Encrypted Text: Everything but Vanish
Every Wednesday, Chase Christian of Encrypted Text invites you to enter the world of shadows, as we explore the secrets and mechanics of the Rogue class. This week, we talk about what's up next for the Rogue class. Hopefully, nothing!While I don't have any official numbers, I think it's easy to say that Rogues are the class that sees the most complaints from others. Crying about Death Knights has been en vogue recently, but we've still got years of threads calling for the complete and utter downfall of every assassin. While all of this negative press has resulted in a few nerfs that nobody was happy with, it seems that Blizzard has chosen to rise above the noise and ensure our slot at the top of both the DPS meters and PvP representation charts.
We went through a spell as the least-played class of WotLK: a level that Rogues had never even approached previously. We were largely middle-of-the-pack in PvE and PvP, with HAT exploits and Glyphed Vigor + Overkill + Mutilate combos barely sustaining us. However, Blizzard heard our cries for a resurrection, and we were reborn in patch 3.1. With the newly minted PPM Poison mechanics adding gobs of nature damage to every spec, and the redesigned Combat tree breathing life into the raiding scene, we're sitting pretty as the #1 DPS class in both Ulduar and the arena. The question that's on my mind now: "What next?"
Blizzard's Q&A Series:
In a move that I find incredibly refreshing, Ghostcrawler and the entire dev team is opening the floor for classes to ask their most important questions. Class design, the game plan for the next few patches, and specific mechanics: they're answering questions of all types. Shamans recently had their comprehensive Q&A discussion completed, and received a lot of interesting feedback and insight into the dev team's plans.
Rogues are currently slated for the next-to-last slot in the Q&A program. I'm sure this is no coincidence, as we're in a very strong place right now. However, this also gives us a few weeks (or months) to consider what questions we would like Blizzard to answer. I started writing a list, but ended up just writing down "Vanish" and "Please let it be us getting axes!" over and over again. It was hinted that either Rogues would be getting to use Axes, or Death Knights would gain access to Fist Weapons. I am unfortunately cynical, and when confronted with question of who will likely get the new weapon skill, I'll quote Vulajin's sarcastic remark: "Hero Class."
Vanish is easily the most talked about spell the Rogue class has ever possessed. Rogues hate using it, everyone else hates when we use it, and the development team can't reproduce any issues with it. I see a hundred posts a day about the futility (or OP factor) of Vanish, and I'm left thinking it may be the only issue remaining with the Rogue class. We're obviously getting brought to raids due to our stellar damage capabilities, and our PvP stats are better than we've ever seen. What should we be asking Blizzard about, when we're working as intended?
Bloodlust:
Shamans, I'm just kidding. I would, however, like some role to play in a raid besides "just do the most DPS and nobody will care otherwise". I've noticed that in Ulduar we've had a few niches, usually interrupting, providing Wound Poison's debuff, or helping a tank generate AoE threat via Tricks of the Trade. Combat now also brings a strong physical damage increase with Savage Combat, and Master Poisoner has ended up being far stronger than Ret's Heart of the Crusader (especially with Fan of Knives to spread it). Add in Feint, Quick Recovery, and the effectiveness of Judgment of Light for us, and we're taking less damage and requiring less healing than anyone else. When we look at the big picture, Rogues actually have a fairly solid role cut out for them in the raiding world.
Sustained damage in PvP:
I've heard a lot about Blizzard's constant nerfs to Overkill and Mutilate really killing the entire viability of Rogues in PvP. When I think about the fact that the new Overkill actually yields more energy than it did previously, and gives Mutilate something in the way of a "cooldown" to use for on-demand damage with Vanish, I have a hard time seeing the complaints. Combat has always had excellent energy regeneration via Combat Potency, and Assassination is incredibly strong with effective use of restealthing. While our survivability in the open still leaves something to be desired, we are simply required to play the game of cat and mouse instead of dog versus dog.
Conclusion:
With a fairly complex class to play in both PvE and PvP, along with multiple viable trees in both environments, Rogues are sitting pretty after patch 3.1. As before, I am simply hoping that leaves us relatively untouched. This will allow us to continue to excel while providing an engaging experience in all areas. So, Blizzard: unless you really want to get your hands dirty and fix Vanish once and for all, feel free to just leave us how we are.
