Requiring epic achievements for normal runs
by Mike Schramm 
Jun 17th 2009 at 1:00PM
Leafshine echoes a concern I've heard a lot around the community and even here on WoW.com lately: why are some Naxx pickup group organizers requiring the epic achievement on characters joining the raid when they're only running Naxx 10? Sure, we'd all love to have raids full of epic characters, but when you consider that to even get that gear, you have to topple Naxx 25, it seems a little silly to require a raid full of characters that don't actually need the run you're going on.Then again, you could (and probably do) subscribe to the "free market" theory of PuGing: if you think that's silly, don't join that raid, and eventually people who want those requirements won't have anyone to run with (and if they do have people to run with, then apparently even those who have conquered Naxx 25 still want to go back and run 10, for fun or badges or offspec gear or whatever). But that does leave out people who really do need to (and can) run the instances -- just because you don't have a character full of gear from Naxx 25 doesn't mean you can't perform respectably in Naxx 10.
But people who PuG regularly can be pretty cynical, I'd imagine, and so most of them would rather be safe (and take people who are overgeared) than sorry (and stuck in a bad group with people who don't belong). All the more reason to find a solid guild, or at least make your reputation in a raiding group. It does seem a little out of whack to require higher achievements than the content you're raiding, but as long as people are still joining those raids, PuGers will keep requiring that level of gear.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Virtual selves, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 6)
Knyle2 Jun 17th 2009 1:07PM
This is just like the NO LOOT runs people used to do for rep,
Its legit, sometime u want to clear naxx in a pug and have it not take ur entire day. Sometimes you have time to hold hands or make sure ur buddy has no loot competition.
Bottom line, is with each wow expansion if you fall behind the curve, expect to stay behind the curve. the good news is , when arthas comes out, judging by the rest of the game, you will be able to wear ur crafted blues (tanks still needing D cap excluded) and down him in the first 2 nights.
Heres to a massively Multi player online dance recital!
T Jun 17th 2009 1:19PM
How appropriate that you have a chimp as your avatar. If you want to be more appropriate you may want to go with something less evolved. Maybe invertebrates are good place to start.
Gnosh Jun 17th 2009 1:19PM
Oh, yeah. Arthas will TOTALLY be downed in two days after release.
By Ensidia, not you. So shut your mouth.
Zebulin Jun 17th 2009 1:23PM
I'm not sure why people downrated this response. It's generally true.
People ask for these sort of achievements as both proof that you know the fights (though since some of the fights differ between 10- and 25-man, it's a little ridiculous) and to make sure you won't be rolling on "their loot".
The idea behind it is that you've already been through heroic Naxx and have the things you want, so you're not going to need to roll on the stuff in this instance now, which means more chance to get what the advertiser of the raid wants.
Frankly, I'd rather have people ask for the normal-mode achievement, or better yet, just be honest about it and come right out and say "I want loot here, don't come if you're gonna roll against me".
I see that every once in awhile for VOA, someone will put together a group and say "full on (class x)" and then they're the only one in the group. Best part is when a piece of loot drops that they already have, and then no one gets it. Makes everyone feel real good about it, I'm sure.
Bob Jun 17th 2009 1:39PM
It's just the same as on AM-H for our three times daily "For the Horde!" runs. Always advertised as 75+ only, but if you look, all of the organizers are 71-73. The people who have requirements like this usually don't meet them themselves, they just put them up to ensure that they are getting a group that can carry them/not roll on their loot. It's ridiculous, and the solution is to do exactly as the original source did: roll your own PuG. It's a pain, but if you set reasonable requirements, you should be able to clear the raid just fine (and you might steal some of the really well-geared players from the jerk PuGs).
VSUReaper Jun 17th 2009 1:08PM
I LOL all the time at people who are looking for more people, will check on armory/wowheroes/warcrafter/etc... to check gear. Or the ones that want you to link a certain achievement such as Safety Dance to prove that you are competent. I'm all for making sure your not in full greens, or lvl 70 epics, but come on, expecting people to have hard mode achievements or full ulduar epics to run a naxx 10 is stupid.
Seraphna Jun 17th 2009 1:17PM
Good god this has so many flaws. Most of the time people are gear checking is for when they want to do hard instance, 25 mans, Uld, things that actually have a gear requirement, if you're "LOL"ing at people, I'm curious to see your armory now.
As for the Safety Dance comment, I'm wondering where you get your criteria from. You want to prove an individual is competent by requiring an achievement that can only be gotten by perfection from an entire group? The only achievements you really need to see are boss kill achievements, to know of the person at least understands the fights they are going into, or look for something else that actually points to individual competency, not hive mind ability.
elfennau Jun 17th 2009 1:59PM
@Seraphna While that may be true on your home server, on Cenarion Circle Alli gear checks are done to get into some HEROIC runs. I don't mean 25 man. I mean regular 5man heroic runs. And they are done fairly often for 10man Naxx, OS with no drakes up, etc. As for the Safety Dance achievement, I've seen that required to get into a 10man Naxx run as well. So just because you don't see it happen, don't tell others it never does for "easy" stuff. It most certainly DOES happen.
