What If We Lost: An argument for losing a major lore-based battle
Warning: This article does contain spoilers for the Argent Coliseum Raid. If you want to be surprised, skip this article!There's a pretty long thread going on in the General Forums right now that makes an interesting request of the dev team: Let us lose. The argument goes that we've been sort of steamrolling our way through massive challenges and insurmountable odds pretty much the whole raid game, and it's just getting boring. Nothing feels like a threat anymore. We know we're going to defeat it and move on. We need to shake things up.
The more I think about it, the more I like it. Why not let us be on the losing side, at least for a few patches? The Lich King himself could use a bit of help in that vein, for sure. The early leveling game did manage to conjure up a few heart-stopping moments where Arthas "let us win," but when it was time to take that to the next level, it seems like Blizzard's sort of backed off and gone stale. Now, we're holding a Ren Faire on his front lawn while his scourge mostly mills around aimlessly and doesn't make more than a token attempt to do anything threatening.
There would be no quicker way to get him to burst back on the scene by having him or one of his lieutenants deal us a devastating blow, one which we will find it hard to recover from.
I've been saying for a while that Tirion may need to be taken down a notch. The Argent Crusade wouldn't have even made it this far into Icecrown if it wasn't for the Ebon Blade doing much of their dirty work, and this plan to defeat the Scourge by killing off all the weak Horde and Alliance in elaborately staged gladiator matches in an coliseum built by goblins out of salvaged and plundered stone and wood stolen from benevolent spirits is starting to look pretty silly.
All of this leads to a pretty stale atmosphere, unlike in, say, Patch 2.4, where the Isle of Quel'danas featured a strong, dedicated army of Blood Elves constantly besieging our base by air and ground, and urgent quests that all very clearly had something to do with weakening the forces of Kael'thas and the Burning Legion. We very desperately need something to shake the tournament up.
So what if, in Patch 3.2, the Anub'arak fight becomes a complete rout? I mean, it is certainly bad enough that the Coliseum was collapsed by a Scourge General and all, but let's take it one step further. Let us lose. Near the end of the battle, when Anub'Arak is near death, let him "gather permafrost" or something to strengthen his chitin and become invulnerable, then let him do some sort of mega web spray move that leaves everyone immobilized. Then he'll give a short speech about how we must give up and join the Scourge, that he's living proof that resistance is futile, and so on and so forth. Then, perhaps he'll say his work is done and leave, telling you to think about why you are fighting against such impossible odds. If you want to take some edge off, Tirion can come and drive him off with Ashbringer (though even in retreat, Anub'Arak will be gloating about that whole only delaying the inevitable thing).
From there, Jaina comes and teleport the raid up to the floor of the Arena again, where we find that everything is devastated. Bodies of Frost Wryms and Ghouls and Abominations lie strewn about, but the bodies of slain Horde and Alliance soldiers and Argent Crusade and Ebon Blade knights far outnumber those, and the Coliseum is beginning to crumble from the battle damage. Tirion offers us a chest of rewards, but it's already clear that's cold comfort for the damage done.
In the meantime, Varian, Garrosh, and Darion, all of whom have already taken at least some issue with Tirion's methods in Icecrown, will come up to offer their own opinions on the complete failure of the Argent Tournament, the loss of so many good soldiers of their respective factions, and the complete failure thus far of the offensive against the Lich King.
This opens up so much excitement and potential for future patches. The Alliance and Horde now have more fuel for infighting, since they have one more instance they can point to where "working together" only bought destruction. The Ebon Blade and the Argent Crusade will have tense relations as their disagreement on how to fight Arthas is suddenly thrown into sharp relief.
And above it all, Arthas himself looks calculating, sinister, and powerful again. He's actively thrown his enemies into disarray with some well placed mind games, having waited while they stagnated at the Argent Coliseum, then struck at the opportune moment with a foe they thought they had vanquished. He's made them confused and dismayed, inflaming the already barely controlled conflicts between them and softening them for the final blow.
Of course, the plot for Patch 3.2 is probably pretty finalized regardless, but I did want to sketch out how losing could create a sense of urgency and allow for so many interesting new paths for lore and story to follow. I think a lot of people get a secret thrill from being the underdog, and we've lost that feeling because of our nearly uninterrupted string of clear victories at the end game level. Let us lose so we can feel threatened, and thereby feel pumped up and ready for round 2.
Of course, by the same token, a constant string of losses and pyrrhic victories can get just as boring as winning all the time, and probably a bit more frustrating, but overall, I have to say, I'm ready to lose. And by lose, I mean, have our characters solidly lose a major storyline-based encounter against the primary enemy of the expansion, not just hear about a loss through second hand quest text. In the next expansion, let our enemies win, if only for a patch or two.
