Encrypted Text: Everything but Vanish
Every Wednesday, Chase Christian of Encrypted Text invites you to enter the world of shadows, as we explore the secrets and mechanics of the Rogue class. This week, we talk about what's up next for the Rogue class. Hopefully, nothing!While I don't have any official numbers, I think it's easy to say that Rogues are the class that sees the most complaints from others. Crying about Death Knights has been en vogue recently, but we've still got years of threads calling for the complete and utter downfall of every assassin. While all of this negative press has resulted in a few nerfs that nobody was happy with, it seems that Blizzard has chosen to rise above the noise and ensure our slot at the top of both the DPS meters and PvP representation charts.
We went through a spell as the least-played class of WotLK: a level that Rogues had never even approached previously. We were largely middle-of-the-pack in PvE and PvP, with HAT exploits and Glyphed Vigor + Overkill + Mutilate combos barely sustaining us. However, Blizzard heard our cries for a resurrection, and we were reborn in patch 3.1. With the newly minted PPM Poison mechanics adding gobs of nature damage to every spec, and the redesigned Combat tree breathing life into the raiding scene, we're sitting pretty as the #1 DPS class in both Ulduar and the arena. The question that's on my mind now: "What next?"
Blizzard's Q&A Series:
In a move that I find incredibly refreshing, Ghostcrawler and the entire dev team is opening the floor for classes to ask their most important questions. Class design, the game plan for the next few patches, and specific mechanics: they're answering questions of all types. Shamans recently had their comprehensive Q&A discussion completed, and received a lot of interesting feedback and insight into the dev team's plans.
Rogues are currently slated for the next-to-last slot in the Q&A program. I'm sure this is no coincidence, as we're in a very strong place right now. However, this also gives us a few weeks (or months) to consider what questions we would like Blizzard to answer. I started writing a list, but ended up just writing down "Vanish" and "Please let it be us getting axes!" over and over again. It was hinted that either Rogues would be getting to use Axes, or Death Knights would gain access to Fist Weapons. I am unfortunately cynical, and when confronted with question of who will likely get the new weapon skill, I'll quote Vulajin's sarcastic remark: "Hero Class."
Vanish is easily the most talked about spell the Rogue class has ever possessed. Rogues hate using it, everyone else hates when we use it, and the development team can't reproduce any issues with it. I see a hundred posts a day about the futility (or OP factor) of Vanish, and I'm left thinking it may be the only issue remaining with the Rogue class. We're obviously getting brought to raids due to our stellar damage capabilities, and our PvP stats are better than we've ever seen. What should we be asking Blizzard about, when we're working as intended?
Bloodlust:
Shamans, I'm just kidding. I would, however, like some role to play in a raid besides "just do the most DPS and nobody will care otherwise". I've noticed that in Ulduar we've had a few niches, usually interrupting, providing Wound Poison's debuff, or helping a tank generate AoE threat via Tricks of the Trade. Combat now also brings a strong physical damage increase with Savage Combat, and Master Poisoner has ended up being far stronger than Ret's Heart of the Crusader (especially with Fan of Knives to spread it). Add in Feint, Quick Recovery, and the effectiveness of Judgment of Light for us, and we're taking less damage and requiring less healing than anyone else. When we look at the big picture, Rogues actually have a fairly solid role cut out for them in the raiding world.
Sustained damage in PvP:
I've heard a lot about Blizzard's constant nerfs to Overkill and Mutilate really killing the entire viability of Rogues in PvP. When I think about the fact that the new Overkill actually yields more energy than it did previously, and gives Mutilate something in the way of a "cooldown" to use for on-demand damage with Vanish, I have a hard time seeing the complaints. Combat has always had excellent energy regeneration via Combat Potency, and Assassination is incredibly strong with effective use of restealthing. While our survivability in the open still leaves something to be desired, we are simply required to play the game of cat and mouse instead of dog versus dog.