VSUReaper Jun 17th 2009 2:18PM
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Blackwing+Lair&n=Bulliwyf
There ya go.
And for the record, my server is alot like elfennau. People spam chat for more dps or more tanks and then tell them they arent good enough according to what you have for gear on you at that moment or what achievements you have. Not if they can do hard modes. Getting told I'm a bad tank b/c I logged out in my farming gear (tons of block value) and I'm not good enough to do 10 man raids? No thanks, I really dont want to be in your pug anyway. Getting told I'm a bad player b/c I dont have some stupid achievement that requires group perfection, I think I will go with the next raid that whispers me.
Seraphna Jun 17th 2009 2:35PM
@VSU
Like I said, probably poorly, I can't believe someone would actually require safety dance for a raid, it's hard enough to get as is, are they HOPING for people or not?
Okay, I'll settle that there are idiots out there. I think the only thing I'm irked by is being surprised at all that even heroics are checked. Sure, people need heroics to gear, but there's a step before that that some people try and skip and it can screw up a run or make it amazingly painful for others if you don't. I gear check my heroics, because I don't enjoy shelling out 25 gold on a three token run because the tank doesn't at least have defense cap or one of the DPS is about as useful DPSing as they are healing, and they're a rogue.
There's different levels of gear check. I don't honestly think every person out there searching for a heroic group is expecting only people in Tier 8. Maybe if they're say, going for Glory of the Hero, yeah, you want people with amazingly epic gear with you to get a lot of those done, but your average checker is probably just seeing if you've bothered to run 80 normal dungeons a little before you've decided to leap into a harder version of the instances.
Is there something wrong with that?
Swampsquatch Jun 17th 2009 4:05PM
I have never seen anyone on my server requiring the "Epic" achievement for any PUG ever. Sure "For the Horde" they ask for 75+ or EoE they want to see the achievement because it can be a tough PUG. If I get a Heroic 5man together I don't care what gear you are in, however, if you are not pulling your weight in the instance (healers letting people die or
Janaa Jun 17th 2009 4:41PM
@Seraphna - Unfortunately on my server it's the situation described above. At this stage, unless someone takes pity on it, my hunter alt will never get geared. The common demands are Naxx25 achievement to do Naxx10 runs. Its very common to see "LFM Norm Obs - Link Heroic Achv", even though you can kill the place in greens in both mode, if you can't get into the raids, you can't get the achv. The minimum entrance requirement to Uludar on my server seems to be having already downed half the bosses in there. Or Maly raids where you must have "5000+ DPS" to get in. Uhh. What?
Also, as the commenter above mentioned - yes, gear checks are done for 10 mans and heroics. An all too frequent group joining conversation: "I'll come". "Link armory, stats and achv." "Link yours."
Cedric Jun 17th 2009 1:08PM
I don't have this particular problem on the Horde side on Arygos for Naxx. However, when it comes to Malygos pugs, raid leaders often will ask to see the heroic or normal achievement for spellweaver's downfall.
And for good reason too, right?
Clevins Jun 17th 2009 1:17PM
Well, no. I've pugged maly a few times, seen the whole fight deep into phase 3 but never killed him. I will eventually (he's all I need for the Frozen Wastes title) but it's not a priority. I'm midway through Ulduar with several pieces of gear from there. Do you want me or someone who was carried through a heroic Maly run and maybe died in phase 2?
Cedric Jun 17th 2009 1:34PM
Yeah, this obviously changes with Ulduar level gear; I concede that much. Before Ulduar an achievement for Malygos was pretty much required as a pug. Nowadays, I don't see him being ran much at all.
Lukeyo Jun 17th 2009 1:52PM
I look at it this way:
Prince Malche'Thuzad
Sartharion the Dragonkiller
Magtheryagos
Stomy Jun 17th 2009 1:09PM
the only thing i do when pugging as i'm a tank is put me as master looter, i've had a holy ret pally take the essence of gos in a need roll
Ignatius Jun 17th 2009 1:09PM
The achievement is sadly a way of showing that you know what you're doing. In a 25 man, you can be easily carried by much more experienced players though...
Even though I don't organize raids, if I were to, I'd just require a certain level of knowledge (explaining the fight isn't that hard and most (competent) people get it on the first try.) and at least all heroic/some naxx gear.
Everyone has a first time somewhere, if you have to be Naxx geared to go to Naxx, then there's no point in even giving someone a chance, right? Besides, it's not like you can't weed out the morons after the first or second boss fight.
Ignatius Jun 17th 2009 1:53PM
And of course I read the whole thing wrong and assumed you had to have the Heroic Naxx achievement before you ran normal naxx... ah well, it still requires about the same amount of legwork.
ToyChristopher Jun 17th 2009 1:10PM
I don't have the epic achievement because of my trinkets. They are still the very good trinkets though and I haven't seen anything better drop for me even in ulduar.