Officers' Quarters: Normal raiders are people, too

Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.
"Normal" mode sounds so dull, doesn't it? Who would want to be "Normal" when you can be "Heroic" -- particularly when being Heroic garners better loot and, for healers specifically, a chance at the ultimate healing mace, Val'anyr. Most guilds on my server prefer the larger raids, and who can blame them? Normal mode is often seen as a fun distraction. Something for raiders to pass the time with, or gear up their alts in, when their guild isn't tackling the "real" version of the instance.
Sometimes Normal mode is easier. There's no question that fights like Vezax are much less complicated when you're only dealing with 10 players. It's certainly nice not having to worry about switching tanks on Kologarn or interrupting Auriaya's Sentinel Blast. But sometimes Normal is not easier. The margin of error is a lot thinner when one death means you've lost half your tanks, a half or a third of your healers, or 15-20% of your DPS. And it could be that your raid doesn't have a single battle rez, let alone three or four. Maybe that's why players prefer Heroic raids: Unless you're going after the more difficult hard-mode encounters, it's not the end of the world when you screw up and die.
This week, one guild leader asks, when most serious raiders only want to run Heroic raids, how can someone recruit for a Normal raiding guild?
Hi Scott,
I'm the GM of a reasonably-successful 10-man raiding guild (we're ranked in the top 90 US guilds according to GuildOx's "Strict 10-man" filter). Like many other guilds, we're seeing a decline in attendance lately (as per your most recent column, "Surviving summer"), and it's become obvious that we need to recruit 4-5 more people of various classes/specs so we can reliably run our scheduled raids without depending on 100% perfect attendance from anyone.
Unfortunately, it's been incredibly difficult to find potential recruits. Most of the people posting on the official Guild Recruitment forum are looking to run 25-man raids. Is there a perception that 25-mans are for "serious" raiders and 10-mans are for "casuals"? We're not a casual guild nor are we bad players, we just prefer the more close-knit sense of camaraderie that comes with a smaller group. The type of players we want to recruit -- experienced raiders who are dedicated min-maxers and really want to push difficult content -- seem to gravitate towards 25-man guilds. Surely we can't be the only progression-oriented raiders who prefer 10s to 25s, right? How can we find potential recruits who feel the same way?
Cheers,
Abima
GM of <Business Time>, Moonrunner-US
Abima, I feel your pain. My guild is in a similar situation. We run Heroic raids with other guilds from time to time, but we focus mainly on trying to be the best Normal-mode guild on the server. It puts us in a difficult place. If one thing is true about dedicated Normal raiding guilds, it's that we're a niche market. You definitely have to temper your expectations for the number of quality applications you're going to get.
Here's the good news. Heroic raiding guilds are a dime a dozen. Some are more successful than others. Some are absolutely excellent: They mastered Ulduar in a few weeks and began working on hard modes shortly thereafter. But many others struggle along, barely able to keep their roster intact, sometimes filling in the gaps with PUG players. They get boss kills, and they get loot, but they rarely go after hard modes or achievements. Their players don't interact much outside of raids. If they ever stalled out on raiding for a week or two and the loot dried up, the entire guild would collapse.
For some raiders, that's not enough. Those are the raiders you have to appeal to. You have to emphasize two things: the family-like atmosphere and the push for achievements and hard modes.
The first emphasis is an easy sell. Clearly you value the closeness of your community or you wouldn't be a Normal-mode raiding guild at all. But you still need to make it clear what that means in your recruiting pitch. What do you do differently than a typical Heroic raiding guild? Do you hold special events that have nothing to do with raids? Do you allow your raiders more input in determining the direction of the guild? Tell people about these differences.
The second emphasis is something you can't just talk about. You have to prove it. The biggest problem with serious Normal raiding is getting people to take you seriously.
Looking over your armory, I like that you've gone after some of the wackier achievements, like Not-So-Friendly Fire and Dwarfageddon. You've also managed some impressive ones from Tier 7 raids like And They Would All Go Down Together and A Poke in the Eye.
However, so far the only hard modes you've defeated are Sartharion with one drake and Flame Leviathan with one tower. Now, if you can do those, I guarantee that you can do them with two drakes and two or even three towers. You can also do Freya with one Elder. Try them out! Those achievements can be part of your normal clears without taking up a large portion of extra time, and they convey a message that you're serious about hard modes and about excelling in general.
For now, though, you should probably focus on getting Yogg down before you get too deep into hard modes. Having cleared all Normal raid content without the help of Heroic Ulduar loot will be a feather in your cap. The nerfs this past week should help you with that. Skip some of the earlier bosses for a couple of weeks so you can push right for Yogg.
