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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsRequiring epic achievements for normal runs
by Mike Schramm 
Jun 17th 2009 at 1:00PM
Leafshine echoes a concern I've heard a lot around the community and even here on WoW.com lately: why are some Naxx pickup group organizers requiring the epic achievement on characters joining the raid when they're only running Naxx 10? Sure, we'd all love to have raids full of epic characters, but when you consider that to even get that gear, you have to topple Naxx 25, it seems a little silly to require a raid full of characters that don't actually need the run you're going on.Then again, you could (and probably do) subscribe to the "free market" theory of PuGing: if you think that's silly, don't join that raid, and eventually people who want those requirements won't have anyone to run with (and if they do have people to run with, then apparently even those who have conquered Naxx 25 still want to go back and run 10, for fun or badges or offspec gear or whatever). But that does leave out people who really do need to (and can) run the instances -- just because you don't have a character full of gear from Naxx 25 doesn't mean you can't perform respectably in Naxx 10.
But people who PuG regularly can be pretty cynical, I'd imagine, and so most of them would rather be safe (and take people who are overgeared) than sorry (and stuck in a bad group with people who don't belong). All the more reason to find a solid guild, or at least make your reputation in a raiding group. It does seem a little out of whack to require higher achievements than the content you're raiding, but as long as people are still joining those raids, PuGers will keep requiring that level of gear.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Virtual selves, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 6 of 6)
Sleutel Jun 17th 2009 6:49PM
This is especially stupid if you, like me, are a Prot Warrior--pre-Ulduar, our BIS ranged weapon is... wait for it... an ilvl200 epic.
Kay Jun 17th 2009 7:05PM
Another note for the "epic achievement for naxx10 is required" group.
My dk is neck and neck top 2 dps in her naxx25/ulduar25 raid. She doesn't have the epic achievement.
Why?
There are 2 pieces for unholy dk that, pre-ulduar, are best slot items and come from Naxx10. I was never, ever, going to outbid someone on an item that was not an upgrade for me simply to get some silly, reward-less achievement.
Kukuena Jun 17th 2009 7:29PM
What gets me is the ones that LFM for OS 10 or 25 with ZERO drakes, and demand you link stats and achievements . . . . .
Pugs with half green gear can own this instant with a descent tank, yet they demand an achievement?? L O L at them.
BWJ Jun 17th 2009 8:21PM
This is why I'm not even bothering with the Heroic/raid game right now, there's too many silly games being played - and on top of that, ninja looters are rampant on my server.
This kind of stupidity started when they nerfed Kara in BC and added more badges, you could NOT get into a Kara pug without full Kara gear or better, because all of the runs were farm runs - and god forbid you wasted a single second. I remember casters complaining of being kicked for *drinking*, they were expected to run all of Kara with NO breaks for mana regen.
It always starts out kind of reasonable, but as usual, the WoW community takes it to a ridiculous degree. I've actually seen achievement/gear/dps checks for BC runs, as outrageously idiotic as that sounds. I'm waiting for "LFM Deadmines, must have achievement and D1, will check", because I know it'll happen.
If you are just hitting 80 right now and don't have a guild to take you, you will not see the end game, most likely. And, when the new dungeon/raid content comes with 3.2 and 3.3, Naxx and Ulduar will be left behind, and pugs for 3.0 and 3.1 content will be rare and require even higher gear levels. Just like in BC.
Yup. That's why I don't care about it. I'd rather have some fun, and level my alts, and make gold selling raid food and mats.
DanH Jun 18th 2009 6:07AM
I rather suspect that it won't be "must have achievement" for Deadmines but rather "must be lvl78+"
Oteo Jun 17th 2009 11:03PM
I can't see many situations in which someone would have requirements of PuG members--like the Epic achievement--that mean those people probably do NOT need to do Naxx 10 or 25, where the person setting up the raid also meets those requirements... 'cause if they also have the Epic achievement, why would they need to go to Naxx?
In this situation I can only conclude that at least some of these people with overly high expectations of PuG members, like that in order to join the raid you must effectively not need the loot, are doing so because THEY are undergeared and want no competition during rolls.
artifex Jun 18th 2009 12:57AM
I was in a pug a couple of weeks ago, think it was VoA 25, and while filling it the RL started demanding 3.5k dps in his spam to Dal. I whispered that I'd better leave, because I (the only lock) would only do 2.8k or so. He immediately said he was only "hoping" for better dps from the last people.
