A Poke in the Eye.
However, so far the only hard modes you've defeated are Sartharion with one drake and Flame Leviathan with one tower. Now, if you can do those, I guarantee that you can do them with two drakes and two or even three towers. You can also do Freya with one Elder. Try them out! Those achievements can be part of your normal clears without taking up a large portion of extra time, and they convey a message that you're serious about hard modes and about excelling in general.
For now, though, you should probably focus on getting Yogg down before you get too deep into hard modes. Having cleared all Normal raid content without the help of Heroic Ulduar loot will be a feather in your cap. The nerfs this past week should help you with that. Skip some of the earlier bosses for a couple of weeks so you can push right for Yogg.
I don't want to turn this column into armory bashing, so I'll stop there. I'm not trying to pick apart your accomplishments here -- I'm just trying to help you prioritize. Your guild has a lot to be proud of so far!
The bottom line, for any serious Normal raiding guild, is you have to take advantage of getting all your best people in a raid when you have them. Take an extra 20 or 30 minutes to get a hard mode achievement like Knock on Wood when the opportunity presents itself. Then tout these achievements when you recruit. No, it's not the same as defeating the full hard mode would be, but it's an indication that you're heading in that direction.
That will signal to other like-minded players that you aren't just a bunch of lazy slobs for whom putting together 25 players is too much work. That you are, in fact, real raiders in a real raid, and that you do take it seriously -- perhaps more seriously than some Heroic raiding guilds do!
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Ravasha Jun 15th 2009 1:07PM
WHAT?! Raiders are people too?!
Dalrint Jun 15th 2009 1:15PM
Only normal raiders.
Averna Jun 15th 2009 1:16PM
After 5 nights of 25 mans and 2 nights of 10 mans each week, I'm coming to the conclusion that Raiders = Robots.
Ezlo Jun 15th 2009 1:51PM
Yikes, raiding every day of the week? Get the hell out of there if you value your sanity, if you want my opinion that is.
Wyred Jun 15th 2009 7:08PM
Whoa. The No1 horde side guild on my server (battling it out with No1 ally side for acv progression) doesn't raid that much. They raid 5 nights a week and demand 90% attendance, meaning you won't be raiding 2 nights and sometimes 3 nights out of a week. That to me is pretty damn hardcore. No guild can raid 7 nights a week and not have burn-outs. As above, do something, say you're not raiding that much or get out. Something. I love WoW and people say I'm an addict, but whoa.
AyaJulia Jun 15th 2009 1:22PM
The questioner asked:
"Is there a perception that 25-mans are for "serious" raiders and 10-mans are for 'casuals'?"
You responded, indirectly:
"That will signal to other like-minded players that you aren't just a bunch of lazy slobs for whom putting together 25 players is too much work."
Is that REALLY why you think people prefer 25-mans? Sigh.
The drops are better. End of story. Seriously. 80% or so of the people who prefer 25-mans do it for the better gear, whether it's their only reason or not. Maybe they do it for the added challenge, or because they love all of the people they run with... but somewhere in there, if you ask them why they prefer 25s to 10s, "the drops are better" will usually be in there. For me, it's second behind "more challenging." We aren't afraid that people will see us and think we're retarded (at least, not most of us).
AyaJulia Jun 15th 2009 1:49PM
A follow-up note....
I'm not saying this is why EVERYONE should play 25-man instead, or why people who play 10 are stupid (i.e. my gear is better than yours, neener neener). I'm just presenting a view from a 25-man raider that doesn't involve calling people with a different preference lazy or stupid.
Honestly, everyone likes different things. Can we not bitch that one or the other is better or more casual or idiocy like that?
Angus Jun 15th 2009 2:04PM
I'm with you about 75%.
The gear not being equal causes people to ignore 10 mans.
The fights are often as hard or harder in 10 man because of the human element.
Personal responsibility is a big thing in 10 man. We had a healer that could not understand the concept of getting between gas drops on Grob in 10 man. She wiped us 5 times before I finally got sick of it and we went somewhere else. In 25 man this same priest killed 4 people doing the same thing. We still beat him. The other healers could handle the slack and the loss of the 3 dps was not something that was going to kill us.
So what did we learn that night? Leave her out the door on fights where she has to listen to directions and 10 mans are more punishing of screw ups that kill multiple people.
I really do think the items being different tiers is too much of an obstacle for people recruiting for normal.
AyaJulia Jun 15th 2009 2:27PM
@Angus
I dunno. Maybe I just run with a better group in 10s than when I do 25s (there's more ability to filter stupid people out when you take a large guild and shave it down to the ten people of your choice). But I've never thought 25s were easier. :)
yunkndatwunk Jun 15th 2009 2:30PM
I agree, the author proves they don't really believe anything they are writing when they trot out that "That will signal to other like-minded players that you aren't just a bunch of lazy slobs for whom putting together 25 players is too much work." Why did that even come up? Because he thinks that way.
I have done 25 and 10, and usually the 25 version is about 10 times easier. Because when people screw up it doesn't matter as much. Not only that but if you are ONLY geared from 10 man, then it makes everything harder. Going into Uld where everyone is in 213 gear is certainly easier than going in where everyone is in 200 gear, even if you're doing 10.
Certainly there are bosses that are harder in 25. But I haven't found that to be the case yet in naxx or the first section of uld. All 25 bosses should be harder, but they are not nearly hard enough to justify the better loot.
I'd much rather do 10 man with a core group of friends, but i find i pretty much have to do the much easier 25s, to get the better loot. i barely have to try. I do of course, but it is frustrating to be able to progress so much quicker while doing things that are so much easier. I feel like I'm cheating or taking a shortcut when I do 25s.