I don't want to turn this column into armory bashing, so I'll stop there. I'm not trying to pick apart your accomplishments here -- I'm just trying to help you prioritize. Your guild has a lot to be proud of so far!
The bottom line, for any serious Normal raiding guild, is you have to take advantage of getting all your best people in a raid when you have them. Take an extra 20 or 30 minutes to get a hard mode achievement like Knock on Wood when the opportunity presents itself. Then tout these achievements when you recruit. No, it's not the same as defeating the full hard mode would be, but it's an indication that you're heading in that direction.
That will signal to other like-minded players that you aren't just a bunch of lazy slobs for whom putting together 25 players is too much work. That you are, in fact, real raiders in a real raid, and that you do take it seriously -- perhaps more seriously than some Heroic raiding guilds do!
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Stages Jun 15th 2009 1:51PM
I'm part of a guild like described in the article (though we haven't attempted hard modes in Ulduar yet). One of the things we do to help build up our progression team is 1-2 nights of Naxx a week with our newer/undergeared raiders to teach them how to raid, as well as get them geared enough to be on standby for Ulduar.
We also have one night of world PvP as a guild, which helps break the monotony of raiding four nights a week.
zakzak+wow Jun 15th 2009 1:55PM
I feel really lucky to have found a group of 10 people that I can run progression 10-man content with every week. We only run one night per week since that's the only time everyone is available. We're members of four different guilds, but we take our progression seriously and we're all pretty good raiders - we just prefer the tighter-knit 10-man format and we have a lot of fun joking around on vent and stuff.
I run 25-man PUGs (everything but Ulduar) on my alts from time to time through the week, but I usually don't enjoy it. It's just for the gear, not for the fun. I keep saying I'm going to quit, but ZOMG THE GEAR!
Since I am only raiding one night right now, I am trying to find another team or guild for running serious 10-man's with on one of my alts. I'm finding the same situation this person is - everyone is either inexperienced and just doing the 10-man run to prepare for the 25's or they're already a regular 25-man raider that is screwing around in the 10-man on an off-night (and doesn't take it seriously).
Brian Jun 15th 2009 1:57PM
hey I recognize someone in that screenshot
elfennau Jun 15th 2009 1:58PM
"Surely we can't be the only progression-oriented raiders who prefer 10s to 25s, right? "
I dunno, does seem to be the way of it. /shrug
Praetor Jun 15th 2009 2:07PM
My guild is a 10 man dedicated guild. While we haven't completed any hard modes or even got to Yogg yet (Mimiron!!!) we're serious about the time we spend killing stuff. One thing, I think, that makes us 'successful' is we try to limit our members to adult age people; it's helped keep the drama down, and nearly every time we've gone out on a limb to invite a younger person it just doesn't work out - not to say that younger people can't play, just that they don't mesh with us.
Most of our new recruits we've found through having to pug one or two people when we're short a night; there are people out there who want the smaller, tight-knit experience, but still want to stick it to the baddies. Good luck.
Threestars of Uldaman Jun 15th 2009 2:39PM
We are in a similar position, on a fairly low population server.
The guild over time has gotten split over all 5 timezones (4 continental US and Hawaii) but we still really enjoy the tight knit community. We only raid 2 nights a week for a total of 6-7 hours each reset, and are 10/14... just starting on Mimiron
We are finding it hard to get any applicants it seems, but beyond that because of the limited number of raid spots and nights... we work very hard to not add extra people for classes where we already have good representation (do we really need a 4th raiding mage) and are always looking for that exceptional player that is the right combination of specs (would kill for a feral tank who also had gear and experience as a boomkin, recently started looking for a shadow priest with strong disc gear and their UI already set up to heal in a pinch, you get the idea)
We have moved past the limited recruitment of the past in part because while having 4-5 people on the bench on a raid night sucked... taking 2-5 weeks off when you were a couple short or someone left the guild/game sucked more.
I agree with the author... you have to pitch the things that make you unique and then wait for that right match. For the players we have recruited and kept, the 2 night raid schedule (wednesday and Saturday) has been a huge plus. We also pushed to get some of the achievements done early and the new 'strict' 10man rankings will be helpful in the future I think (my opinion is that they could be dialed back from 9 25man progression points to 8 and you would get a cleaner break between 10man focused guilds and 25man geared guilds that ran out of steam, but that is another topic)
best of luck!
Jim Jun 15th 2009 2:43PM
Guild maybe, But some friends and I put together a 10 man with the thought of progressing to 10 man hard mode, first time together on saturday we cleared to mimiron with several of us having never been in ulduar before. A tight knit group of friends running something they enjoy running and each others companies was way more fun than running with any of the other drama guilds we have experienced. So far great loot, great fun, and great learning.
