Encrypted Text: Everything but Vanish
Every Wednesday, Chase Christian of Encrypted Text invites you to enter the world of shadows, as we explore the secrets and mechanics of the Rogue class. This week, we talk about what's up next for the Rogue class. Hopefully, nothing!While I don't have any official numbers, I think it's easy to say that Rogues are the class that sees the most complaints from others. Crying about Death Knights has been en vogue recently, but we've still got years of threads calling for the complete and utter downfall of every assassin. While all of this negative press has resulted in a few nerfs that nobody was happy with, it seems that Blizzard has chosen to rise above the noise and ensure our slot at the top of both the DPS meters and PvP representation charts.
We went through a spell as the least-played class of WotLK: a level that Rogues had never even approached previously. We were largely middle-of-the-pack in PvE and PvP, with HAT exploits and Glyphed Vigor + Overkill + Mutilate combos barely sustaining us. However, Blizzard heard our cries for a resurrection, and we were reborn in patch 3.1. With the newly minted PPM Poison mechanics adding gobs of nature damage to every spec, and the redesigned Combat tree breathing life into the raiding scene, we're sitting pretty as the #1 DPS class in both Ulduar and the arena. The question that's on my mind now: "What next?"
Blizzard's Q&A Series:
In a move that I find incredibly refreshing, Ghostcrawler and the entire dev team is opening the floor for classes to ask their most important questions. Class design, the game plan for the next few patches, and specific mechanics: they're answering questions of all types. Shamans recently had their comprehensive Q&A discussion completed, and received a lot of interesting feedback and insight into the dev team's plans.
Rogues are currently slated for the next-to-last slot in the Q&A program. I'm sure this is no coincidence, as we're in a very strong place right now. However, this also gives us a few weeks (or months) to consider what questions we would like Blizzard to answer. I started writing a list, but ended up just writing down "Vanish" and "Please let it be us getting axes!" over and over again. It was hinted that either Rogues would be getting to use Axes, or Death Knights would gain access to Fist Weapons. I am unfortunately cynical, and when confronted with question of who will likely get the new weapon skill, I'll quote Vulajin's sarcastic remark: "Hero Class."
Vanish is easily the most talked about spell the Rogue class has ever possessed. Rogues hate using it, everyone else hates when we use it, and the development team can't reproduce any issues with it. I see a hundred posts a day about the futility (or OP factor) of Vanish, and I'm left thinking it may be the only issue remaining with the Rogue class. We're obviously getting brought to raids due to our stellar damage capabilities, and our PvP stats are better than we've ever seen. What should we be asking Blizzard about, when we're working as intended?
Bloodlust:
Shamans, I'm just kidding. I would, however, like some role to play in a raid besides "just do the most DPS and nobody will care otherwise". I've noticed that in Ulduar we've had a few niches, usually interrupting, providing Wound Poison's debuff, or helping a tank generate AoE threat via Tricks of the Trade. Combat now also brings a strong physical damage increase with Savage Combat, and Master Poisoner has ended up being far stronger than Ret's Heart of the Crusader (especially with Fan of Knives to spread it). Add in Feint, Quick Recovery, and the effectiveness of Judgment of Light for us, and we're taking less damage and requiring less healing than anyone else. When we look at the big picture, Rogues actually have a fairly solid role cut out for them in the raiding world.
Sustained damage in PvP:
I've heard a lot about Blizzard's constant nerfs to Overkill and Mutilate really killing the entire viability of Rogues in PvP. When I think about the fact that the new Overkill actually yields more energy than it did previously, and gives Mutilate something in the way of a "cooldown" to use for on-demand damage with Vanish, I have a hard time seeing the complaints. Combat has always had excellent energy regeneration via Combat Potency, and Assassination is incredibly strong with effective use of restealthing. While our survivability in the open still leaves something to be desired, we are simply required to play the game of cat and mouse instead of dog versus dog.
Conclusion:
With a fairly complex class to play in both PvE and PvP, along with multiple viable trees in both environments, Rogues are sitting pretty after patch 3.1. As before, I am simply hoping that leaves us relatively untouched. This will allow us to continue to excel while providing an engaging experience in all areas. So, Blizzard: unless you really want to get your hands dirty and fix Vanish once and for all, feel free to just leave us how we are.