And yes in 10 man we've spent all night wiping and come back for more. one group is not more dedicated than the next. It's just different.
Angus Jun 15th 2009 4:11PM
"I dunno. Maybe I just run with a better group in 10s than when I do 25s (there's more ability to filter stupid people out when you take a large guild and shave it down to the ten people of your choice). But I've never thought 25s were easier."
That actually sorta proves my point. ;)
In 10 mans, we do bring our great raiders and we try to be inclusive and bring our "so-so" raiders too when we can.
In 25 man, those so-so raiders can screw up big time and it isn't a wipe. In 10 mans, it is almost every time.
Which is easier, having a situation where brain-dead Joe wipes you because he likes standing less than 10 yards from a healer in the frost lair or 25 man where the remaining 4-6 healers keep everyone alive and someone b-rezzes the dead healer while we leave Joe dead in 25 man?
Most people would say the 25 man. Our core 10 man group is very good about not standing in void zones, keeping proper distance, using tricks to stay alive and in general not wiping us. People we have gotten from 25 man guilds have forgotten these things or never learned them as well because if they died, well, the boss still went down. Healers could cover for them, and they wouldn't be too much lost DPS.
I do agree with you. When I can pick my raid from the best we have, we can do amazing stuff. Even with some people that are marginal we are good. But sometimes I just need boots on the ground.
Wyred Jun 15th 2009 7:11PM
I think the author was speaking of a general perception among raiders rather than his own. You can of course debate whether this perception does exist, but it doesn't seem to far out.
Kyle Jun 15th 2009 1:27PM
Sounds like a really good guild. I run with a 25 man guild, we're on the top ten of our server, but I had started a guild in BC (my second one after my raiding guild fell apart in early '08 over attendance) to raid 10 mans with friends when LK was released. And I ran into the same problem, that it seemed like either you got players who weren't experienced and only wanted 10 mans to get into 25s, or you had people who just wanted 25 mans. Personally, the small quality difference in loot isn't enough for me to put up with the cons and pros of 25 mans, and I just wanted to raid with my friends.
My point is that there are people like us out there looking for an excellent ten man guild, but it seems it as hard to find a hard-more/achievement progressive 10 man guild as it is to find players who want to run that way.
Stages Jun 15th 2009 1:39PM
I am a serious 10 man raider. I enjoy progression (downed everyone up to Thorim), but I detest 25 mans.
I agree that the small difference in loot is not worth the headache of dealing with 25s.
Clevins Jun 15th 2009 1:38PM
Yes, the drops are better... and there's more competition for them. And it's far easier to get through things like the summer doldrums when you only need 10 people that when you need 25. What 25 man raiders don't get is that it's the same basic content. It's not as if they're defeating different bosses etc... it's the same lineup.
People who raid mostly for gear also tend to be, how shall I say this... drama queens. Not all certainly, but a higher percentage. They seem to forget that having higher iLevel gear doesn't make them better raiders - they just ran with more people.
Even hardmodes etc, while fun, are many times motivated by gear. At the end of the day, you need to find people who want to raid for similar reasons... in 10s that will be to see new content, get new gear and have fun. In 25s I think you add an element of epeen ('real raiders do 25s' etc...) and caring about gear - it can still be fun, but you need to watch the potential for drama.
To the point about being one of the bets 10s guilds on a server... I have respect for people who do that in 10s gear. Too many people prance around about what they do on 10s re hard modes etc while not mentioning that they have gear from 25s.
Ragnaar Jun 15th 2009 1:40PM
I agree, casual is 25 player raids. When I am 20% of the dps, the pressure is on.
tresser Jun 15th 2009 1:45PM
Amen
turkeyspit Jun 15th 2009 2:20PM
LOL, so now 25 man Raids are 'casual' and 10 man Raids are the 'real dea ?'
Proves the old saying "give a scrub a pancake..."
Eri Jun 15th 2009 2:21PM
Indeed, in 10-man, you screw, you screw the whole raid. Every player is a key player in a ten man. In 25, there's way more confusion, more voices on vent, more chances to screw it up. I find 10-man way more fun and the camaraderie is awesome within my guild.
bd_connelly Aug 12th 2009 7:03PM
Disagree. 20% of the dps? That's only if you are that good! The other dps could be carrying you through 10 mans. It's the same in 25s. Both 25s and 10s have fights that are harder compared to the other. And I agree with the last statement made by the author. Most people either don't want to put in the time or do not have the time to organize 25 man raid groups. 25s take more time and effort. And if you think 25 man organization is hard try going back to Vanilla WoW's 40 man raids. 10 mans causes more headaches to me than a 25 ever will. Normally with a 25 man raiding guild they have a roster of at least 35 raiders. This leaves more room for people that need a night off etc. If you feel like because you miss one night you are completely letting down your guild then I think you need to take a step back and ask why you are raiding. Any reasonable, responsible guild should understand that real life is more important than anything going on in WoW. I always just post to inform my officers "hey I've gotta work tonight." "going out with the family" etc.
And to the posters crying people play too much when they play five or more nights. Many of those guilds start out hardcore with 4-5 nights a week fomo 7-3am and then once content is on farm a few weeks later they are at 3 nights a week at the most. Smashing through the content has its advantages and disadvantages. If I had the kind of time those raiders had I would definitely have looked into a much more hardcore raiding guild when Wrath was released. Progression is exciting and it adds to the competition found in WoW.