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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsSWAPS loot system offers another DKP option
by Mike Schramm 
Jul 9th 2009 at 1:00PM
I'm finding myself really fascinated with loot systems lately -- the old DKP is pretty good, but even that has drama, and it seems like there's a lot of interesting ideas going around about how to evenly and fairly distribute loot amongst a group of people. OutDPS has a writeup about a loot system called SWAPS. Instead of sending "points" off into the void, you actually "give" your spent points to everyone else in the raid. You start out with 1,000 free points (though those are distributed over time, to prevent new players from having tons of points early on) and then when an item comes up, everyone bids on it: the highest bid gets the item and the points they bid are spread around to the rest of the raiders. In other words, if someone in a 10-man raid bids 500 points and wins an item, those 500 points are distributed evenly amongst the other nine raiders. While the winner loses the 500 points they spent, everyone else gets a bonus 56 points. The person winning the item "pays" for the privilege of taking it by beefing up everyone else's point totals.It is probably not a perfect system (there's no way to reward points for anything other than loot dropping, for one thing, and while some people have modified the rules to create a separate bidding pool for class items, the basic system doesn't cover class or offspec items), but it does solve a lot of the questions of fairness, and it keeps everything pretty above-board: if you are low on points, the only reason would be that either you just started raiding, or that you've just spent a lot of points on an item. There's an addon, of course, and it will give you all sorts of reports and updates on where all of your raiders are at in the system. If you've been poking around for a DKP system that is based on being open and fair, it might be worth trying out in your guild.
Filed under: Items, Analysis / Opinion, Tips, Guilds, Add-Ons, Instances, Bosses
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 4)
Tridus Jul 9th 2009 1:20PM
If you're using a bid system, inflation tends to be self correcting. What you find is that after all those wipes when everyone has a lot of DKP and the shiny new item 15 people want drops, it goes for a LOT.
Prices come down as items drop more often, but the high demand items turn expensive and drain off the inflated DKP.
Klatz Jul 9th 2009 1:23PM
oops I meant spend-all instead of zero-sum. As someone mentioned SWAPs is basically zero-sum.
Blake Jul 9th 2009 1:31PM
How do you see there being inflation in EP/GP? The whole point of a set decay factor renders any perceived inflation moot. If someone saves their points week to week and never takes loot, they are top in EP, but with a BaseGP and decay, just one item will bring them back down to earth. We're currently using EP/GP in Ulduar 25 and it's working really well.
Klatz Jul 9th 2009 1:34PM
While bidding for high value items does end up costing people significant fractions of their points, the overall reduction would tend to be pretty uneven. You would have to have high sample size of raids to have enough high value items dropping to equalize the points for people. And that's not to mention the effect of farm raids, for geared people they are just going to bank most points since they don't need most of the items.
The blanket penalty over time that EPGP helps with inflation and does so evenly. Depending on bid systems to do so could lead to unusual point distributionsd and wouldn't (on the sample size of raids that most guilds have) reduce inflation well. Bidding systems have the problems of figuring out the market value of items. And people can play meta-games with it, depending on the nature of the bids (ie open).
Klatz Jul 9th 2009 1:39PM
We use EPGP and we've already had to up the inflation rate once since I joined the guild 6 months ago. Long time members had built up enormous points from farming Naxx for months. People who joined recently where feeling like they had no shot at gear, even after vets had won multiple items. Over time the issue would solve itself, but with the prospect of unhappy and discouraged initiates. So you still have issues and a manual correction is sometimes needed.
Falcom Jul 9th 2009 1:25PM
I still prefer to good old /roll combined with the "don't be a dick" system.
Kathoes Jul 9th 2009 1:27PM
My guild is a hardmode guild and we just /roll
Laudrim Jul 9th 2009 1:27PM
So, how is zero-sum in any way new or original?
Fiordhraoi Jul 9th 2009 1:35PM
For those saying "Oh, how is this new, it's just zero sum?"
Yes, it's zero sum, plus a vesting system, a class points system, an arbitrary rewards system in the form of "free spins," etc.