Filed under: Rogue, Analysis / Opinion, (Rogue) Encrypted Text
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Reader Comments (Page 4 of 4)
Noscy Jun 17th 2009 7:30PM
Being tabbed on and killed after doing your business to another... isn't isolated to your class... exceptional players, cooldowns etc may turn that table... but don't expect to wipe the floor with everyone that you encounter
surein.aziz Jun 17th 2009 4:34PM
I agree, we're in a fine place right now. Let's not pretend we're completely OP in everything, sounds half as if you're asking for nerfs. In Arenas, we're good and certainly viable (especially in RMP in 3s, and pretty much only in RP in 2s). We're not the very best class in 2s atm - I think due to recent changes it's really druids and death knights and such edging ahead (though we were really good in the first weeks of S6).
We're certainly very viable. But my main worry is that we're teetering on a knife edge - we're traditionally dominant in 2s (and in RMP in 3s), but Blizzard wants to take emphasis off lower brackets. We're not so good in BGs, and Blizzard wants to put more emphasis on them. The odd moment of burst with CDs is our lifeblood, and Blizzard wants to take emphasis off this. If these changes happen, then the only real way to stop rogues dropping off a cliff is to give them something other than burst and stuns, and stop their complete reliance on CDs. Also, we're only viable in something like 1 or 2 comps (although some very good players can field others), while many of the other classes have a larger choice.
In short, we're very strong, but not the best, and we will have to be monitored closely to stop certain changes destroying us. I hope Blizzard don't put us completely on the back-burner.
As for PvE, we're near the top of the dps charts (though feral druids seem to be doing better). The ycertainly need to be broguht down. My main concern is that there are many fights which don't really favour us - very little chance to do sustained dps on a boss, some chance to FoK-spam but I'd hate to see our class reduced to just one-click ponies. (FoK. FoK. FoK. FoK. FoK.) Really, really boring. And on the fights where we aren't the best, there are many reasons to take another class (sure, we have some situational utility, but it really isn't that much - ToT is nice, but it's nothing a competent tank can't do without. Throwing spec leaves us with less dps and is only useful on a very limited number of fights. There are other little tricks but other classes have more. The fact is, we have to dig deep to come up with 2-3 really good utilities which can be used only situationally, while other classes can come up with dozens).
The main problem I have is that we're one of the only classes that is simply worse than any class in PvE. If you have similar numbers of rogues and druids in group, a raid leader would have to be insane to pick a rogue over an equally skilled/geared feral. If you think this is rubbish - why are we one of the least played classes? The only explanation I can come up with is that in many situations there are other classes which are the same, but better.
We're doing fine, but there are still improvements to be made and careful monitoring to be done.
Myf Jun 17th 2009 6:06PM
Your comment is better than the article =)
AAron Jun 17th 2009 4:59PM
I think its funny that people will QQ about a rogue stun locking them, but then go on to say that if they trinket the stun and the rogue doesn't vanish, they kill the rogue. How can you QQ about a fight you win...
I noticed that there were some posts about how having the trinket =! skill. It's not the fact of having the trinket, it's the ability to use the trinket at the right time that is the skill.
All I have to say to the QQer's is: Play a rogue and be good at playing one. Then you have the right to QQ about them.
AAron Jun 17th 2009 5:00PM
I would also like to add that I whole-heartedly agree that we are in one of the best places we have been in a long time and Blizz better not F that up. But you can still fix Vanish, Blizz. Please...
Muntwagon Jun 17th 2009 7:42PM
I think people aren't being 100% honest with themselves if they think rogues are "fine" right now. Can't really blame them tho. It's pretty hard to remain objectionable when you are talking about changes that will directly decrease/increase your enjoyment of the class.
If you dont quite understand let me explain it this way:
When rogues were bottom of the barrel pre 3.1 there was only one way to go, up. Now as Chase wrote we're top dogs when it comes to PVP and PVE (I'm sure there are people that will dispute this but numbers don't lie). Guess which is the only direction we can go now?
Disclaimer: above post was made by a mostly PVE oriented rogue with some PVP experience
Kryxx Jun 17th 2009 11:59PM
Where are these numbers you speak of?