Alithoe Jun 15th 2009 2:42PM
I like doing 10-mans with my guild, and though my guild leader and I dream that one day we'll be big enough to do 25-man raids, I dread it a little at the same time. After we've been through a couple guild-hoppers and drama queens (and we hardly recruit at all) I'm not sure I'd like to run the risk of drama popping up in the middle of a big run like that and pissing off everyone. Probably part of that comes from being not-so-hardcore (avoiding the even-more vague "casual" term), where we don't like pushing for progression just for the sake of new gear.
The loot is nice, yes. But if I ever do a 25-man, it's almost always in (or as) a PUG. Healing 25-mans is fun, but as most everyone else has said: it just doesn't have the same fun atmosphere. Usually when I'm in a 25-man PUG, I'll drop some fish feasts and offer my opinion on what I should be doing (though I can't gauge how annoying I am to those raid leaders :P) but I'll sit in Guild chat most of the time.
Toazhu Jun 15th 2009 3:31PM
I've been in our guild's core 10 man raiding group for ulduar since its launch and I got to say its really brought us closer together. We dont have enough people so far to start up a 25 man group yet but the 10 mans are a way to get everyone involved and have them run with us so they dont feel left out. Our guild was stuck on yogg before we started to get everyone else involved and get them better loot. Now we have two groups of ulduar raiding people who are either on yogg or on general and most of them weren't serious raiders before they joined up with us. If you had asked me if I would have rather ran a 10 or a 25 man ulduar 6 weeks ago I would have told you 25 man. Now, however, after all the great times we have in getting to know new people and getting more people better gear to make their experiences better, I would have to say 10 man. Applicants are still rolling in and we should be starting a 25 man group shortly, however I wouldnt trade the time we have spent in 10 man ulduar, learning it together, for nothing.
Kelz Jun 15th 2009 3:44PM
I'm in a purely 10-man guild. We need to recruit, always having to pug a heals or two or a tank depending on who's actually online that night. We have enough people, they just don't show.
Because of this, it takes us forever to get going each night, and what should be about 6 hours over two nights turns into 6 hours over 3.
We're currently 7/10, and would be further if we actually started on time probably.
/sigh
Kelz Jun 15th 2009 3:44PM
7/14 even... I need to wake up!
Tilt Jun 15th 2009 4:34PM
My guild is ranked second on my server in Guildox's 10-man strict rankings. We will be first when we do Iron Council hard mode, as we've beaten Yogg Saron and done Deconstructor and Thorim hard modes.
Our guild has 10-13 serious raiders. We all know each other, our strengths and weaknesses, our voices on Vent, our playstyle, our needs and wants. We default to each other, we pass gear along when it's for the best for someone else who's wanting. I'm not saying this does not exist in 25-man guilds, but when I was in a 40-man guild back in Vanilla, I only talked to maybe 5 people.
Why do we run 10-man? We like the people in our guild. We're not hard to get along with, but we... how should I put this? We want to be serious, and it is hard to get people who are serious and on our level. We gripe and moan about 25-man gear, but we go on and get 10s done. Heck, lots of BiS loot comes from 10-man hard modes, so we're on our way. Some of us pug 25-man Ulduar/Emalon for badges, as we pugged 25-man Naxx for loot and badges. I know I personally try my best to improve my gear as much as I can, because I ~am 20% of our DPS, as someone said above.
I know I'm not happy as a raider unless I'm pushing myself to do the best I can, be that 10s or 25s. So what difference does it make, how many people we bring in?
Brian Jun 15th 2009 4:42PM
To me it is completely about the people you play with. It is much easier to find 9 other people who hold similar mindsets than have to get 24. I only raid 2 or 3 times per week, my gaming time is limited by real life stuff so I want to enjoy as much of it as I can.
Raven2212 Jun 15th 2009 4:49PM
I am a raid leader of a 10 man raiding guild (#1 server, top 90 world) and we HAVE done hard modes and are up to Yogg on normal modes. We still have this issue, one big thing is that the population of the server is low so most of the people who want to raid (and not one that just hope to sneak in and sponge gear) are taking up in the multitude of raiding guilds on the server. We have been recruiting while a while and all I can say is, keep at it. You just have to have a trade chat spam make sure you post on the boards and just hope you catch the eye of a like minded person. There ARE a lot of people out there that have run in 40/25 guilds for most of their real life and are either tired of the drama that most 25s bring or whatever. We still raid 3 days a week in Ulduar (occasionally four when people want to but 3 are set) like a "real" raid guild, our main attraction for people is hard modes: we have downed some and each week we spend most of our time attempting new ones (if we did all normals we could clear Ulduar in 1.5 raid nights) our wipes come from progressing on hard modes 75% of the time and maybe Yogg 15% (some random wipes of course from normal screw ups not accounted for). The other thing we bring is the small atmosphere and that you can reasonably expect to get to know everyone in the first few times you raid, I have raided in plenty of 25 content prior to wrath and most of the time 25 guilds are segmented into cliques of friends or harder core versus more casual etc. In 10 man you don't really run into that as players raid with the same basic group every night.
