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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsRequiring epic achievements for normal runs
by Mike Schramm 
Jun 17th 2009 at 1:00PM
Leafshine echoes a concern I've heard a lot around the community and even here on WoW.com lately: why are some Naxx pickup group organizers requiring the epic achievement on characters joining the raid when they're only running Naxx 10? Sure, we'd all love to have raids full of epic characters, but when you consider that to even get that gear, you have to topple Naxx 25, it seems a little silly to require a raid full of characters that don't actually need the run you're going on.Then again, you could (and probably do) subscribe to the "free market" theory of PuGing: if you think that's silly, don't join that raid, and eventually people who want those requirements won't have anyone to run with (and if they do have people to run with, then apparently even those who have conquered Naxx 25 still want to go back and run 10, for fun or badges or offspec gear or whatever). But that does leave out people who really do need to (and can) run the instances -- just because you don't have a character full of gear from Naxx 25 doesn't mean you can't perform respectably in Naxx 10.
But people who PuG regularly can be pretty cynical, I'd imagine, and so most of them would rather be safe (and take people who are overgeared) than sorry (and stuck in a bad group with people who don't belong). All the more reason to find a solid guild, or at least make your reputation in a raiding group. It does seem a little out of whack to require higher achievements than the content you're raiding, but as long as people are still joining those raids, PuGers will keep requiring that level of gear.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Virtual selves, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 6)
Foxfyr Jun 17th 2009 1:20PM
- Get 25 Wintergrasp Marks of Honor
- Buy one of the trinkets from the Wintergrasp vendor
- Equip it in your first trinket slot
- Equip it in your second slot
- Sell it back to the vendor for 25 Wintergraps Marks of Honor
Bob Dewane Jun 17th 2009 1:25PM
@foxfyr
Awesome idea. I want the achievement, but not necessarily the gear and I TOTALLY forgot about the buyback option.
Jeremiel Jun 17th 2009 1:11PM
Although I see the motivation, and understand that it might save time, requiring 'Epic' for Naxx is a bit excessive in my opinion...
I've cleared Ulduar with my guild, but I only just picked up that achievement due to being stuck with ilvl200 trinkets for a long, long time. Our tank, who is already beginning to overgear some Uld10 encounters, doesn't have the achievement yet for similar reasons (bad luck, plus awesome JC'ing trinket).
For a PUG to turn down a 4-5kdps mage or an amazing tank just because they don't have the 'Epic' achievement would probably be hurting their run, rather than helping it.
Surely it's better just to check a player's gear in general, and perhaps achievements, to estimate their ability, rather than basing it all on a silly achievement.
Kate Jun 17th 2009 2:23PM
Same - I push well past 6k DPS on a tank-and-spank (lolPatchwerk) and sustain at least 5k on most other fights, and have yet to get the "epic" achievement because of crappy, crappy drop luck with wands (blast you, KT!). I also PUG quite a bit and have found that most of the raid leaders requiring silly achievements (ie. "Epic") are the ones that don't know how to put a successful group together and are normally looking to be carried. A good PUG leader will typically take a look at your gear to decide whether to invite you and take a look at your performance to decide whether to keep you.
Rugus Jun 17th 2009 1:12PM
What if I play with my alt who still has to run Nax but perfectly knows bosses, tactics, objectives and so on (already unvelied on the main)?
Seraphna Jun 17th 2009 1:18PM
Link your armory for the main? Achievements are listed, you can even, I know this sounds insane, hop onto the toon and show them?
Rugus Jun 17th 2009 1:23PM
@ Seraphna
Yes that can be done but honestly... it's a bit too much :). Maybe Blizz could implement a sort of public "account achievements" so that everyone can see what you have done with all of your toons.
smcn Jun 17th 2009 1:41PM
IIRC, account-wide achievements are in the works.
elfennau Jun 17th 2009 2:05PM
This is generally my problem. :(
Lucila Jun 17th 2009 2:04PM
The PuGs that I have been on where people want over-geared toons for usually are the ones that cannot get through it on their own accord so need someone who is OP to do it for them. Or they want the gear for themselves and if the people they are inviting don't need the gear cuz they are in full Ulduar gear then they better their chances for getting the gear.
elfennau Jun 17th 2009 2:11PM
Yeah, I've seen this a lot before, too.
