What If We Lost: An argument for losing a major lore-based battle
Warning: This article does contain spoilers for the Argent Coliseum Raid. If you want to be surprised, skip this article!There's a pretty long thread going on in the General Forums right now that makes an interesting request of the dev team: Let us lose. The argument goes that we've been sort of steamrolling our way through massive challenges and insurmountable odds pretty much the whole raid game, and it's just getting boring. Nothing feels like a threat anymore. We know we're going to defeat it and move on. We need to shake things up.
The more I think about it, the more I like it. Why not let us be on the losing side, at least for a few patches? The Lich King himself could use a bit of help in that vein, for sure. The early leveling game did manage to conjure up a few heart-stopping moments where Arthas "let us win," but when it was time to take that to the next level, it seems like Blizzard's sort of backed off and gone stale. Now, we're holding a Ren Faire on his front lawn while his scourge mostly mills around aimlessly and doesn't make more than a token attempt to do anything threatening.
There would be no quicker way to get him to burst back on the scene by having him or one of his lieutenants deal us a devastating blow, one which we will find it hard to recover from.
I've been saying for a while that Tirion may need to be taken down a notch. The Argent Crusade wouldn't have even made it this far into Icecrown if it wasn't for the Ebon Blade doing much of their dirty work, and this plan to defeat the Scourge by killing off all the weak Horde and Alliance in elaborately staged gladiator matches in an coliseum built by goblins out of salvaged and plundered stone and wood stolen from benevolent spirits is starting to look pretty silly.
All of this leads to a pretty stale atmosphere, unlike in, say, Patch 2.4, where the Isle of Quel'danas featured a strong, dedicated army of Blood Elves constantly besieging our base by air and ground, and urgent quests that all very clearly had something to do with weakening the forces of Kael'thas and the Burning Legion. We very desperately need something to shake the tournament up.
So what if, in Patch 3.2, the Anub'arak fight becomes a complete rout? I mean, it is certainly bad enough that the Coliseum was collapsed by a Scourge General and all, but let's take it one step further. Let us lose. Near the end of the battle, when Anub'Arak is near death, let him "gather permafrost" or something to strengthen his chitin and become invulnerable, then let him do some sort of mega web spray move that leaves everyone immobilized. Then he'll give a short speech about how we must give up and join the Scourge, that he's living proof that resistance is futile, and so on and so forth. Then, perhaps he'll say his work is done and leave, telling you to think about why you are fighting against such impossible odds. If you want to take some edge off, Tirion can come and drive him off with Ashbringer (though even in retreat, Anub'Arak will be gloating about that whole only delaying the inevitable thing).
From there, Jaina comes and teleport the raid up to the floor of the Arena again, where we find that everything is devastated. Bodies of Frost Wryms and Ghouls and Abominations lie strewn about, but the bodies of slain Horde and Alliance soldiers and Argent Crusade and Ebon Blade knights far outnumber those, and the Coliseum is beginning to crumble from the battle damage. Tirion offers us a chest of rewards, but it's already clear that's cold comfort for the damage done.
In the meantime, Varian, Garrosh, and Darion, all of whom have already taken at least some issue with Tirion's methods in Icecrown, will come up to offer their own opinions on the complete failure of the Argent Tournament, the loss of so many good soldiers of their respective factions, and the complete failure thus far of the offensive against the Lich King.
This opens up so much excitement and potential for future patches. The Alliance and Horde now have more fuel for infighting, since they have one more instance they can point to where "working together" only bought destruction. The Ebon Blade and the Argent Crusade will have tense relations as their disagreement on how to fight Arthas is suddenly thrown into sharp relief.
And above it all, Arthas himself looks calculating, sinister, and powerful again. He's actively thrown his enemies into disarray with some well placed mind games, having waited while they stagnated at the Argent Coliseum, then struck at the opportune moment with a foe they thought they had vanquished. He's made them confused and dismayed, inflaming the already barely controlled conflicts between them and softening them for the final blow.
Of course, the plot for Patch 3.2 is probably pretty finalized regardless, but I did want to sketch out how losing could create a sense of urgency and allow for so many interesting new paths for lore and story to follow. I think a lot of people get a secret thrill from being the underdog, and we've lost that feeling because of our nearly uninterrupted string of clear victories at the end game level. Let us lose so we can feel threatened, and thereby feel pumped up and ready for round 2.