Naku Jun 18th 2009 5:33AM
I dont have many PVE experience with rogues, but in PVP - I mostly play BG-s - they are real Pain in the ass. stunstunstun, Trinket! Im Free! No, stunstunstunstunstunstun, death. And they are usualy at the top at the end. But i dont say rogues should be nefred. The "years of threads calling for the complete and utter downfall of every assassin" came from - i think - the class playstyle. While its fun to play - i had one years ago - its quiet disgusting and spineless attack someone who can do nothing, and most people feel frustrated becouse of that.
greenthumbs Jun 18th 2009 6:44AM
On a not so serious sidenote: troll rogues are teh seks.
Schnoggo Jun 18th 2009 1:16PM
I've always found the whole Slow Main-hand/Fast Off-hand mechanic odd.
I'm a rogue! I shouldn't be using brute force to bash something with a big mace or blade.
A dagger, rapier, or saber making precise and deadly wounds - that's the roguish way.
It kills me that I can't spec combat-daggers for raiding.
beyazkaplan55 Jun 19th 2009 5:06AM
"Blizzard has chosen to rise above the noise and ensure our slot at the top of both the DPS meters and PvP representation charts."
So no matter what skill rogues should be top? and Rogues is only dps class? Sorry but those are nothing but a childish dreams.
Lemons Jun 21st 2009 6:09AM
This post disgusts me. Really. It's on of Chase Christian's worst BY FAR. by saying "Rogues are fine" we're encouraging Blizz to stop work on us when there is still work to be done! We got about 5 freaking lines of text in the 3.2 patch notes for christ sakes. Rogues still have major problems that need to be addressed...
-Subtlety is a useless tree. It's not viable in either PvE or PvP. I don't think there is another class that currently has this problem. Sub is essentially in the same place as Arcane and Retribution were pre-Wrath, I hope Blizz sees this and buffs sub like it buffed those trees.
-Our survivability in PvP is THE LOWEST of all the classes. Period. That needs to change.
-Obvious and long standing gripes still need to be addressed. Vanish. Cloak. They're not fixed until they're fixed.
And those are just the main issues! Blizzard...you're work isn't over yet...this is how WoW works. You can't just delcare a class "done", especially when you're changing all the classes around it. You NEED to change the class that's "done" simply becuase you've changed the other classes, and the "done" class needs to keep up with those changes. For instance...you gave EVERY CLASS survivability...now Rogues are asking "where's our survivability?" and so on and so forth until the end of freaking time!
If 3.2 goes live in the sorry state that it's in I'm not going to be a very happy Rogue.
Chase Christian Jun 21st 2009 3:57PM
Subtlety is just as "useless" as BM hunters, Demonology Warlocks, etc. They're useful and viable, but require specific setups for them to work (see: BM cleave teams). I would much rather have Combat and Assassination be as strong as they are in PvP/PvE than risk balance by buffing Subtlety. Shadowdance still works (yes, even in tournaments) for PvP, and I think that having 5/6 areas balanced (2 specs in PvE, 3 specs in PvP) is progress.
Our survivability is the lowest... but someone has to be the lowest. We're never going to wear plate or mail, we're never going to get shields, and we're always going to be squishy. Are you wearing over 1000 resilience? Because that's what healers have to wear. Rogues got content using a couple hundred resilience and just stacking PvE gear. That's no longer the case. We've got a ton of burst, and the trade off is low survivability unless you're wearing full resilience gear (which nearly no Rogue does). Someone has to be the lowest, but it's also the reason we have the best DPS.
I believe I mentioned Vanish. Cloak should be 100%, but I've also covered that in a previous article as well.
Classes near us are being nerfed (read: DKs, Feral Druids) and there is really no DPS spec being buffed by a ton. We're going to be top dogs in PvE and retain our PvP viability, and I'd rather not look a gift horse in the mouth. If you're at the top, asking for "fixing" is only going to support the waves of people complaining about our strength. I would gladly trade survivability for the burst damage we're capable of. There's no more toe-to-toe, especially since every Rogue wears PvE gear in PvP. We've got to get back to our intended design of quick kills and escapes.
