Scattered Shots: Climbing Hunter talent trees
Welcome to Scattered Shots. I am Eddie "Brigwyn" Carrington from The Hunting Lodge and I'll be your tour guide each Thursday as we explore what makes our Hunters tick and how we can make them better.I've read comments here, over on the Official Forums, and other Hunter blogs and forums saying how Blizzard is forcing Hunters to spec either as Survival or Marksmanship. I always find this a hard argument to support, especially since it is Blizzard that has continued to give us three different talent trees that we can spec into. But as always, there seems to be a preferred talent spec.
To me the blame isn't Blizzard but us Hunters always looking to squeeze out every ounce of DPS out of our class and remain on top of the damage meters. (Go ahead let the flames begin, but hopefully you'll give me a chance here.) We go out of our way looking, experimenting, and testing different build combinations to find the one magic build that gives us top DPS. Once we have found that, we tend to forget that we really can play all three builds. No, they all won't perform the same. And if you are in a progressive, hardcore, min/max raiding guild, well then stick with the spec-du-jour. But if you are like the majority of the players out there, you probably want to play something that better fits your play style. Like Goldilocks and the Three Bears, it has to fit just right.
So let's look at the different Talent Trees, discuss a bit about what makes each one tick. Then look at the currently recommended builds and shot rotations for each spec.
Marksmanship
Let's first look at the current leader of the DPS race and for many the preferred raiding spec, Marksmanship.
I like to think of the Marksmanship Hunter as the epitome of the Sharpshooter, one might even say the William Tell or Robin Hood of the Hunter specs. (I'd use Sniper but that talent is over in the Survival tree.) The can sit back and with their weapon of choice and unleash a barrage of damaging shots from a distance.
The Marksman Hunter has a casual relationship with their pet. Unlike the pure partnership bond exhibited by the Beast Mastery Hunter you will see that the Marksman Hunter relies less on their pet and more on their own ability to achieve higher numbers.
One thing you need to consider as you raid as Marks is threat management. Because of the higher Crit and damage bursts done by Marksmanship you might out aggro your Tank. So make sure you keep an eye on your threat meter or use an add-on like Omen.
So what spec should you use? There seems to be three recommended builds depending on your hit rating, raid composition, or play style.
7/57/7 Elitist Jerks Highest DPS Build –
This talent build will give you the opportunity to achieve the highest possible DPS as a Hunter. Just understand that you will never reach the full potential of this build unless you have all of the recommended buffs.
Another requirement of this spec is to use the correct shot priority.
7/57/7 Marksman Build –
This is an optional spec recommended by Rilgon of Stabilized Effort Scope to the one by Elitist Jerks. Its major difference between this spec and the EJ one is where a few talent points are located. It moves the 2 points from Endurance Training, and puts it into Focused Fire instead. There are a few other tweaks also that allow you to not be so dependent on specific raid buffs.
7/57/7 Focused Aim Build –
If you like the above spec, but find yourself shy of the Hit cap, then you might want to try this optional spec. It uses 3 points into Focused Aim to help get you capped.
For these specs, the following shot priority would be recommended. The only addition might be using Silencing Shot when it is available.
- Serpent Sting
- Kill Shot
- Chimera Shot
- Aimed Shot
- Arcane Shot
- Steady Shot
This is probably the closest thing to a red-headed stepchild spec that Hunters have. Until the release of Wrath of the Lich King it was often maligned. It has recently earned respect for not only providing utility with Hunting Party, but as a bona fide DPS spec thanks to the combination of Lock and Load and Explosive Shot.
Back in my day, Survival was the "Melee Hunter" spec. Thanks to talents like Savage Strikes, Deflection, and Counter Attack you could actually go toe-to-toe with mobs and not feel overwhelmed. Add to those talents like Surefooted, Trap Mastery and now Scatter Shot you can actually "survive" a close quarters fight.