Of course, by the same token, a constant string of losses and pyrrhic victories can get just as boring as winning all the time, and probably a bit more frustrating, but overall, I have to say, I'm ready to lose. And by lose, I mean, have our characters solidly lose a major storyline-based encounter against the primary enemy of the expansion, not just hear about a loss through second hand quest text. In the next expansion, let our enemies win, if only for a patch or two.
Filed under: Patches, Analysis / Opinion, Instances, Raiding, Lore, Bosses, RP






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 6)
niko Jul 12th 2009 4:09PM
Smart argument.
I'm sure just about everyone would like to see Tirion and Garrosh taken down a few notches. :)
Almoderate Jul 12th 2009 4:33PM
Yeah, there have been times I've wanted to punch Garrosh in the throat. There are a few other Northrend Horde leaders (in Dragonblight and Grizzly Hills, in particular) who could also do with a sound thumping. And as for Alliance... Don't get me started on your human king.
Atsuko Jul 12th 2009 4:40PM
To be quite honest, the only character I'd really love to be taken down a notch, is Varian Wrynn.
Or killed. Brutally.
And let someone sensible take over the Alliance, such as Magni.
On second thoughts, It would be even better if he were to become infested by the spirit of Ner'zhul after we kill Arthas, so I could personally slay him and spit on his corpse, and get phat loot for doing it.
Damn, i hate that man.
Eternauta Jul 12th 2009 5:13PM
I want Varian and Garrosh dead ASAP!
How about they fight and both die?
The Alliance has so many good candidates for faction leader... why do they have to stand such a douchebag.
devilsei Jul 12th 2009 5:26PM
Because Eternauta, they are only human.
The rest of us are gnomes, dwarfs, night elves, draenei, orcs, trolls, undead, tauren, and blood elves. Big difference.
Blazenwing Jul 12th 2009 5:50PM
Why does every faction leader need to be a shining bastion of goodness and decency? Varian Wrynn is a HUMAN king, and humans have shown throughout history that they are far from perfect. Varian is a flawed King who does what he does because he truly believes in his heart that the Horde is an abomination that cannot be trusted and needs to be wiped off the face of the planet, or else it'll be the humans who will suffer for it. All the Horde assaults on he and his family throughout his upbringing only solidify that. Spin it however the hell you want - blame rogue factions of the Forsaken, the demon crazy horde, not the current horde and whatever else all you want. The concrete fact remains that IN VARIAN'S EYES, every time there has been some human tragedy, it has been at the hands of a race currently protected by the Horde. He is doing what he feels necessary to protect his people - which should be his first responsibility as faction leader - even if it borders on blind racism. If Orcs murdered my father before my eyes, burned down my home, kidnapped me, etc., I can't say I'd feel any different than he does. Anybody else who says differently is lying.
jbcani Jul 12th 2009 7:32PM
@ All Varian Haters
I personally think that Varian is probably the best leader the Alliance can have. Unlike the other candidates, Varian is the only one so far that I've seen, get off his his arse and do something.
One of you recommended Magni. Magni, really? What has he done except prove he's unable to control his angst ridden daughter so she ran away? Throw whatever lore you have at me to disprove what I said but that's basically what happened.
And btw, no, I'm not a horde hater. I just think that after years of the Alliance's inaction, aside from sending troops to one place to another whenever a threat appears, would finally be stirred by a king who only wishes to see all potential threats to his kingdom be destroyed.
JBcani Jul 12th 2009 7:34PM
And Jaina doesn't count because when she does something, and it goes wrong, she says "Oops, I'm outta here." And teleports.
Cimmerial Jul 12th 2009 11:45PM
How the hell is Varian a good leader? We're engaged in a life-or-death struggle across 2 continents and another planet. So our wise leader, upon returning, decides to invade Northrend. /clap?
Omegan01 Jul 13th 2009 4:33AM
"How the hell is Varian a good leader? We're engaged in a life-or-death struggle across 2 continents and another planet. So our wise leader, upon returning, decides to invade Northrend. /clap?"
Uh...the Scourge decided to take the first swing at us, in face you forgot that little fracas in Orgrimmar and Stormwind harbor.
