How will they do the loot in Trial of the Crusader?
by Eliah Hecht 
Jun 19th 2009 at 11:00AM
For my money, the most interesting things they're doing in patch 3.2 are the changes to the badge system and the reimagining of the 10- vs. 25-man raiding paradigm. The new raid, Trial of the Crusader, will be available on both normal and heroic difficulty mode for both 10- and 25-man groups (the heroic mode is called Trial of the Grand Crusader). In other words, there are a total of four versions of the raid: 10-normal, 10-heroic, 25-normal, and 25-heroic. They're all on separate lockouts
Those of you who know certain past posts of mine could probably predict what my mind jumps to from that news: how will the loot be done? I see four three major possibilities.
- 10-normal and 25-normal drop the same gear, while 10-heroic and 25-heroic drop a tier above (10n = 25n < 10h = 25h).
- 10-normal drops one kind of gear, 10-heroic and 25-normal are equal to each other and better than that, and 25-heroic is best of all (10n < 10h = 25n < 25h).
- All four raids drop different levels of gear, 10n < 10h < 25n < 25h.
If you've read my past stuff, you could correctly guess that #1 would be my favorite option. I don't really want to argue it here (or in the comments), because I've had that conversation more than I care to already.
I'm more interested in trying to figure out what they're going to do than what they should do. We know that all four versions of the raid drop the new Emblems of Triumph, and I assume that there is going to be a tier 9 set contained in it (there are 5 bosses, the perfect amount to drop one tier piece each). I would guess that in order to avoid having to itemize four different tiers, the tier gear itself will either be the same across all four raids, or come in two versions - one for 10-man and one for 25-man.
In fact, thinking about the tier gear led me to what I think their solution will be. Think of the Heroic-mode instances as analogous to Ulduar hard modes. Uld-10 hard-mode gear is the same quality as Uld-25 normal, and I think the same relationship will hold here. This is #2 above, with the exception that tier 9.0 drops in both 10n and 10h, with tier 9.5 dropping in both 25n and 25h. It's a reasonable solution, and I'll be happy playing it.
The other variable here is that the Heroic mode will be in the form of a "tribute" run, with players having a limited number of "attempts" (which I think means "wipes") to try their might. The more left-over attempts they have when they down the last boss, the better loot they receive. So will we have a range of item levels in Trial of the Grand Crusader? It's too soon to say. Maybe we'll just get more loot if there are more attempts left, and not better loot. We shall see.
Are there any solutions I've missed, or any compelling reasons to believe they will or should do one or the other that I haven't seen yet? This isn't going to be open immediately on the PTR, so we'll have a little while to speculate.
Patch 3.2 will bring about a new 5, 10, and 25 man instance to WoW, and usher in a new 40-man battleground called the Isle of Conquest. WoW.com will have you covered every step of the way, from extensive PTR coverage through the official live release. Check out WoW.com's Guide to Patch 3.2 for all the latest!
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 6)
Jack Spicer Jun 19th 2009 11:07AM
I really hope we don't start seeing, "I have my t9.25 pants and my t9.75 helm".
Wyred Jun 19th 2009 11:47AM
If it's the loot model 10n < 10h = 25n < 25h that means 3 tiers of loot. This could potentially lead to "I have my T9.33333 pants, repeating of course."
LilBanshee Jun 19th 2009 11:48AM
Why not? Currently ilvl 219 gear is T8, ilvl 226 is T8.5, and ilvl 239 is essentially T8.75. If you include the ilvl 232 stuff from PvP, you've got four tiers of gear from the latest content patch. With raids now having heroic and non-heroic versions of 10-man and 25-man with hard modes, partial hard modes, and non-hard modes... it's silly to expect only 2 levels of gear to provide incentives for all of those combinations.
Really, there should be even more item levels of gear per content patch than there currently are. For example, if a boss has 3-4 progressively difficult hard modes, why doesn't each and every difficulty level drop higher item level gear? Sure, the developers don't have time to create four times as many possible drops, but they can follow the example of the TX, TX.5 pattern. So if a boss drops, say, a particular mail leg piece, then have 4 different ilvl versions of that same piece of gear he can drop depending on the degree of hard mode when he is killed. This increase in levels could allow a greater overlap of potential drops item levels between 10 and 25 man, while still allowing the only slightly superior best-in-slot gear to only drop from 25-man heroic hard modes.
baldbull Jul 8th 2009 1:22PM
Not every iLevel increment deserves a new Tier labeling. Think about all the iLevel's of gear at level 80....that'd be ridiculous.
Tier X gear should be limited to class-specific "sets" of gear which have bonuses for acquiring multiple pieces. By this token we currently only have Tier 7, 7.5, 8, and 8.5
Vladeon Jun 19th 2009 12:51PM
Or, you know, 10 man normal could drop t8.5 gear. 10h and 25n could drop t9 gear and 25h could drop t9.5. That seems like a much better guess than t9.3333... gear. Not to mention it would make sense so that players who've been running ulduar, but not 25man heroic ulduar, will be able to get some gear to compete in the new dungeon. Not saying I agree with it, but it seems likely and at the very least possible.
Jon Do Jun 19th 2009 1:18PM
Actually, the numbers that count in a four-raids-in-one design is that design and development cost will be reduced, so Activi-Blizz will be counting the dollars saved. Especially since the new emblem system will recycle heroics at virtually no development cost.