Survival is extremely dependent upon the Hunter's ability to maximize their burst damage potential. Because of this requirement, Survival Hunters have often been considered some of the most knowledgeable Hunters in the game. (No disrespect to Marksman or Beast Mastery Hunters intended.)
Like the Marksman, Survival Hunters tend to pull aggro and will also need to keep close tabs on their threat.
Some recommended builds are:
6/14/51 Elitist Jerks Highest Survival DPS Build –
As with all of the "Best" DPS specs, you are very dependent upon the rest of your raid party being able to give you the correct buffs.
- Kill Shot
- Explosive Shot
- Black Arrow
- Serpent Sting
- Multi-Shot
- Steady Shot
This spec was originally recommended in Xumio's Survival Guide (Disclaimer: Xumio's guide is hosted at The Hunting Lodge.) when 3.1 was released. Many Hunters still use this spec, attesting to its viability.
If you go with this spec you will want to make sure to use the recommended shot priority as well.
- Kill Shot
- Black Arrow
- Explosive Shot
- Aimed Shot/Multi-Shot
- Serpent Sting
- Steady Shot
If you are a Beast Mastery Hunter you are now feeling the let down of being at the bottom of the DPS pile. After riding high during Burning Crusade, BM Hunters are facing the same criticism and scorn that Marksman and Survival faced previously.
This close relationship that Beast Mastery Hunter's have with their pets is what brings out the dedication to this spec for many Hunters. Many Hunters feel as passionately about their pets as some feel about having peanut butter on their pancakes. There is also a lot of versatility available to the player. Beast Mastery is the one spec that you can tune to go out and farm with your favorite Tenacity pet. Then switch a few points here and there, grab your Wolf and hit the raids and still do a respectable DPS. By some accounts only about 800-900 less than Survival and about 1,200-1,300 less DPS than the highest reported Marksman build. Granted, that is enough for the min/max raider to discount the spec, but not enough to throw it away if you're part of good casual guild or group of friends.
If you decide to go ahead and play as a Beast Mastery Hunter you might want to consider these builds.
54/12/5 Best DPS Build –
This build is recommended as the highest possible Beast Mastery DPS Build. One critical thing to notice here is that the 51st talent (Beast Mastery) is included. In order for this build to be effective you need to make sure and buff your Ferocity Pet attacks to include Shark Attack and Wild Hunt.
Just like Marksman and Survival, Beast Mastery now has its own shot priority as well. Gone are the days of the Steady Shot Macro.
- Kill Shot
- Multi-Shot
- Arcane Shot
- Serpent Sting
- Steady Shot
I find this build interesting on a couple of points. One, it highlights using Aspect of the Monkey for kiting. If you are like me you might decide to move this over to Endurance Training.
The recommended shot priority for this build would be:
- Kill Shot
- Arcane Shot
- Multi-shot/Aimed Shot (optional)
- Serpent Sting
- Steady Shot
So you want to be a Hunter, eh? Well then you came to the right place. Scattered Shots is the one column dedicated to helping you learn everything it takes to be a Hunter. Each week Scattered Shots will cover topics to help you Fix Your DPS, Choosing the Right Spec, Gear Selection, Macros and Pet Selection and Management.Filed under: Hunter, Analysis / Opinion, How-tos, Raiding, Guides, Classes, Talents, (Hunter) Scattered Shots
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 3)
Ringo Flinthammer Jul 2nd 2009 4:23PM
If you feel like you're being "forced" into any spec, despite your favorite still being competitive (and if it's not, sorry, but that is a valid complaint), stop pugging or find someone better to raid with.
I cleared all the content but Sunwell in TBC as a Marksman and we're currently chewing through Ulduar hardmodes with a mix of Survival and Marksman hunters. (I don't think anyone was ever BM, but that's due to temperament -- I don't recall seeing them even in TBC.)
In my experience, folks who are getting turned down for raids or guilds over their specs are mostly just focusing on that, when there's a more comprehensive set of problems. After all, there are plenty of people who are happy to slavishly follow the EJ templates and still can't get into top raiding guilds, etc.
