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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsRequiring epic achievements for normal runs
by Mike Schramm 
Jun 17th 2009 at 1:00PM
Leafshine echoes a concern I've heard a lot around the community and even here on WoW.com lately: why are some Naxx pickup group organizers requiring the epic achievement on characters joining the raid when they're only running Naxx 10? Sure, we'd all love to have raids full of epic characters, but when you consider that to even get that gear, you have to topple Naxx 25, it seems a little silly to require a raid full of characters that don't actually need the run you're going on.Then again, you could (and probably do) subscribe to the "free market" theory of PuGing: if you think that's silly, don't join that raid, and eventually people who want those requirements won't have anyone to run with (and if they do have people to run with, then apparently even those who have conquered Naxx 25 still want to go back and run 10, for fun or badges or offspec gear or whatever). But that does leave out people who really do need to (and can) run the instances -- just because you don't have a character full of gear from Naxx 25 doesn't mean you can't perform respectably in Naxx 10.
But people who PuG regularly can be pretty cynical, I'd imagine, and so most of them would rather be safe (and take people who are overgeared) than sorry (and stuck in a bad group with people who don't belong). All the more reason to find a solid guild, or at least make your reputation in a raiding group. It does seem a little out of whack to require higher achievements than the content you're raiding, but as long as people are still joining those raids, PuGers will keep requiring that level of gear.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Virtual selves, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 4 of 6)
Stephen Jun 17th 2009 1:49PM
"Pugs can be stupid" is not exactly a newsflash.
I've gotten so cynical about Pugs, I'll put people on /ignore if they whisper me "Can u heal naxx10? Just need heals and g2g."
WeirdJedi Jun 17th 2009 2:09PM
I think its fun to get a whisper "can you tank?" or "can you heal?" when you aren't even specced that way. I'll be running around Dalaran and someone will ask me if I want to come tank a boss in Naxxramas. I'm a ret paladin. People only give me ret gear. I can't just pop epic tanking gear out of thin air.
t0xic Jun 17th 2009 2:14PM
What chaps me is the word "quick". LF1M heals for quick H GDK run. As a healer "quick" is generally defined "under-geared dps with tank friend (below 535 defense) looking for over-geared healer to carry group QUICKLY through heroic" -- at least in my experience.
I even had one guy tell me he could "keep threat like it was his job". Well actually, as the tank, it IS your job. When I pressed the issue of whether he had 535 defense he said "I'm not prot spec". I dropped group immediately after that. Wearing plate does NOT make you a tank.
My other favorite pet peeve is when you see "LF2M tank and heals for quick heroic". That one gets me every time. As a healer I stay as far away from those pugs as possible. Granted it's just my experience, but these groups tend to be terribad.
This is all a round-about way of saying that I'm cynical about pugs, too. I guess I got a little wordy. Sorry.
Zoe Jun 17th 2009 3:53PM
The one that always gets me is 'LF Healer AN H at LAST BOSS!'
I've done it a few times just 'cause I wanted that last badge for some item, and everytime it's some tank who doesn't run away from the pound and gets 90% of his health knocked out of him.
I've made it a point to ask why somebody left and how they wiped when I get asked to help out in a heroic with a few bosses down.
David Whyld Jun 17th 2009 1:52PM
To be honest, having the achievement for clearing Naxx 25 doesn't necessarily mean that you have the skill to handle the place, merely that you were there with a group of people who *did* have the skill. On my main, I have the achievements for both Naxx 10 and 25, but on both occasions I did Kel'Thuzad I was the first person to die during both fights and so my contributions to those fights were a big fat zilch.
Stephen Jun 17th 2009 2:12PM
That's true. I subbed in my woefully undergeared pally alt, that had just hit level 80 the same weekend, to a guild Naxx-25 clear. I was still wearing almost all greens, didn't know my proper dps rotation, and just barely did more dps than the tanks.
Fayore Jun 17th 2009 1:59PM
I completely agree that the idea of wanted 'geared' players for naxx 10/25 or os10/25 is a silly idea.
I had an unbeleiveablly hard time getting into a raid on my DK alt. I had decent gear....all crafted and heroic epics, as well as the mirror of truth from badge.I also had the sword from argent tourny seals. The rest of my gear was either heroic, quest or crafted blues. I would try to remind people that I had better gear at that time then they did on thier mains going into those raids...but it didnt matter. The only way I could get a group was have them look up my main, who is 4/5 8.5 and cleared all content except yogg (not counting hard modes either).
An example of how silly it has gotten. The members of my guild that were not saved from the guild run got a partial pug of H VoA togather. I remember someone threatening to leave the group if i was not removed due to my gear. After we cleared VoA I linked the recount dps to him...the one that showed me in 'crap' gear beat him out on dps by about 1.2k, even though he was in his full naxx 25 gear.
I just wish people would remember that gear is not the end all be all. Things like knowing the fights, knowing your class and your skill can far and away make up for any gear shortcomings a toon may have.
Wulftracker Jun 17th 2009 2:03PM
and what of the people just getting high enough to finally run some of the bigger raids. Are they expected to know everything about the bosses, be fully geared and experienced?
"You haven't ever done the instance.. youre out."
you get that attitude as well from guys forming PuGs.
So asking for folks who have conquered it already.. kind of overkill.
elfennau Jun 17th 2009 2:11PM
"So asking for folks who have conquered it already.. kind of overkill."
This.