Mark Jun 17th 2009 1:14PM
Problem: PUG groups have ridiculous requirements.
Solution: Don't join PUG groups.
Jay Jun 17th 2009 2:45PM
I have to agree. On my server there are always enough people to PuG a run of your own, you don't need to put up with someone's BS.
Those kinds of requirements are usually a red flag to me, for many of the reasons listed above: potential loot ninja, want to be carried through an instance or achievement, what have you. I have seen the "LFG for For The Alliance! 75+ only" where the raid leader doesn't meet his own standards; the best one so far was a level 66!
Gimmlette Jun 18th 2009 2:46PM
Amen. I've seen this on my server and had guild members complain in chat they were not considered for even a heroic 5-man because they didn't have something the leader wanted. One of my best hunters is leveling a warrior because she grew tired of the unrealistic expectations for heroic 5-man PuGs. I remind them that we can do things as a guild, maybe not rightnow when they want to go, but in the next couple of days.
But really, this isn't something new. I remember BC LFG posts that were, "Must know fights" or "Must have 2k dps". Maybe because there were more endgame instances to do in BC, it wasn't as prevalent as it is now, but it was there.
I can't speak to Classic as I was just a lowbie when BC came out so I never paid attention to LFG Classic endgame. I'm willing to bet, though, some PuGs had, "Must have own Ony Scale Cloak".
Sean Jun 17th 2009 1:17PM
This doesn't seem like much of a story to me. Who cares? You don't like pugging? Join a 10 man guild who is getting started. Why should people drag your ass through these things while you learn? It doesn't make you any better. If people pugging want geared people and can find people who actually want to run 10 man naxx in all 213 or higher gear, more power to em. I know I'm so sick of naxx at this point that you probably couldn't pay me to run it any more, especially on 10 man. This sounds like a bunch of wah wah wah QQ over not getting picked for a raid spot.
BishopK Jun 17th 2009 1:18PM
Sadly, pugging is pugging you know?
I mostly pug raids, and I've been in all sorts. Of course, I've been in plenty pugs that have been ruined by not even doing the most basic gear check on invites.
On the other hand, I've been in some pug raids that have been extremely picky about who they let in. This doesn't mean that everything runs smoothly when the raid gets underway. Gear checking/achievements/high scores on wow-heroes or whatever do NOT mean that the raid will run itself - even on something like Naxx 10.
I would rather be in a well-organized and well-led pug with some lesser geared people vs. a group of Ulduar geared people in a group with no leadership.
Rob Jun 17th 2009 1:28PM
I pretty much agree with Bishop, i'd rather have a stated minimum dps or whatever than join a pug which is free and is typically made of poorly experienced or geared players. I was doing 2000 dps without getting a single naxx10/25 drop in 10 mans (hunter). Granted it was a royal pain to get all that non-raid gear, but doable. Point being that a 2000 dps minimum is doable without naxx with most classes (think of the group buffs, stat foods, etc).
Naxx clears take a long time, and if you have guys constantly dying or way undergeared, then you are just not going to get anywhere. I've been in epic 7 hour naxx runs, and I never want to do it again (granted I got 6 upgrades that night/morning).
Lastly, the link to epic achievements is of course overkill, but its better than saying 'dps you need 2000dps, but we'll take whatever class can heal or tank, regardless of their gear'. At least it is fair. Many times pugs fail because the healers/tanks have no idea what they are doing, while the dps, who were screened carefully, were on the ball.
Jon Do Jun 17th 2009 1:19PM
If you click through to the screenshot, this is the text:
"Link epic and achiv"
First of all, that is a failure to 'achieve' basic grammar!
Second, it is probably just a 'fail' way of asking people to link your epics and achievements. That's how I would read/interpret it, anyway.
Kate Jun 17th 2009 2:35PM
I'd actually interpret that to mean "link me two things: 1. The "Epic" achievement and 2. "The Fall of Naxxramas" achievement", though my /2 trollspeak isn't as fluent as it used to be.
OldManGeorge Jun 17th 2009 1:22PM
That is why I truly enjoy Anvilmar server... where just last night someone was LFM in general chat... for Naxx 10... only requirement: "Please don't suck".