Lemons Jun 22nd 2009 2:48AM
Yea...more like 3/6 cause any Rogue who isn't an insane top pvper in a tournament is going to spec mutilate/prep for PvP, and are you suggesting that combat is used at all for PvP? Yea, no...try again please. Buffing one spec isn't going to break another spec...you buff one you leave the other alone...is that so hard?
I have also played the pvpz...and I've never tried to be a warrior with my Rogue...but our survivability is so low it's disgusting. Ret paladins and DKs have excellent burst (as good or better than a Rogue's) AND have great survivability. While I'm not asking for the survivability of a plate wearing class I would like a bit more so that I can perhaps fight more than one lone opponent at once in the BGs. Buffing the agil/dodge coeffecient would definately help with this...in BC I was around 30% dodge in my PvP gear...now I'm around 22%...
I don't know why you're so happy with our burst...since the change to Overkill our burst was nerfed substantially, and we shouldn't completely suck unless we're decked out in Ulduar 25 hard mode epics...
Chase Christian Jun 22nd 2009 3:04AM
Combat has been used quite successfully in PvP, check out any highly rated Rogue in 5v5. Adrenaline Rush + FoK really provides such a massive amount of MS debuff + healing pressure that Combat Rogues on 5's are damn near godlike. I've also seen a lot of SD Rogues (who are happy with the change in 3.2, btw).
" I would like a bit more so that I can perhaps fight more than one lone opponent at once in the BGs. "
You'd like the ability to 1v2 someone? That's not balance. 1v1 also isn't balanced, and apparently according to Blizzard, neither is 2v2 (see 2's patch notes). Your survivability in a duel is irrelevant, as is your ability to 1vN. I remember the days of Rogues taking out waves of opponents via CC, I watched a Ming (or was it Happyminti?) video where he killed about 7 people in Blackrock Mountain with bandaids and potions. It was great to watch, but terrible for balance.
"I don't know why you're so happy with our burst...since the change to Overkill our burst was nerfed substantially"
Yes, our 6 second burst was nerfed, but our 10-20 second burst was buffed in a crazy way. In my opinion, the ability to empty an energy bar, vanish, and be ready to go again 30% quicker is a huge boon to the Rogue class, as a 1-burst-shot scenario is rare and not desirable.
Lemons Jun 22nd 2009 3:45AM
I see we like quoting...I can quote too...
"but our 10-20 second burst was buffed in a crazy way"
That does not compute...do you even know what burst is? I wouldn't call a few extra Mutilates over the course of 20 secs crazy...I'd call that healable. Also, how does this line up with...
"We've got to get back to our intended design of quick kills and escapes."
How does 20 secs = quickly killing someone? That is a virtual eternity in PvP. The Overkill change was a direct nerf to Rogue PvP, why do you think it happened in the first place? Simply becuase we have more energy at the end of the day doesn't mean it was a buff.
I'll admit there are some Combat Rogues in PvP...as well as some Sub Rogues...but both are very niche markets and are far from what I'd consider a true PvP specs...I mean...run out and spam FoKs? Wtf is that? the count still stands at 3/6 imo...
In closing...yes I do want to be able to 1 v 2 people. I have excellent gear that I have worked my ass off for, and when they run up to me with the Saronite PvP set I should be able to easily overpower them. Instead I spend BGs constantly looking over my shoulder hoping no one comes to assit my victim becuase if so I am completely and utterly screwed 98% of the time.
Of course every Rogue wants to "Strike hard and fade away", but the reality is you can only vanish once every 2 mins...
Steve Jul 6th 2009 10:33AM
What makes Turn the Tables better is the diminishing returns on Master Poisoner. Yes, 45% better rate, but if on a fast dagger, if with enough hit, you can restack it very fast negating the need for the extra proc rate. Thus, the first point of Master Poisoner is the most valuable. The last 2, not so much. As your gear improves, you'd use less and less of Master Poisoner.
Voice of Reason Aug 4th 2009 5:20PM
In my perfect world, rogues are OP at PVP (due mostly to increase survivability mechanisms in the sub tree), middle of the pack for PVE DPS, but at the same time, offer some sort of additional raid support/utility that is unique to them in the ways that hunters do.
I'd personally gladly sacrifice some raid DPS in this sense. You'd still be vital to bring along in raids, yet not completely irreplaceable, while at the same time you'd be what an assassin should be; lethal in all pvp situations.