Gimmlette Jul 2nd 2009 4:28PM
@ Candina. Sorry, you have no access to your exotic pets, nor can you use them until you respect BM. Only hunters with Beast Mastery maxed at 51 can tame and use exotic pets. Blizzard's rule. As I said in a comment in a previous thread, the max dps pet is the devilsaur (not my info, although I did do test dummies to verify this. I believe it's EJ who printed it first.) but the max dps, SV cannot tame or use them.
"If you decide to go ahead and play as a Beast Mastery Hunter you might want to consider these builds." I'm sorry, but what kind of sentence is this? The choice of words seems to imply that you're not very smart or worse to spec BM. I have tweaked my BM spec to where I like it and it fits how I play. Every week, someone in the guild asks when I'm going to dual spec. Dual spec to what? I'm not going SV. I'm not going MM. I have what works for me.
The one thing I recommend to the BM hunters in my guild who don't want to respec, crunch the numbers on gear. Decide what your goal is and build your gear/enchants/gems toward that goal.
My ultimate goal is to be hit capped via gear. I don't want to miss anything (other than the game-induced built-in misses) including endgame bosses. Figuring all this out to create a "shopping list" with gear, gems and enchants was very difficult and finally, a guild member had to help me. I'm half-way there. Do it WITHOUT the end game raids, just the heroics, rep and crafted items. Then, when you run the endgame and something drops, it can become gravy to your gear. I had to run the numbers again when Arrowsong dropped and, as I add endgame gear, I'll have to run the numbers again.
What this is going to mean for me is that I can then buff, via food or potions AP, Agility, Stamina and Crit, in that order. For me, I'm not worried about whether my miss ratio is too high because I know I'm hit capped. I can concentrate on doing the other things I do very well, running down the fleeing mob, freezing the mobs attacking the healers, popping Bestial Wrath at just the right time.
uc3 Jul 6th 2009 8:22PM
There will always be the dps winner spec the utility winner spec and the also ran(s), and any patch can change that. It was BM as it was something else before that. While BM is not top raid dps, it seems to be significantly better for soloing content be it old raids, or elites. I did a comparison you know those elites that hang out on the wall by the daily (Drag and Drop) no surprise as SV I was able to handle them with only some of the tricks coming out, mostly to do with threat and keeping the pet up (bear). As BM it took a little longer but the fight was trivial with mend pets ticking for nearly 2500 and a bear spec almost completely for mitigation. On an onixia solo in the thows of FD getting healed by spiritbond while the bear takes care of her and the welps made my lock friends greener with envy, the pet got down to 40% for a short time, but spent most of the fight near full health.
Maybe not raid dop dps, but very useful and well worthy of a secondary spec slot.
M Jul 2nd 2009 4:46PM
Both an 0/15/56 (for replenishment) and 0/18/53 (for Hunter's Mark) are superior to 0/14/57 in multiple ways. The only possibility I can think of to make 0/14/57 better is if there are multiple adds that are tanked near the boss for Multi-Shot.
The 6/14/51 IAotH spec is nice, and has high numbers on paper, but if you have to move a lot (Ulduar), it's a much weaker spec. It's great for Naxx though.
0/15/56 :: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#cZ0eVooZx0ci0cIhedAhsd
0/18/53 :: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#cZ0eAooZx0ci0cIhedihsz
(Explosive Shot, Kill Shot, and Serpent Sting glyphs)
swampsquatch Jul 2nd 2009 5:06PM
I wish everyone would stop dogging BM. My primary spec is BM for raiding with MM secondary if there is a fight that is very unfriendly to my pet. I keep up with (and sometimes out dps) SV Hunters and MM hunters that out gear me and have the screen shots to prove it. I sometimes feel like a guy on an infomercial with a miracle product that everyone thinks is too good to be true. So instead of buying the product and testing it out, they write it off.
Before I get downrated, I did conform to SV and MM and test them out extensively. Still happy with BM.