Conclusion:
With a fairly complex class to play in both PvE and PvP, along with multiple viable trees in both environments, Rogues are sitting pretty after patch 3.1. As before, I am simply hoping that leaves us relatively untouched. This will allow us to continue to excel while providing an engaging experience in all areas. So, Blizzard: unless you really want to get your hands dirty and fix Vanish once and for all, feel free to just leave us how we are.
Filed under: Rogue, Analysis / Opinion, (Rogue) Encrypted Text
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 4)
bob Jun 17th 2009 3:55PM
Kyo, the new Overkill can be more energy, because if you vanish while your energy is at 0, then *while you're stealthed* you're regaining energy at a faster rate. So before, to regen 130 energy while stealthed would take 13 seconds (not that you necesserily would wait for it), but now that only takes 10 seconds. In this situation that's essentially 30 energy granted from overkill in addition to the 60 you'll gain over 20 seconds after leaving stealth.
Tinwhisker Jun 17th 2009 2:32PM
In PvE the new Vanish/Overkill may technically be a cooldown we can use. But the reality is that Ulduar and nearly all raid content in the future will benefit from strong cooldowns during boss encounters. And compared to what other classes have (and what can be found in the Combat tree), Vanish/Overkill is pretty pathetic.
Lemons Jun 18th 2009 4:15AM
I totally agree with this. Being Assassination for raiding is cool and all, but we literally have one cooldown (Cold Blood)...one that I don't even really consider a cooldown at all. And as far as vanishing to gain Overkill...yea it's nice...but it's not going to spike your DPS like an AR or KS.
I get so tired of hearing raid leads say "Alright, everything you guys got, blow all your cooldowns!" Sometimes I feel like yelling "I don't have any!"
Dreyja Jun 17th 2009 2:34PM
Seriously? Rogues are middle of the pack in pvp? Since when? As said above they seem to have no problem offing players 5 lvls above them on a regular basis on our pvp server. And no, these aren't just, "learn to play newbs," I'm talking about.
Of course, I'm not talking about arenas but still.
Chase Christian Jun 17th 2009 2:38PM
We WERE largely middle-of-the-pack in PvP.
crschmidt Jun 17th 2009 3:24PM
I'm still levelling, so I have a hard time finding a 'fair fight' in battlegrounds, but I've found that when I'm decently geared, and at about the same level, I don't have too much problem killing rogues with my hunter.
The key thing to surviving/protecting yourself against rogues, in my experience, is opening with an AOE. If you can get them visible, they're a lot easier to do things with. Paladins have consecrate, mages have arcane explosion, hunters have flares (and pets to help out if you get sapped), priests have holy nova.
I actually found that -- so long as I had a PvP trinket, I was often able to kite a rogue while holy-nova-ing along, keeping them from vanishing, and keeping myself mostly out of harms way. I've killed a number of rogues that way in Battlegrounds.
Obviously, this is not Arena, and I'm clearly not a top ranked player. None of this means that a twink can't kill me -- and damn fast, often in what seems like only one or two GCDs. However, against a relatively evenly geared/levelled rogue, I've found that with some skill, I can usually do decent at putting up a decent fight.
I will admit that getting out of that first sap offers a huge benefit, and I know that I can't do as well without a trinket. And maybe I'm just succeeding when fighting really crappy rogues. :)
Feist Jun 17th 2009 4:16PM
Below Max lvl world pvp is rlly rlly srs bzns.
Jason P Jun 17th 2009 2:43PM
I love using Vanish. I use it all the time. Dont touch a thing.
Myf Jun 17th 2009 2:44PM
"We went through a spell as the least-played class of WotLK"
We still are:
http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php?serverid=-1&factionid=-1&minlevel=80&maxlevel=80&servertypeid=-1
Pantyraider Jun 17th 2009 2:52PM
Missing a couple few million players.
Myf Jun 17th 2009 2:55PM
Since blizz won't release offical figures, thats the best data the community has.
Either the author has based his claim the same data I base mine, or he is making the claim up.