And no, it's not new. SWAPS is a zero-sum system that was developed back when Molten Core was the pinnacle of raiding.
outdps Jul 9th 2009 1:36PM
We still get messages about the "41st man" saving the leftover points :)
Fiordhraoi Jul 9th 2009 1:30PM
The incentive to being there for progression kills is that is where the large bids normally take place. Loot from farm bosses tends to go for minimum bid quite often, unless something that's never dropped before and is hotly contest drops. Loot from new bosses frequently goes for 5 to 10 times the minimum bid or more, leading to huge boosts to your pool if you're raiding that night.
One of the reasons this works well for us, however, is also that we're not an internally "competitive" guild for the most part. We keep our membership low enough so that we'll only have a few people sitting out based on who could make it that night. If we had a lot more competition for raid slots, such issues might come into play.
Drew Jul 9th 2009 1:37PM
The big downside I see to this is that other bidders could increase the price deliberately so they'd get more return when the person who really wants it overpays.
xarran Jul 9th 2009 3:20PM
The factor that keeps this behavior in check is that there is no requirement for someone else to outbid you if you are trying to inflate the price, for example if you bid an item up to 50 points hoping someone will go to 100, you could end up getting an extra share of those points, or you could be out 50 points. it is a calculated risk, so raises usually only occur when the item in question is useful to both parties
Jack Jul 9th 2009 1:46PM
We have been using almost exactly this zero-sum system for a while, with the usual tweaks that happens in any Guild. As mentioned above, we have a Minimum Bid set at the size of the Raid (10 or 25). We also added a small amount of Learning DKP for those nights on a new boss. As soon as they are down the learning stops and the BIG bids for the new gear take over. We also have a single round of hidden bids to a Loot Master so there is no bid inflation. You don't know how much the other guy wants it until the bids are done.
We have found it works very well.
Hex06 Jul 9th 2009 1:48PM
Do any guilds use just a standard Mainspec>Offspec type deal anymore?
The way my guild currently runs is Mainspecs roll, no mainspecs then off specs roll and if neither we shard it. Also, 1 token piece per run and generally 1 piece per boss.
I am guessing because i am in a kind of smaller guild is why this works, i just don't see the appeal in using a points systems where after you down a boss you spend 15 minutes sitting around bidding on gear.
Tridus Jul 9th 2009 1:52PM
We use something like that for 10 mans and old content (ie: naxx). For Ulduar 25 hard modes? Not so much. Someone who hasn't won anything for 2 months really dislikes losing rolls to the new guy who got 4 items last week.
Amaxe Jul 9th 2009 2:17PM
We do something similar: If you're needing you /roll. If you're Greeding, you /roll 1000
Our rule is one need, one tier, unlimited greed
Need wins over a greed. Once you won a need roll, that's the only need roll you can make that night (the next night we reset). Likewise for the tier roll. If you lose the need/tier roll, you can try again the next time something you want drops.
If you greed, you will only get it if nobody rolls need.
So you have to make choices: Do I want to roll need on this item I sort of want and then be forced to roll greed on an item that might drop later if I win it? Or do I roll greed and risk losing it to someone who rolls need or just not having the other item I want drop?
Of course The RNG I think is what makes all loot systems so frustrating, even if everyone is 100% honest.
BillDoor Jul 9th 2009 1:48PM
My guild uses /random and asks people not to be jerks about rolling on stuff if they've already gotten something. We never spend more than 30 seconds on loot before moving on to the next boss. I can't recall the last time there was loot drama. It's fantastic.
Blake Jul 9th 2009 3:33PM
Yes, I love the random rolls - I mean who doesn't like seeing a one-week fill in get Tier 8.5 gear when you've been running for months straight. Or getting that Betrayer when all the other tanks and DKs have been waiting for it to drop for ages. Yes, /roll really seems to be a fair and equitable practice.
Karilyn Jul 9th 2009 5:34PM
@Blake
Hince the "Not being a jerk part"
Loot whores will be loot whores. Do you really want those sorta people in your guild?