And to Brigwyn, not trying to flame you at all, but I have a real problem saying SV hunters are some of the most knowledgeable. Every hunter and their brother is spec'd SV now so being that the vast majority of hunters are SV now, I think it is theoretically impossible to say they are some of the most knowledgeable. I am sure a lot of them just spec'd the cookie cutter because everyone told them to. Now maybe if you were spec'd SV and were a badass in vanilla WoW that deserves respect.
t0xic Jul 2nd 2009 5:08PM
Any advice on gearing? I'm leveling fast (currently 56). I looked at a lot of the epic gear @ level 80 and it seems to have a combination of stam/agi/int. I can't find mail gear with those stats to save my life. The best I can do is leather gear with either stam/int or stam/agi (of the falon, of the monkey). I have a max level BS and a max level LW. Should I even bother with crafting gear before 80?
I've leveled 5 other classes to 80 and never had this much trouble getting the right stats. If I leave Hawk on for more than 10 seconds I run OOM. Is that just how BM is or should I be chain chugging water like a mage? I absolutely hate gimping my dps with Viper, but more times than not that's what I do (and seem to always have 100% mana). Is there a way to get to around 50% available mana with more dps? I just can't standing using a GCD when I'm in the middle of a rotation to switch aspects. I'd appreciate any advice on gearing or strategies while leveling.
Thanks.
Frank Jul 2nd 2009 8:04PM
Others who know better can correct me if I am wrong but changing aspects has it's own 1 second cool down and does not affect the Global. If you find yourself forgetting to switch off Aspect of the Viper there are add ons like Viperwatch that will remind you.
CavalierX Jul 2nd 2009 5:25PM
I don't see how Blizzard is "forcing" anyone to do anything. My main character has been a Beastmaster Hunter since level 10 and will always remain one., Why? Because it's a role-playing game, and that's the character I chose to play. If I wanted to run a Marksman Hunter I'd have created one of them. (Well, I did just that later, on a different server.)
Hairfish Jul 2nd 2009 6:02PM
WoW *was* a roleplaying game. Now it's a math game. Bleah.
Tzivya Jul 2nd 2009 8:11PM
I'm dual spec BM and SV. When we're having a good night and everyone is on their game, I can break out the spirit beast and enjoy playing BM. But when we've some people who are new or not as talented, I stick to SV where I can pump out the most damage in the raid. I haven't tried MM yet, at least not since vanilla, as my guild has a couple of those already and its nice to be a little different.
I admit it, I like to be high on the damage meters. Killing things is what I do, and I want to do it well. I can handle being in the top 3 as sv, or the 9-12 range as bm... Sometimes. But if we are wiping a lot and I am in BM, I will switch because I don't want to even remotely feel like I'm holding us back.
trypr Jul 3rd 2009 9:59AM
I think this article is being specious about the real difference between dps specs. Granted min/maxing is not necessary to enjoy or even complete the general content, the difference between BM and MM/Surv dps at t 7.5/8 levels is very noticeable. As a capable and experienced player in a casual 10 man setting, I can gain a fairly consistent 25% increase in my dps output by switching specs from BM to Survival, on boss fights: from 3.2k-3.5k to in excess of 4.2k dps.
As highlighted by players, before the initial raft of WotLK BM nerfs (later reverted) pet scaling with static AP buff values artificially inflated the scaling of the spec for low gear options. Should BM be a low gear spec? I don't think so. Clearly we're going to have to wait and see as Blizzard advance their pet scaling plan, before they make any serious interventions.
I'd also like to point out that associating "BM hunters" with MM/Survival denigration during TBC is disingenuous. The fact is that the majority of BM hunters in TBC were BM because they wanted to min/max. In classic WoW BM had received similar treatment from players of the MM/Survival spec, who were also driven by min/maxing.