Filed under: Patches, Analysis / Opinion, Instances, Raiding, Lore, Bosses, RP
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 6)
Sinthar Jul 14th 2009 5:21AM
Or maybe even a 'heroic defeat'. What i mean is, those brave adventurers, stay on fighting an impossible battle, the longer we stay alive and killing things (guarding the retreat of those fleeing soldiers/refugee/npcs) the better loot you eventually recieve. The mobs get harder, until maybe arthas or one of his top sidekicks comes to kick our tired and oom asses.
Not only is the defeat a good idea, but something that will refresh wow a bit imo. Would be quite nice if they released it WITHOUT it being on the PTR so no-one knows the thing before it goes live too. Personally id LIKE a few fights that noone had strats for (maybe changing tactics during fight so ppl have to be on their toes). BTW yes i know i dont have to read strats, but show me a guild that lets you do exactly that, esp when your a ranking officer. Also its pretty hard not to get told em, and a little daft to let down your guildies so you get a 'surprise'.
TheMediator Jul 12th 2009 4:14PM
I agree with your points. The plot would have been so much better if it wasn't some Forsaken traitors that killed the joint Horde and Alliance force, but Arthas himself decimating the living with some Naxxramas Plague or something like that (which would have brought relevance to Naxx, to stop the generation of such plague), and then being forced out by Alexstrasza. As it is, Arthas seems like a coward, constantly running away, not killing his enemies when they stand defiant before him... ughh. I hope the villain of the next expansion pack really does something where we feel like we have to stop this guy or the world is done.
webrunner Jul 12th 2009 4:17PM
Wasn't there supposed to be ending cienmatics to every "act"? What happened to the 'act' structure that was supposed to continue from the Wrathgate (incidentally, Wrathgate is a pretty good example of losing.. the death of a couple of major lore characters leading to a capital city being overrun)
Back when Wrathgate was first discovered, Blizzard mentioned that Wrathgate/Undercity was the end of 'act 1' of wrath of the lich king, and act 3 would be assaulting arthas.. but we dont know what act 2 is
Terethall Jul 12th 2009 4:24PM
Precisely! Patch 3.1 has been a total diversion from the original plan to have Arthas be the main focus of this expansion, and to have a consistent story arching between the patches. And it doesn't look like 3.2 is shaping up to be much of a return to that design philosophy.
Chukie Jul 12th 2009 4:17PM
Garrosh Varian Tirion yea they all need to be humbled a bit.
And by Arthas.
So far the most crushing blows have been dealt by the ras and the big bads of the expansion have been smacked around repeatedly.
jam Jul 12th 2009 4:17PM
"Near the end of the battle, when Anub'Arak is near death, let him "gather permafrost" or something to strengthen his chitin and become invulnerable, then let him do some sort of mega web spray move that leaves everyone immobilized. Then he'll give a short speech about how we must give up and join the Scourge, that he's living proof that resistance is futile, and so on and so forth."
Yeah, OK, we can let him think he has won as long as he drops epics.
Hoboken Jul 12th 2009 7:48PM
"Yeah, OK, we can let him think he has won as long as he drops epics."
THIS! This is what most of the player base probably thinks.
Mortiseraphim Jul 13th 2009 11:52AM
Azjol'Nerub was merely a setback!
Terethall Jul 12th 2009 4:19PM
Although I sincerely doubt Blizzard will buy into an idea which essentially tells players "Hey, you know that whole Argent Tournament thing we told you was gonna be awesome and exciting? Yeah, that was pretty much a massive failure," I would LOVE for something like that to be put into the game.
Frankly, I hate the whole Argent Tournament and the idea behind it. I hate jousting, I hate the lore, and I hate the lack of consistency and polish. It feels like Blizzard combined the filler-feel of Sunwell with the pointlessness of Mount Hyjal. Except minus all of the awesomeness and epic milieu that those raids possessed. That's one reason I would like to see the tournament destroyed. I think massive destruction in other places would be neat, too.
What if, in the final patch, and the push against Icecrown, the Kirin Tor decided to move Dalaran over Icecrown glacier, only to have it crash into the citadel and provide the entrance to the final raid against Arthas? The entire violet hold could be revamped as a mini-encounter and become the first fight in Icecrown 3.3. That kind of loss and destruction would really hit the player base at home and provide a real sense of investment into the story of this expansion.
Super Guest Man 9000 Jul 12th 2009 5:24PM
All i can see in my minds eye now is a flaming dalaran city hurtling out of the air at the citidale and I cant stop laughing
Eberron Jul 12th 2009 6:01PM
Personally, I want to see a cinematic that has some of the Knights of the Ebon Blade crashing Naxxramas in to Icecrown to open the first door. :D
devilsei Jul 12th 2009 9:17PM
"All i can see in my minds eye now is a flaming dalaran city hurtling out of the air at the citidale and I cant stop laughing"
Neither can I now!