We probably should expect a lot more from our pug raid leaders, too.
araner Jun 18th 2009 4:08AM
Damn I really don't understand the whole achievement whine. It is raid leader's right to check people before accepting them into a PuG, and noone forces you to join. Achievement is the best, but not perfect way, to check a person's experience within the instance. Ever tried to make a PuG group for 25 man, or even 10 man raid? You know how hard is it to lead and you don't want to take people who will die at first void zone. Some raid leader's actually want to make group that will clear Naxx in 3 hours, not making a group that after 7 hours of raiding will decide to disband at 4h/Thadd. I've tried to make a PuG for OS10 0 drakes without asking people for achievement/gear. We've killed 2 drakes and people started to leave after wipe on 3rd drake, while I've pugged 3 drakes (zerg-mode) with a PuG too. People who don't have achievement and want to get into PuG are USUALLY just terribads who were able to find groups with people like themsleves which gave up at Anub'rekahn and want to get carried by 24/9 other people.
But ofcourse I will get downrated because on this site people downrate others' constructive comments just because someone got other opinion than you.
DanH Jun 18th 2009 6:26AM
I have some sympathy with your position but, as others have pointed out, frequently the people asking for specific achievements or gear levels do not match their own requirements. It's like when you see messages saying "LFG HoL lvl80 only" and find that it comes from a level 77 rogue.
I also have to wonder how the people who ask other people to link achievements got their own achievements in the first place, since apparently one is not qualified to run a raid until one has already run it. If they went in with their guild, why aren't they *still* doing guild runs, and if they went in in a PuG, then isn't it rather hypocritical to make demands of other people that were not made of them?
araner Jun 18th 2009 7:32AM
Ofcourse if raid leader requires achievement/epic gear for raid and doesn't have it himself, he's retarded. Same goes for "lfm 4 the horde 80 lvls only", "lfm sunwell achi run 80 lvls only" coming from 7x level. Requiring from others having more than you have yourself is just stupid. Also I think requiring the "Epic" achievement isn't good way to make groups, people can have full Ulduar25/hardmode gear and they'll still can miss 1 part because item with lower ilvl got better itemization, and people with this achievement can just have PvP gear (Deadly/WG items), swap their rings and trinkets, oor just get this achievement by wearing offspecc gear, or items to disenchant. Also requiring achievement for let's say Naxx25 for Naxx10 is imo ridicolous, same goes for "Twilight Zone" to get into OS 0d pug.
Brian Jun 18th 2009 10:54AM
Of course it's the raid leader's right to demand whatever entry requirements he likes, but that doesn't mean he's not stupid for demanding ridiculous requirements.
Now as several people have pointed out, there are perfectly valid reasons why a raid leader would want overgeared/overqualified people in his run, from farming emblems to speed runs to gearing up him or one of his friends in the raid. If someone in my guild was putting together a run like that, I'd gladly help them out. The problem is that it's silly to expect the same from people PUGing a raid in LFG. People are GENERALLY in LFG looking to run things to gear up, not because they are uber players with nothing better to do than help out in your run. If that's what you're looking for, there are plenty of guilds willing to do that kind of thing for their members.
That's not to say there should be NO requirements for PUGs, especially raids, but the discussion here seems to be about requirements above and beyond what's reasonable. Wanting to get people who will do more DPS than the tank or not stand in void zones is a lot different from asking for people who have MUCH better gear than is required for the instance.
DanH Jun 18th 2009 6:18AM
I have no problem with people requiring whatever gear, achievements, or stats they like for Pickup Groups.
I just think that anybody who requires people to have Naxx-25 achievements for a Naxx-10 run loses all right to complain about endgame being "dumbed down".
FlameFlash Jun 18th 2009 8:28AM
I see this all the time on Zangar.
I simply mock them for what they probably are: wanting an easy and badge run with no drama and a good amount of Abyss Shard rolling at the end.
Abyss Shards are Abyss Shards and if nobody can use the stuff then that's where it goes. And if the ML didn't say what would happen to it before hand they may just take all of them and run.
Also might be a way to have an alt carried if you're sneaky about it.
What's funnier are the calls for the [For the Alliance!] posts in trade chat that say only lvl 75+ can come but the person posting the call is only 71.
thottstation Jun 18th 2009 8:58AM
Haven't seen a single ad for VoA (post-WG win) that doesn't ask "PST class, stats & achievement".
crayzeigh Jun 18th 2009 10:33AM
Fortunately I have an active guild that generally runs a "Guild-Sponsored" PUG/Alt-Naxx on the weekends. We get people's under geared alts (and sometimes mains just for gold and K'T) and run a Naxx25 in a night. We usually end up with some pretty consistent puggies who will come multiple weeks straight. There's nothing like going from quest blues/greens to multiple epics in an evening. My Resto shaman gained about 5k mana and nearly 1000 spell power in a week. Carried? Yessir.
vorpalbunnie Jun 18th 2009 3:09PM
IMO, this is a drawback of achievements (and the armory as well). How can someone get in their first Naxx PUG if all PUGs are requiring Naxx achievements (normal or heroic)?
Remember when you couldn't look people up? You just had to deal with what you got. Personally, I liked that--for better or for worse. I find it more interesting and challenging.