If there is something that marks out BM hunters who are not FotM rerolls it's a love of their pets: everything else is pretty incidental. We'd like the spec to be interesting and viable and have the group celebrating our companion, who we're attached to in a sentimental fashion. Back in classic wow it actually was that, but extremely hard to play because it required excellent pet control, a good deal of theorycraft and positional awareness. It's dps output was extremely competitive if you could keep the pet alive and attacking: I topped dps charts in BWL and was BM spec at a server first Cthun kill, all I assure you on merit. Even if you were not BM it was perfectly possible to have your pet alive and assisting you on most boss fights, with just a modicum of awareness; it's a sign of the social disinformation/a certain type of player that so many did not even bother trying to themselves.
All BM needed in TBC to make it a good spec was to make it more accessible through making the pet easier to keep alive and Blizzard completely jumped the shark by doing just that (making Mend pet insta cast on top of AoE mitigation and select immunities was actually ott imo) and also giving the spec perhaps the most insanely overpowered talent in the game: Serpent's Swiftness. It led to the state of affairs in TBC and I said as much in Beta, for what it's worth.
The social climate for hunters was, somewhat unfairly, poor back then (classic/TBC): really ever since the early pet pathing issues, "hunter weapon" syndrome, lack of clear group synergy, unreliable CC, variety of tools that could easily make or break fights and extremely weak pre 1.7 raid dps (epitomised by the tranq shot gimmic fix). Consequently, a number of hunter players turned towards finding ways to slam players of their own class, in an elitist fashion, by way of distancing themselves from the generally hostile climate: "90% hunters are bad" ...but not me.
Most genuine BM spec fans that I have come across tended to support improvements to the other specs, because they had just been in exactly the same position, socially, for classic wow; finding it almost impossible to raid without any form of community support.
I have been a deep BM hunter since patch 1.7 and it remains my favourite spec not because of how it plays, and I like a challenge, but because of what it is about. Having said all that, I raid as Survival in Ulduar10 because I am a team player and the spec is far more powerful and brings greater utility to the group as well, in a way I could not even compensate for as in classic wow. It's a decently fun spec, but I don't see why I shouldn't also be able to have a powerful pet and an effective and interesting playstyle as an option too.
Kheldul Jul 3rd 2009 12:54PM
Um. Two of your touted MM specs have points in Focused Aim?? Maybe for a super-specific gear set, but come-on. Ulduar gear has tons of +hit. And your first MM puts points into Endurance instead of Focused Fire?? I think someone played a joke on you.
suinimtao Jul 7th 2009 9:17AM
SV for raiding, BM for soloing/farming. I managed to tame a spirit beast the other night and I'm pretty sure he won't be seeing the inside of Ulduar for quite some time. Pet survivability in these boss fights requires alot of micro management, time which could be spent pew-pewing and even then your dps still isn't going to be on par with BM or MM. This wouldn't bother me so much but there seems to be no other area BM performs highly in at end-game content, its pretty much only good for grinding. I want to show off my shiny new spirit beast, and I want to use him. At the moment the 51st point in the BM talent tree essentially gets you a vanity pet.
paul Jul 8th 2009 3:47PM
@suinimtao: Lies. My spirit beasts accompany me regularly :)
paul Jul 8th 2009 3:40PM
I've been BM almost the entire time I've played my hunter, I top DPS charts in raids and molest in BGs. BM is still an awesome spec, when played properly.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Lethon&n=Hesson&group=1
Bullseyed Aug 3rd 2009 5:10PM
People need to stop parroting GC's lie that SV was never good until WotLK. Every good guild in TBC had a SV hunter. If your guild didn't, you were in a bad guild. End of story. We used to have a 66% 33% breakdown between BM and SV, and MM was PVP only. The system was much better than WotLK so far.
Now different fights have different 'best' specs, and if you actually want to do your potential dps, you'd need to respec for every fight. Yes, there are fights were BM is best. Find out why Ensidia uses BM hunters on Yogg. (Hint: any guild but Ensidia would probably get banned, but Ensidia is allowed to exploit.)