The problem is that everyone wants it easy, with as little effort as possible.
tutti Jun 20th 2009 4:13AM
I don't think they don't want to make the effort to learn the fights, I think they just don't want to go through the whole learning process every week with a new group...
TEJ Jun 17th 2009 2:19PM
So... QQ about terribads who are too terribad even to get carried at their own gear level?
Guild --> folks.
danawhitaker Jun 17th 2009 2:22PM
Heh. Yeah. A lot of the Naxx raids I see advertised on Hydraxis either say "gear checks" or the ever popular "must know the fight". Okay genius, tell me how I'm supposed to learn the fight if no one will take me in because I don't know the fight? Good raiders don't just magically metamorphose into that when they hit 80. They all go through the same process of trial and error on new content (no one cleared Ulduar in the first few weeks, now did they?) but then when they get to the point of being geared and recruiting people for runs they're arrogant enough to only want to include people who already know everything rather than being willing to help some new moderately-geared people learn the mechanics of the fight so that they can become good assets in raids.
I have little problem with gear checking, in so much as I usually use it as a criteria of people to keep an eye on - they might take a little more damage, or not do enough DPS, or may need to be replaced if they completely aren't working out. But I wouldn't use it as an exclusionary measure unless the gear was so far below par (I'm talking trying to walk into Naxx in gear below level 75-77 with no enchants and/or gems) that it's clear they don't even make an effort.
Remember, there are critical things that you can't know simply by looking at someone's armory page or wow-heroes analysis page. Like the fact that someone's on dial-up and gets disconnected frequently. Or that someone has kids and might have to randomly AFK with no notice mid-fight. Or the fact that someone might be a loot-ninjaing douchebag. The lack of gear and lack of knowing the fight can all be dealt with in advance to some degree. These other factors are completely beyond the control or knowledge of the raid leader and can as easily, if not more easily, lead to the wipe or abandonment of a raid in progress.
Heroic raid achievements are so dependent on what the other 24 people in your group feel like doing that using them as a standard of measure is pretty ridiculous. Whenever we're running heroic instances, there's always debate about whether to try for an achievement or not on bosses. Often the consensus is no because people aren't wiling to wipe on the attempt. People shouldn't be penalized for not having these achievements because the group they're with isn't willing to go for them.
So to the habitual gear and achievement and "know the fight" checkers, beware. You'll eventually lose a large base of people who will be willing to PUG with you because your standards are too high. By the time you realize this, most of them will be with other guilds and when your "leet" raiding guild falls apart for whatever reason, good luck finding room in another with your attitude.
turkeyspit Jun 17th 2009 2:50PM
LFM Naxx 25 != LFM to carry through Naxx 25
If you don't know how the fights work in Naxx 25, and can't take the 5 minutes it takes to look it up on the Interweb, then you don't deserve to walk into a Raid.
Stick to 5-mans.
Adrian Jun 17th 2009 4:04PM
The fact that all these other problems exist does not invalidate the idea that a PuG raid leader should check other things. While I personally feel that requiring Epic for any t7 content is absurd (I am not close to that and was 3rd on DPS in 25 OS +1 PuG last night on my pally), it is not unreasonable to do basic gear check or ask that the person has at least read about the fight on the internet. If you can't be bothered to read up on bosses, why would I think that you have bothered to learn how to play your class right?
If you really dont want to read about fights ahead of time, look for a guild that goes in to fights blind as part of their policy.
Swampsquatch Jun 17th 2009 4:17PM
@ danawhitaker
Your logic is so flawed I cannot stop "loling"
I knew all the fights in Naxx well before I hit 80 and did not ever run it in Vanilla WoW. Why? Because I took the time to look them up and watch strat videos online. They say, "must know fights." Then I say, "I wanna go, I know the fights." Done. They don't quiz me or ask to link achievements. Why? Because even if I don't have the achievements on the toon, maybe it is my alt and I do in fact know all the fights.
Also, it is GREAT they gear check. I don't want to get saved to a raid where people are in greens and trying to be carried through. It isn't some raid leader trying to be an elitist, they just don't want an 80 in the full crafted lvl 78 pvp set trying to run Naxx 10 (although I have seen people run it in that gear and do over the required DPS).
"So to the habitual gear and achievement and 'know the fight' checkers" WILL continue to get people in their raids because it shows they are semi competent in putting together a raid in the first place if they care about what players they are taking, not just the first 9/24 tells they get.
Naix Jun 17th 2009 4:23PM
Could not have put it better myself.
Janaa Jun 17th 2009 4:47PM
@Swampsquatch - That may have worked when you first hit 80. Nowadays, at least on my server, they don't care if they say you know the fight. They just want to see the heroic achievement - wether you're running 10 or 25 man. My alts have been denied dozens of raid slots, even though geared for that particular raid, even though i've done the fights 20 times over on my main, the alt doesn't have the achv, so the alt doesn't get to go. That's it.
dude Jun 17th 2009 2:40PM
LFM RFC know fights, full clear pst stats and achievement. Must be in at least Ulduar gear. Be patient will armory.
turkeyspit Jun 17th 2009 2:48PM
People should be grateful that Raids are actually puggable
Charlie Jun 17th 2009 2:50PM
Only reason i don't have the epic acheivement is because I have deathchill cloak, and I haven't gotten a good enough cloak from Ulduar yet.
So its kind of a silly thing to ask for.
Really the best thing to look for is peice of tier gear, I also like checking armory lite (i think it is) which totals up your ilvl points. I ussualy set a threshold of like 3.5k ilvl points for Ulduar pugs, works out generally well.