And imagine if it was accidental too!?
Mage 1:"Gah! Dalaran is on fire!! Dalaran is on F***ING FIRE!! Why the hell is i-... wait... why are you here...?! Aren't you supposed to be up there making sure it stays afloat!?"
Mage 2: "Oh yeah... I asked Dave if he could fill in for me on my City Levitation shift..."
Mage 1: "... He's fire spec though you idiot...!!"
Mage 2: "Oh... OH! CRAP!!"
Galaden Jul 12th 2009 10:23PM
Dalaran would be "driven" by the same Draenei which was able to crash the Exodar on the side of a mountain.
Cyrus Jul 13th 2009 1:31AM
Yeah, I've been half-seriously expecting that.
Isn't it funny that there's so little going on in Crystalsong Forest? One flight path for each faction, half a dozen quests... and that's it. Crystalsong Forest is the smallest, least interesting zone in the game by any measure.
Why would they do that, just waste space like that? At first, of course, no one thought anything of it. When WotLK was released, we were all sure that something would be added there in later patches, just like we knew there were raids that would be patched in later and all that. And in 3.1 we did get a few things to do in Crystalsong Forest, and it became possible to gain rep with Sunreavers and Silver Covenant and they're the ones with outposts in Crystalsong so it seemed related to the forest even though it isn't. But AFAIK 3.2 will bring no changes to the forest, so that leaves 3.3, the expansion where we get to see Arthas himself. If the only thing they do to the forest is on the same scale as 3.1, just a few more quests or whatever, no one would ever notice with Arthas right there. Which makes me think they'll do something big in it. We can complain all we want about Blizzard not learning how to do certain things, but I think after four years they have learned enough to know not to create a zone and make it completely pointless.
And what could be bigger than Arthas knocking Dalaran out of the sky?
epsilon343 Jul 12th 2009 4:21PM
I agree with this sentiment. It's hard to believe we're truly threatened when we can steamroll through Arthas's main battleship (Naxx), kill off a Dragon Aspect (Malygos), and kill another Old God as well as smack the Herald of the Titans around.
So looking at Arthas, it's almost as if he's trying to be threatening and we're putting our fingers up like "Hold on a second, we'll get to you in a minute." It's like Blizzard is confused about the state of Northrend at the moment. On the one hand, they keep trying to build this image that Arthas is the ultimate bad guy who can sit there and threaten the entire world, yet we walked into Northrend and seem to have effectively trapped him in Icecrown where we're having a carnival and some games on his doorstep. I just don't feel like he's a threat anymore.
Unfortunately, I don't really think Blizzard will go this route. With the 3.0 event, we had all this build up and fear that the plague will destroy the world and then...nothing. It just went away. Ulduar, while a great instance, had the potential to be a great way to have dailies to unlock the instance such as gearing up Brann's expedition or something like that, instead we see a video about everyone panicking about Yogg-Saron and then when we kill him there's nothing. The Crusader Coliseum seems to be following the same path but I doubt anything will come from it, in the end. We'll kill Anub'Arak and yet again the good guys plow through the bad guys without even blinking an eye.
We can always hope, but that doesn't do much if Blizzard is set in their ways.
devilsei Jul 12th 2009 4:45PM
I agree.
We've bested his right-hand man and an entire army of undead right off the bat. Moved on to Ulduar where we defeated the 4 "great" watchers, the god of "Death", and of course, made the herald of the Titans submit, when with a mere utterance of a word, he could have our planet destroyed.
Now lets look at Arthas. He has Frostmourne, and the power to raise a dragon as the undead. Oooo scary. Considering what we've beaten in terms of lore, we shouldn't have an issue at all with defeating Arthas (Illadin should of done some dungeons in Northrend before confronting Arthas, he would of destroyed him by replacing his blades of azzinoth with a few blue dungeon drops.). Its only from a technical standpoint that we can't just swatkick the doors of Ice-crown in, walk into his throne room, and smack him around til he cries and then we drink them.
Its like we took out all the gremlins from the "Gremlins" movies, and now we have to kill Gizmo (first gremlins movie, not the one where he goes rambo). And on top of that, we're given some hammers and screwdrivers to kill him with.
Justin N. Jul 12th 2009 5:38PM
I concur with epsilon343 - we just keep winning and downing the greatest threats known to the world, while Arthas patiently waits his spanking in his citadel. However, I don't think a loss is good enough, particularly with raiding. The first time you enter an instance and down a boss feels great, enthralling...but then you realize they'll be back next week. Why don't our actions have some sort of permanency on the exterior or interior of the instance? Why, after defeating Algalon and Yogg, does Ulduar still stand proud-as-ever? Why doesn't Naxxramas crash to the ground with Kel'Thuzad defeated? We have this awesome phasing system that could permit such things, and yet Blizzard makes little use of it aside from Icecrown, Storm Peaks and the Wrathgate.