Myf Jun 17th 2009 2:59PM
Furthermore, look at the data not just for 80-80, but 71-80, basically toons that people have played after Wrath shipped:
http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php?serverid=-1&factionid=-1&minlevel=71&maxlevel=80&servertypeid=-1
Rogues are still bottom.
Lowest representation at level 80
Lowest representation for level 71 to 80
Steve Jun 17th 2009 2:45PM
Technically a PvE rogue wouldn't have Quick Recovery, there are better points to fill in.
Also, an Elemental Shaman's Totem of Wrath would be better than both Crusader and Master Poisoner. Cause it's an aoe debuff instantly with the totem.
And, in all likelihood, a rogue wouldn't fill up Master Poisoner, Turn the Tables is better for the last points at least. So a rogue would wind up only having 1-2% of the crit debuff.
Camo Jul 6th 2009 5:20AM
You're wrong Master Poisoner grants 45% better rate of applying Deadly Poison after an envenom making it far better than Turning the Table.
Mork Jun 17th 2009 2:54PM
I would really like to see Blizzard do something about deep Subtlety, either for PvE or PvP. While sub rogues can definitely put out some serious burst coming from stealth, about 6s out of stealth they are pretty weak and exceptionally fragile. The lack of Quick Recovery or other survivability buffs makes it impossible for a deep sub rogue to dream about competing seriously in arena...and HAT is too gimicky and dependent on your other party members to be solely relied upon for PvE. My dreams for deep subtlety:
1) Some out of stealth survivability, like a reworking of Cheat Death to be a on demand defensive cooldown ala mini-Pain Suppression or the like.
2) More sustained DPS 6s out of stealth. Further reduce the energy cost of backstab or increase the damage of Hemo. Even better, something that makes sub rogue auto attacks deal additional nature or shadow damage ala Necrosis would be an excellent PvE and PvP buff.
Noscy Jun 17th 2009 7:19PM
The top 2 Arena teams in the Intel Championship Final (HON and SK Korea) ran RMP (Obviously) however with different specs as opposed to the cookie cutter Mut/Prep Rogue, and Frost Mage which they easily beat, They ran Sub Rogue and Arcane Mage. Now don't tell me that it isn't a viable spec.
Anthony Jun 17th 2009 3:00PM
I've been playing WoW for years on a PVP server and generally speaking the most common times to encounter a rogue are:
1. When my character is sitting down having a drink
2. When my character is engaged in combat
3. When my character is AFK
Needless to say all three of those encounters involve surprise ganking, lots of stunning and, in the event I don't die, lots of vanishing. Even today at lunch my Druid was killed in the Stormwind Auction house. Rogue popped up behind me, kept me stun locked until I died and then vanished before anyone could react.
As someone beside me said, "Welcome to a PVP server." However I'd argue that isn't PVP at all. If I don't have control over my character and can't fight back, there's not much sport it in the confrontation. Especially since even if I can manage to fight back the character will just vanish to reset the fight.
So, for better or for worse, I've got no respect for the class. I'm not a big fan of stereotyping but it takes a certain mindset to play a character than mainly excels in killing other defenseless players. Sure rogues can do great DPS (if played properly) but I'm still far more likely to encounter one while mining a node in lowbie land than doing an end game run and because of that I'm just a little jaded.
Clevins Jun 17th 2009 3:09PM
Yeah, how DARE the class designed as sneaky assassins actually BE sneaky assassins? I mean it's so UNFAIR!
Dreyja Jun 17th 2009 3:12PM
I'm glad you said it first. Those are my thoughts exactly.
I'm sorry rogues but I have zero respect for a class that requires you hit from behind and, in general, be a complete bastard. :) It's how it's built but I don't get why people play them at all. I get that it requires skill, TOTALLY, that's not my point. There is no honor there. But I'm continually dissapointed that honor is a form of currency in the game, not an actual ethic and blizzard builds it that way.
ResidentBio Jun 17th 2009 3:12PM
This is exactly my feeling, not just vanish, we hav to deal with chain stun locks