Filed under: Rogue, Analysis / Opinion, (Rogue) Encrypted Text
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 4)
Kyo Jun 17th 2009 3:24PM
"Yeah, how DARE the class designed as sneaky assassins actually BE sneaky assassins? I mean it's so UNFAIR!"
^
Also to Dreyja, since when do rogues care about honor? Isn't the whole point doing what it takes to get the job done?
To Anthony - "I'm not a big fan of stereotyping but...". As for what you said earlier, the whole point of being a rogue is to kill them without allowing them to react because if they do react what are you going to do? Evasion is virtually useless, Cloak is only 5 seconds with 10% RNG, and vanish. We are not built to take damage and so we have nothing to effectively keep us alive while someone is smashing our faces in. If rogues didn't have stuns/vanish you know how horrible the class would be? In regards to being killed at the auction house, there is such a thing as a PvP trinket and nowadays when you attack virtually anyone, guards rush you through vanish so that you have to kill them before you can effectively re-stealth, but while you are doing that, more guards are coming because you are now in combat near NPCs and players and are unable to stealth.
P.S. You can always fight back, its just a matter of whether or not they completely outplay you.
Joey Jun 17th 2009 3:35PM
@KYO "You can always fight back, its just a matter of whether or not they completely outplay you."
I respectfully disagree. Winning a match against a class should not require a specific piece of gear such as a PVP trinket. Yet with rogues, that single item is all that matters. I got jumped last week in the SW bank by an 80 rogue as well (I was on my 77 Druid at the time). In that case I did trinket out and guess what? He promptly died.
Does the fact that I used a trinket make me the better player? No yet it's mainly what decided the outcome. Granted I could be encountering really bad rogues, but I just don't see the skill. The fact remains, if rogues rely on the fact that I can't move/fight or defend myself to win a match, then that's an example of poor class mechanics, not skill.
Dreyja Jun 17th 2009 3:39PM
@ Kyo
Exatly why I said it's a matter of ethic and respect on my part. /shrug
I'd like to see more honor in the game, period. I just worry for the kind of person who enjoys playing this way. :) No worries. My own guildies know exactly how nutty I am about this sort of thing so take what I say with a grain of salt. I have a lot of quests against the horde I WON'T do because they are, frankly, WRONG.
All good. Just my opinion.
Kyo Jun 17th 2009 7:57PM
To Joey - Regardless of trinkets, most classes have abilities that can help them survive stun-locking rogues (Pain suprresion, barkskin, talented HoF, etc.), but of course the PvP trinket helps greatly, but even with a trinket a good enough rogue will be able to keep you locked down from 100-0 if they pop all their cooldowns, but you know what that means? They can't do that again for another X minutes.
Joey Jun 17th 2009 8:35PM
"a good enough rogue will be able to keep you locked down from 100-0 if they pop all their cooldowns, but you know what that means? They can't do that again for another X minutes"
Which usually means they'll stay hidden until the cool downs are up. :-) Listen, certainly plenty of classes can root, CC or stun and we've all got a means to get out of at least some of those situations. The problem, as I see it, is that if a mage sheeps me, I've got a chance of regaining control over my character with at least half my life. Same with fear + dot tactics. I'll be hurting but I can react. I can dispel the dots, heal myself or even attempt to run. I've got options.
However rogues seem to be the one class that can actually take you down to nothing while keeping you fully stun locked. I do realize and respect that rogues have difficulty beating opponents that can fight back and so this mechanic is necessary, but that won't stop me from feeling that's it's cheap / and or broken. I'd much rather Blizzard addressed your classes' survivability options, than completely removed mine.
Kryxx Jun 17th 2009 11:32PM
LoL! People blow stunlocking way out of proportion. Yes, if you are below 80, an 80 rogue will destroy you. Yes, if you are wearing green gear, an epiced out rogue will destroy you. This, however, does not mean stuns are overpowered. Anyone who actually plays a rogue will tell you; you will NOT 100-0 stunlock anyone... ever... at 80 with similar gear.
For years, I've heard the same complaints about rogues. They usually boil down to something along the lines of "zomg stuns! rogues are op!"
slimj091 Jun 17th 2009 3:02PM
"I would, however, like some role to play in a raid besides "just do the most DPS and nobody will care otherwise"."
okay.. let me get this straight. Rogues said that they should be the top dps because they can only do DPS, and Warriors should be at the bottom because they can tank and dps. but now you want to do more than just dps?
i'm going to enjoy this.
if you wanted to do more than "just dps" you should have rolled a hybrid class.