To the author of the letter, just keep trying and get some hard modes down try and get a core group that you can keep hold of for the Argent raid and Icecrown. Might be worth looking at a server transfer if your guild can find one that accommodates more memebrs
Brian Jun 15th 2009 5:54PM
The problem isn't 25 mans are for serious raiders, the problem is there's no upgrades in 10 man ulduar for instance if you ran naxx 25 several times. I've been doing ulduar 10 for like 7 or 8 weeks with only 2 upgrades to date, Tier 8 pieces, and they're questionable upgrades. I'm looking to stop doing 10 man and start doing 25s
The Claw Jun 15th 2009 6:22PM
Why is that a problem? If you geared up in Naxx-25, the next step in your intended progression is Ulduar-25.
The Claw Jun 15th 2009 6:21PM
I _knew_ this would be full of commenters trying to pretend that 10-man was harder because "one person screwing up means a lot more". Look, fellers, I know you'd like to believe that. I know you'd like to believe that you're hard done by and deserve top level loot as much as the 25-man raiders do. But it's just NOT TRUE. 10-man is MUCH easier. Yes one screwup means more but everything* is so tuned down that that screwup is vastly less likely to happen. Everything hits so much softer, so that 2-3 healers can handle all the incoming damage, but the side effect is that the scary spikes which threaten instant death in 25-man just don't exist in 10-man.
It is a mile easier. And remember - if one person screws up in Violet Hold it can wipe you, but you wouldn't say VH was harder than a 10-man raid would you?
* with the exception of maybe two mis-tuned fights, which have been admitted as mistakes by Blizzard - Sarth-3D and pre-nerf General Vezax
FoxOfWar Jun 15th 2009 9:10PM
It's not really the one screwup, it's the fact that in 25man it's so much easier to hide in the mass of bodies, just kind of go along and think it wasn't your lack of effort that killed the raid. It's easier to get on to the train of thought that leads to laziness and lack of improvement. And thus, if many people think like that, content seems harder by comparison to many.
25man is partially seeming harder because it's harder to track down and keep 25 people who can actually learn something from every wipe. 10man sure as hell is also easier, but it's not only reason why 10man progress is faster than 25man to many, our guild included.
danawhitaker Jun 15th 2009 7:14PM
The main reason that I shoot for 10-mans right now is because I can't lock myself into any raiding until after 10 p.m. at night. The majority of the 25-man stuff I see cranking up is at 7 p.m. central, or 3 a.m. central. 10-mans are easier to get together on that weird in-between time on our server.
So, simply, try and appeal to the players who can't fit into the existing "standard" 25-man raid times. They're out there. They're finishing up their heroic runs for gear and wondering how the frak they're going to start doing Naxx.
FoxOfWar Jun 15th 2009 9:01PM
Our guild does both 10man and 25man on a weekly basis. The 10man group downed Vezax today, while 25man has only gotten up to killing Hodir as the first Keeper.
I have loads of fun in both modes, although have to admit that 10man healing is more interesting and challenging(Iron Council/Mimiron/Vezax/Hodir, anyone?) - but I find that not that many of our "raiders" are interested in 10man at all. While we have enough people to run 2 or even 3 regular 10man groups, we don't have enough interested people for it. Better loot probably keeps people signing for 25man, and is a big reason for it.
Then again, I've always been in the minority in our guild that loot is merely the tool to get the job done and result of said job done well. I guess quite a few of our raiders just don't want to do 10man because it might actually come to better light that maybe they're not that good raiders after all(we just don't have any better for our 25mans at the moment). In 25man it's much easier to hide in the mass of bodies and think "it wasn't me that caused the wipe." Even I do that sometimes. But other times I really want to challenge myself, like healing Vezax tonight on 10man. It was quite the most refreshing healing fight in Ulduar.
It's easier to progress in 10man because it's much easier to track down just what went wrong, and not to do the mistake on next attempt. Those who cannot learn something from every wipe(whether or not they caused it is irrelevant) don't want to raid 10man because it actually requires everyone to carry their own weight. Granted, in Ulduar 25man requires it as well, but individuals are much harder to track down(this from healing lead perspective, btw).