Why can't we have a Caverns of Time-esque area where we can "relive" defeated raids? It's a plausible loophole - just as we can run Caverns of Time endlessly and savor the lore, we could rerun defeated raid instances in a sort of time warp, maybe under the guise of sharpening our skills or learning from past mistakes, all while Naxxramas continues to burn in a pile of rubble in Dragonblight. Heck, you could even add further raiding incentive by making these portals available in Dalaran - there's quite a bit of space under the sewers, after all! A nice place for Badge Vendors and Raid Portals.
There needs to be some sort of permanency with regards to instances and raids. It's not plausible for Yogg-Saron to keep popping up again at 11:59AM Realm Time every Tuesday, ready to drive you insane once more. Yes, it's a game, but it shatters this sense of realism or involvement with the story itself, and waters raiding down from epic lore battles to mere loot runs.
Bring back the magic of boss kills, Blizzard! Let us lose, let us destroy, let us leave visible scars on the world from our actions. Let Ahn'Qiraj crumble, let Blackrock Mountain cave in on itself, let the Black Temple be razed by the combined Aldor and Scryer forces. Without some sense of permanency, these fights are meaningless from a lore standpoint.
devilsei Jul 12th 2009 6:30PM
Adding onto that Justin, but why not take it further?
On each server, whoever downs the raid first not only gets the credit and feat/achieve/title or whatever, but the fact that THEY took it down. The way the rest of us will have to assault it is through the bronze dragonflight allowing us to go back into it, after creating a time bubble around it, effectively isolating whatever happens in naxxramas to it alone. Ensuring that if one idiot goes in and raids it and fails, no ill reprocussions will occur on our end.
Of course that means a modification will have to occur on that server itself, but it could be as easy as placing anyone who enters Dragonblight/Storm-peaks/Icecrown into an automatic "Phased area".
And for an obligatory gold-sink (since blizzard sleeps with them ten times a day), you can pay a small fee to the dragons to throw some hocus-pocus on you so if you like seeing Naxx floating around, you can, and can even enter it. (from a technical standpoint its the same as just choosing not to enter the phased version).
DruidGuard Jul 12th 2009 4:22PM
Due to the seemingly short amount of time left in this expansion's run (only 3.3 after this, or so I've heard), it would appear that if Arthas was to make a a sneaky, devastating blow, his time has already passed. 3.1 would have been a perfect "Strikes Back" patch, since it would have been right after we had won some major victories but were still vulnerable to a strong counter-attack. Now? It looks more like Arthas is content to twiddle his frostbitten thumbs while he waits for us to get ready, sending the occasional scourge attack to make it look like he's at least trying.
I do however think that the next expansion, if it is the Maelstorm, will see a lot of both factions being put on the defensive. Entire shorelines swallowed by rogue waves, Naga and who-knows-what-else from the deep swarming into the land. It's hard to imagine us going full-offensive against creatures possibly many miles below the sea. We can only really fight the Naga when they choose to let us fight. Not to say we won't be crushing their armies and such, but I doubt we'll be able to hop onto their "zones" and start whacking them; more it'll be we attack them when they being taking over whatever islands pop up in the next expansion, frog-hopping from one to the next as we also try to counter whatever forces they send to the two major continents.
Sorry for straying a bit off topic, but I DO agree with the idea; let us lose, or at least push us back so that it feels like the danger is building towards an explosive climax instead of a whimper.
Andrew Jul 12th 2009 4:29PM
I want them to go further than having us lose, I want us to lose, and for it to cost us badly.
To wit, Blizzard has never said that Arthas will be defeated in 3.3, they've only said it will "conclude the story of Ashbringer". This can be read in one of several ways. The most common reading is the idea that Ashbringer is the antithesis of Frostmourne, and thus the only thing that can unmake Arthas' power. Another reading would be that Tirion dies trying to defeat Arthas, and players must embark on a quest chain similar to the Scepter of the Shifting Sands to reforge the Ashbringer, and once a player completes it, the Arthas fight is unlocked for reals.
In other words, have the first Arthas fight be a crushing defeat, and have his final defeat be the culmination of an Algalon-esque series of hard modes and interactions with major characters.
Another option that I like would be for the entire expansion to be ultimately a failed war. Mal'Ganis and the Burning Legion clearly want revenge against the lich king, their instrument who turned on them. If the legions of the scourge were not defeated entirely, but a demon lord took up control of them following the death of Arthas at the hands of players, we could find ourselves in a situation far more dangerous, one that could lead to a full-scale legion invasion of Azeroth.