Fozz Jun 17th 2009 3:30PM
Slim,
Thank you for stopping this nonsense in its tracks.
Blizzard has done a good job of providing us Rogues with raid utility without
going overboard (we can haz Bloodlust-lolz!?!)
If your complaint is you are not useful for anything in a PVE setting other than topping
the meter, my response is, please for the love of the few rogues remaining, learn to play your class.
The author has outlined several ways to be useful beyond just dps in his excellent
Ulduar Rogue Guides on this site, and I have a couple of specific examples:
ToT is extremely useful on many fights, particularly when the tank is moving alot, in
order to establish a strong aggro table. (Hodir, Ignis, Razorscale part 2, etc...)
Put a couple of points in Throwing Specialization and I promise you will feel useful.
Our guild just gathers all the adds and aoe's them in a single location for Razorscale, and
with throwing spec I am mitigating raid damage and making this strat possible.
Last week, I did 101 interrupts on one RS attempt alone, while also topping the damage meter...(hooray for OP FoK glyph!)
Also, try being really pro during Auriaya, and Killing Spree'ing the fear so you can kick Sentinel Blast and save the raid, or stunlock tanking Brundir if the OT dies on Council.
Not to mention how important you can be in Vezax and Yogg.
Please be advised, if you are complaining about a lack of utility, you are indicting your
skill level, not your class.
Again, as the poster said, we are in good place, especially when compared to the dark days of Naxx.
Now buff us! :)
Aeltyra Jun 17th 2009 3:01PM
Actually, i'd prefer if they did toy around with our class a bit.
Hunger for Blood was sold to us as a temporary solution, so hopefully they will mess around with that a bit.
Shadow Dance is also pretty lame and limited for a skill that far down, and it's not that popular either.
And while i don't think we should be able to 'tank' melee classes like in the ShS golden days, we could use a bit of survivability.
formercustomer Jun 17th 2009 3:14PM
"Blizzard has chosen to rise above the noise and ensure our slot at the top of both the DPS meters and PvP representation charts."
at least you're willing to admit to blizzard's catering to your class
Mep Jun 17th 2009 3:21PM
thanks
matthew.mcgeorge Jun 17th 2009 3:26PM
This column is frustrating to me. The ideas in this column are entirely re-hashed from previous columns or basic rogue complaints since vanilla WoW in the case of vanish.
I know that the rogue class can and will come up with more original ideas and questions for the blues.
Mostly I find it very disappointing that the poster barely touched on rogue survivability. In my opinion this is clearly our weakness and I don't believe it's a deserved weakness.
Chase Christian Jun 17th 2009 3:33PM
Survivability is a required weakness for us. Here's an example of why:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_26qbwyQq0
It's how our class is meant to be played, kiting in and out of stealth. I use Gouge about 5-6 times an Arena match, and it makes all the difference in the world. If you expect to go toe-to-toe with an opponent as we did in vanilla and TBC, you are not doing it right.
The ideas of the Rogue class have no changed much, our rotations are still the same basic concept (build CP, execute finishers), and we are lucky to have one of the best theorycrafting communities of any class. Everything about the Rogue has been broken down into the basic mathematics, and there's really no room for discussion. Anything involving PvE can be solved with 20 minutes and a spreadsheet. Anything involving PvP is not really a great theorycrafting topic, as reaction time / knowledge play a greater role than any "planning".
I find that our complex PvE and PvP combat structure (vs say a Ret Paladin) provide a very engaging experience, amongst the best of any class. I wouldn't want this changed, and I embrace the idea that we actually have decisions to make in combat.
If you feel there are ideas that we should be discussing, what are they?
Myf Jun 17th 2009 3:42PM
Agreed. The whole article sounds like "Rogues are fine L2P"
He talks about Rogues arena success.
What about how Rogues have changed from arena damage dealers to "stun duty" so a Mage can nuke them?
Forgetting arenas, what about BGs?
There's no mention how we only have 6 seconds to kill anyone, and if we don't, that we cross our fingers and hope that vanish works.
He makes no comment at all about survivability.
