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6-15-2009 @ 1:22PM
The questioner asked:"Is there a perception that 25-mans are for "serious" raiders and 10-mans are for 'casuals'?"You responded, indirectly:"That will signal to other like-minded players that you aren't just a bunch of lazy slobs for whom putting together 25 players is too much work."Is that REALLY why you think people prefer 25-mans? Sigh.The drops are better. End of story. Seriously. 80% or so of the people who prefer 25-mans do it for the better gear, whether it's their only reason or not. Maybe they do it for the added challenge, or because they love all of the people they run with... but somewhere in there, if you ask them why they prefer 25s to 10s, "the drops are better" will usually be in there. For me, it's second behind "more challenging." We aren't afraid that people will see us and think we're retarded (at least, not most of us).
6-15-2009 @ 1:49PM
A follow-up note....I'm not saying this is why EVERYONE should play 25-man instead, or why people who play 10 are stupid (i.e. my gear is better than yours, neener neener). I'm just presenting a view from a 25-man raider that doesn't involve calling people with a different preference lazy or stupid.Honestly, everyone likes different things. Can we not bitch that one or the other is better or more casual or idiocy like that?
6-15-2009 @ 2:04PM
I'm with you about 75%.The gear not being equal causes people to ignore 10 mans.The fights are often as hard or harder in 10 man because of the human element.Personal responsibility is a big thing in 10 man. We had a healer that could not understand the concept of getting between gas drops on Grob in 10 man. She wiped us 5 times before I finally got sick of it and we went somewhere else. In 25 man this same priest killed 4 people doing the same thing. We still beat him. The other healers could handle the slack and the loss of the 3 dps was not something that was going to kill us.So what did we learn that night? Leave her out the door on fights where she has to listen to directions and 10 mans are more punishing of screw ups that kill multiple people. I really do think the items being different tiers is too much of an obstacle for people recruiting for normal.
6-15-2009 @ 2:27PM
@AngusI dunno. Maybe I just run with a better group in 10s than when I do 25s (there's more ability to filter stupid people out when you take a large guild and shave it down to the ten people of your choice). But I've never thought 25s were easier. :)
6-15-2009 @ 2:30PM
I agree, the author proves they don't really believe anything they are writing when they trot out that "That will signal to other like-minded players that you aren't just a bunch of lazy slobs for whom putting together 25 players is too much work." Why did that even come up? Because he thinks that way.I have done 25 and 10, and usually the 25 version is about 10 times easier. Because when people screw up it doesn't matter as much. Not only that but if you are ONLY geared from 10 man, then it makes everything harder. Going into Uld where everyone is in 213 gear is certainly easier than going in where everyone is in 200 gear, even if you're doing 10.Certainly there are bosses that are harder in 25. But I haven't found that to be the case yet in naxx or the first section of uld. All 25 bosses should be harder, but they are not nearly hard enough to justify the better loot. I'd much rather do 10 man with a core group of friends, but i find i pretty much have to do the much easier 25s, to get the better loot. i barely have to try. I do of course, but it is frustrating to be able to progress so much quicker while doing things that are so much easier. I feel like I'm cheating or taking a shortcut when I do 25s.And yes in 10 man we've spent all night wiping and come back for more. one group is not more dedicated than the next. It's just different.
6-15-2009 @ 4:11PM
"I dunno. Maybe I just run with a better group in 10s than when I do 25s (there's more ability to filter stupid people out when you take a large guild and shave it down to the ten people of your choice). But I've never thought 25s were easier."That actually sorta proves my point. ;)In 10 mans, we do bring our great raiders and we try to be inclusive and bring our "so-so" raiders too when we can. In 25 man, those so-so raiders can screw up big time and it isn't a wipe. In 10 mans, it is almost every time. Which is easier, having a situation where brain-dead Joe wipes you because he likes standing less than 10 yards from a healer in the frost lair or 25 man where the remaining 4-6 healers keep everyone alive and someone b-rezzes the dead healer while we leave Joe dead in 25 man?Most people would say the 25 man. Our core 10 man group is very good about not standing in void zones, keeping proper distance, using tricks to stay alive and in general not wiping us. People we have gotten from 25 man guilds have forgotten these things or never learned them as well because if they died, well, the boss still went down. Healers could cover for them, and they wouldn't be too much lost DPS.I do agree with you. When I can pick my raid from the best we have, we can do amazing stuff. Even with some people that are marginal we are good. But sometimes I just need boots on the ground.
6-15-2009 @ 7:11PM
I think the author was speaking of a general perception among raiders rather than his own. You can of course debate whether this perception does exist, but it doesn't seem to far out.
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