Overwelm Jul 13th 2009 8:27AM
If a lot of you would learn a bit about lore, there would be a lot less dispute.. Human's are flawed, yes, yes they are, that doesn't mean elves and dwarves are perfect but they sure as hell can see the big picture better than Varian can. As a KID Varian saw his own father be assasainated by a (half-)orc, one he trusted. Then as he grew up he was forced through gladatorial combat against orcs and with orcs alike. His "masters?" Orcs. Being a human you should figure out why he might have a bit of a grudge. He is clouded, don't just say you want him dead. Understand why he's like that.
Kaawn Jul 13th 2009 1:15PM
@Overwelm That reminds me a bit of Thrall's upbringing.. if you read the books. And Thrall is far more of a thoughtful and decent person then Varian.
valhan Oct 6th 2009 11:06PM
if your guys payed attention to the caticalism trailer it said as the fight against the lich king CONTINUES which implys that were still gonna be fighting him during that point
Zal Jul 12th 2009 4:12PM
That would be pretty cool. Although at least not all Northrend has been a walkthrough. Wrathgate was a decent blow, but then again half of the madness wasn't even Arthas' doing.
mattarin Jul 12th 2009 5:30PM
yeah wrathgate was a big blow and i wished we had more of that to make arthas more threating. after losing the battle at lights hope i wished we had more epic losing battles like that. i thought it was cool after all those victories killing the scarlet crusade we end up losing anyways so having the argent tournament be a failure as well would actually be pretty epic and a change of pace.
Erdinger Jul 12th 2009 7:23PM
Exactly what I was thinking throughout reading this article. The whole article is "wouldn't it be cool if we ever saw a token defeat" and ignored the big example of just that. Congratulations to the op. Your whole article and thread suggesting something to Blizzard... is wholly based on somehting Blizzard already did. Way to be creative!
Improbable Jul 12th 2009 4:12PM
There's two problems with making this work:
The first is if you tried to do it open world, and Blizz basically had to remove content. Not only would that be giving themselves a much smaller return on investment than they're used to, but players everywhere would be up in arms about not being able to see the original.
The other is if you did it in an instance, and the problem there is it's just not that compelling for players. People are still going to want to go in for loot and for the challenge of the fight, but going into a fight you know you're going to "lose" just isn't quite as much fun.
The second is less of a problem, but it's also less resounding. If they wanted to make it stick, they'd change some aspect of the existing world, but that's just not gonna happen.
TheMediator Jul 12th 2009 4:23PM
Phasing. I think it would be great if next expansion early on we went to the Dalaran and did some quest chain that was resolved late in leveling that expansion that ended with the destruction of that city and the true central hub was revealed at that point where all the survivors gathered.
Sean Riley Jul 12th 2009 4:25PM
You could make it work with an instance, and make it make sense, and still give it loot. That would keep players doing this.
Allow me to demonstrate:
Massive war-dungeon, you lead a small brigade of troops dedicated to wiping out a valuable strategic point for the Lich King. Failure to take this point will lead to the slaughter of hundreds of troops in a valley below. So far, so good.
You charge in as usual, and do some excellent work killing various groups and bosses. One of the latter ones drops some loot and a 'tightly locked chest' that can only be opened in the "______ Rise" ending area of the dungeon (this contains the major loot). Then, you go into the final battle, NPC soldiers all around you, against one of the Lich King's trusted lieutenants... and once you reach a certain point, he moves to wipe the floor with you. NPC soldiers die in droves and some clever attack does slow damage to everyone just for being there. NPC soldiers yell, "Retreat!" and it should become clear that's the only real choice. You flee with them, entering the TRUE last boss fight -- A gauntlet of small mobs and monsters that need to be either run past or killed fast enough that the party doesn't wipe to the slow, constant damage. (HoTs here could be vital to survival.) As you break out of the dungeon, onto the "______ Rise". And you get to see the soldiers march into the valley... and be slaughtered horribly. You know you failed, and the price of your failure.
The loot in the chest is a cold comfort.
Ultranator Jul 12th 2009 11:04PM
Another idea, what if Arthas himself was the one who swoops in to send the attackers running? Even better, what if we got a chance to fight him for a bit before we went for the retreat? That'd be fun.