Sumanai Jun 19th 2009 11:17AM
as anyone confirmed that tier9 will drop in the new raid? with only a handful of bosses I just don't see it. higher iLevel items than Ulduar yes, tier9 not so sure.
btw, what's your 4th possibility? you only listed 3.
Sumanai Jun 19th 2009 11:11AM
"has anyone confirmed..."
typo. hold your horses grammar nazis! xD
Brendan Jun 19th 2009 11:12AM
^^^^
impurezero Jun 19th 2009 11:15AM
But nothing's capitalized! Fix your shift key? :D
Adam H. Jun 19th 2009 11:16AM
With the introduction of the Emblem of Triumph, it makes sense that they would introduce a new tier of gear or something to be purchased with those emblems. I think very likely it will be tier 9.
With one raid instance only 5 bosses long to gear up for Ice Crown, it will be interesting to see how quickly guilds will gear our that members.
Unless they're slam your face against the wall hard, which wouldn't be bad.
Eliah Hecht Jun 19th 2009 11:18AM
Little-known fact: I can't count.
impurezero Jun 19th 2009 11:19AM
But man can you dance!
Adam H. Jun 19th 2009 11:13AM
It makes sense that each of the 5 tier pieces would drop from each of the 5 bosses. So I'll agree with you there.
It's very confusing to see where there 9 or 9.5 pieces will drop, IF they even have that differentiation this time. They could drop it completely and just have a Tier 9. I doubt it though, but with the homogenization of gear/progression it's possible.
My guess is All "normal dungeons" drop Tier 9, all "heroic" drop Tier 9.5.
Now that the 5-Man is just another dungeon with both a normal/heroic version dropping emblems of conquest. I'm not so sure it'll be worth running unless it drops something else. 3 Bosses isn't much, a Heroic Nexus drops 5 Emblems and is much, much easier. Even an HVH would be quicker.
Although, I'll prob be running as many heroics a day as possible, since about 4 heroics is equivalent in badge drops to Naxx or Ulduar.
Now, I can also see hostility in PuGs growing though where your Tier8 guy is trying to farm emblems for his helm and my new 80 is going to heal for him =X. The gap will be interesting. Will Guilds be putting out formal 5 Man groups to run heroics now that it's basically part of progression into Tier9 gear.
Dharmabhum Jun 19th 2009 11:40AM
very good point adam. my biggest fear in this reworking is that you're going to have nub 80s in bad blues essentially looking for the same group as a T8 dude. i know there are situations where that is the case now, but the gap there will be troublesome for PuGs IMHO.
saregos Jun 19th 2009 12:13PM
Actually, if memory serves, the 5-man will drop Champion's Seals. Which will be a currency for heirloom gear, amongst other things... at least, that's what I think I remember reading.
dawnseven Jun 19th 2009 1:19PM
"my biggest fear in this reworking is that you're going to have nub 80s in bad blues essentially looking for the same group as a T8 dude"
I'm not calling you out here Adam, because you're not the only one (by far) that has said this, but I'm wondering. A lot of people started heroics on hitting 80 in bad blues as you say ( :D) and they did ok. A T8 dude in a heroic would outgear the instance and only be running it for the badges so do you really think this will be a problem? The only thing that will suck I think will be that people will want to do a quick inspection before going in to avoid those whack jobs that just have abysmal gear (like the spirit gemmed tanks and the people still wearing their Kara epics) but those people have to be avoided either way. I don't think this changes creates more of them.
jjcoola998 Jun 19th 2009 1:27PM
I lold, always love the spirit wearing tanks XD
Draelan Jun 19th 2009 1:54PM
Unfortunately, bad gear = bad player is a bit of a fallacy. It's entirely possible a player who's still wearing their lvl 70 Epics simply hasn't stumbled across the quests that give better gear. Heck, they could be an awesome player. Or, when you inspect them, they may currently be in their off-spec gear. (My druid's Balance spec gear was downright ABYSMAL when I hit 80.) Not saying you're entirely wrong about keeping an eye on what gear your potential group mates are wearing (Hunter with strength gear = FAIL. Plain and simple.) just that it's not always a clear indication of skill.
And then there's the people who are geared well enough, but simply fail at their class. I still remember that Shaman I met who didn't use totems because he was "like a rogue that wears mail", and then he proceeded to get himself killed in the instance by aggroing the mobs my warlock was easily able to get past. (With Voidwalker at my side, doubling the width of my aggro radius. =P ) Some "rogue".
Zach Jun 19th 2009 2:06PM
This is a recurring issue on the forums too, but I'll say it again here:
You cannot get geared out in ilvl 226 gear by running heroics!
You can get what? 6 pieces of gear from Conquests? (legs, hands, waist, neck, and 2 pieces of T8). That isn't even half of all the slots you need to fill to be ready for the Coliseum. People will still have to run Ulduar to get their other gear, not to mention weapons. All this change does is lessen the gearing-up grind needed to catch up to current progression; it's mainly a benefit designed for new 80s / alts. If you're farming heroics for Conquests when 3.2 hits then you're already behind the curve and might as well be running with new 80s anyway.
On a side note: I'm really interested to see how (or if) Blizzard can keep 5 bosses interesting until we hit Icecrown Citadel (I, unlike many, don't doubt that they can). : )