Personally I'm sick of having too keep everyone stunlocked to kill them, or I die.
Its not fun for anyone
To me this article reads like it was thrown together at the last second because he forgot to do it.
Chase Christian Jun 17th 2009 3:47PM
Agreed. The whole article sounds like "Rogues are fine L2P"
That's exactly what I'm saying, we're fine.
He talks about Rogues arena success.
What about how Rogues have changed from arena damage dealers to "stun duty" so a Mage can nuke them?
Arenas are about teamwork, and the fact that Rogues have great synergy with ranged/caster classes make them very desirable. A class shouldn't stand on its own the arena, it should be a part of a team effort.
Forgetting arenas, what about BGs?
There's no mention how we only have 6 seconds to kill anyone, and if we don't, that we cross our fingers and hope that vanish works.
Rogues CAN kill someone in 6 seconds (actually, 10 FYI), and that's why the class is balanced around it. We're not long-game fighters, and if you are expecting to have long, drawn out duels, you will be disappointed. It's like complaining that Execute is only usable at 20%: it's by design.
He makes no comment at all about survivability.
Personally I'm sick of having too keep everyone stunlocked to kill them, or I die.
Its not fun for anyone
Stunlocking is the key to the class. You can't play a melee hunter or play a mage without using any CC spells. I did comment on survivability, saying that it's low and we need to play defensively instead of recklessly.
matthew.mcgeorge Jun 17th 2009 3:48PM
Let me put it slightly differently. You are correct that our survivability is a required weakness. However, the degree that it is right now is a little overboard. I wear 700 plus resilience and still die in a stun lock to a fellow rogue, this did not happen prior to WoTLK, whether due to spec differences or gear differences or whatever. It's a little frustrating at the present moment.
I also agree that our complex nature is fun and that's why I play a rogue. I never mentioned that, perhaps you were replying to someone else in a passive way as a reply to my post.
I hope you can come up with more evidence than 1 youtube video as your backing to say rogues are just fine and we as a community should ignore the opportunity to grill the developers.
Myf Jun 17th 2009 3:49PM
This:
"If you expect to go toe-to-toe with an opponent as we did in vanilla and TBC, you are not doing it right."
Contradicts this:
"The ideas of the Rogue class have no changed much, "
Now I don't think we should be Warriors, but the whole design notion of not "stealthed = death", be it for the Rogue or the opponent is idiotic.
"I find that our complex PvE and PvP combat structure (vs say a Ret Paladin) provide a very engaging experience, amongst the best of any class. I wouldn't want this changed, and I embrace the idea that we actually have decisions to make in combat."
Personally I find it very frustrating that I have to play to my best, carefully making every move, with the person playing the Ret bashes 3 keys to greater effect.
Myf Jun 17th 2009 3:51PM
not "stealth = death"
Should of read:
"not stealthed = death"
WTB: Edit feature
thebl4ckd0g Jun 17th 2009 3:50PM
I agree fully with the article. Rogues now are pretty solid where we are at. The only gripe is indeed for me the way vanish works (or how it doesn't work). Just the other day while doing dailies, I had vanished to move on to another target that generates an npc that aggros. I vanished and somehow, the game ignored the 10 seconds of improved stealth vanish is supposed to grant and the previous target continued after me.
Now the only people these days I see who continue to complain about rogues needing continual nerfs are a) people who have never once played and leveled a Rogue to 80 and still play them. and b) people who just suck at PVP and instead of figuring out a way to counter the Rogues, they just complain about them. But then those are the same people who will also complain when one of their overpowered skills gets nerfed as well. Go figure.
Myf Jun 17th 2009 4:01PM
"Forgetting arenas, what about BGs?
There's no mention how we only have 6 seconds to kill anyone, and if we don't, that we cross our fingers and hope that vanish works.
Rogues CAN kill someone in 6 seconds (actually, 10 FYI), and that's why the class is balanced around it. We're not long-game fighters, and if you are expecting to have long, drawn out duels, you will be disappointed. It's like complaining that Execute is only usable at 20%: it's by design."
We're talking about BG's not arena.
Whats the point in killing someone in 10 seconds if you're now out of cooldowns and a sitting duck for any class.
It's fine in arena, kill one and 2v2 becomes 2v1, you win.
But in BG's, once you get your one kill, you will die to the next person that tabs on to you.