What If We Lost: An argument for losing a major lore-based battle
Warning: This article does contain spoilers for the Argent Coliseum Raid. If you want to be surprised, skip this article!There's a pretty long thread going on in the General Forums right now that makes an interesting request of the dev team: Let us lose. The argument goes that we've been sort of steamrolling our way through massive challenges and insurmountable odds pretty much the whole raid game, and it's just getting boring. Nothing feels like a threat anymore. We know we're going to defeat it and move on. We need to shake things up.
The more I think about it, the more I like it. Why not let us be on the losing side, at least for a few patches? The Lich King himself could use a bit of help in that vein, for sure. The early leveling game did manage to conjure up a few heart-stopping moments where Arthas "let us win," but when it was time to take that to the next level, it seems like Blizzard's sort of backed off and gone stale. Now, we're holding a Ren Faire on his front lawn while his scourge mostly mills around aimlessly and doesn't make more than a token attempt to do anything threatening.
There would be no quicker way to get him to burst back on the scene by having him or one of his lieutenants deal us a devastating blow, one which we will find it hard to recover from.
I've been saying for a while that Tirion may need to be taken down a notch. The Argent Crusade wouldn't have even made it this far into Icecrown if it wasn't for the Ebon Blade doing much of their dirty work, and this plan to defeat the Scourge by killing off all the weak Horde and Alliance in elaborately staged gladiator matches in an coliseum built by goblins out of salvaged and plundered stone and wood stolen from benevolent spirits is starting to look pretty silly.
All of this leads to a pretty stale atmosphere, unlike in, say, Patch 2.4, where the Isle of Quel'danas featured a strong, dedicated army of Blood Elves constantly besieging our base by air and ground, and urgent quests that all very clearly had something to do with weakening the forces of Kael'thas and the Burning Legion. We very desperately need something to shake the tournament up.
So what if, in Patch 3.2, the Anub'arak fight becomes a complete rout? I mean, it is certainly bad enough that the Coliseum was collapsed by a Scourge General and all, but let's take it one step further. Let us lose. Near the end of the battle, when Anub'Arak is near death, let him "gather permafrost" or something to strengthen his chitin and become invulnerable, then let him do some sort of mega web spray move that leaves everyone immobilized. Then he'll give a short speech about how we must give up and join the Scourge, that he's living proof that resistance is futile, and so on and so forth. Then, perhaps he'll say his work is done and leave, telling you to think about why you are fighting against such impossible odds. If you want to take some edge off, Tirion can come and drive him off with Ashbringer (though even in retreat, Anub'Arak will be gloating about that whole only delaying the inevitable thing).
From there, Jaina comes and teleport the raid up to the floor of the Arena again, where we find that everything is devastated. Bodies of Frost Wryms and Ghouls and Abominations lie strewn about, but the bodies of slain Horde and Alliance soldiers and Argent Crusade and Ebon Blade knights far outnumber those, and the Coliseum is beginning to crumble from the battle damage. Tirion offers us a chest of rewards, but it's already clear that's cold comfort for the damage done.
In the meantime, Varian, Garrosh, and Darion, all of whom have already taken at least some issue with Tirion's methods in Icecrown, will come up to offer their own opinions on the complete failure of the Argent Tournament, the loss of so many good soldiers of their respective factions, and the complete failure thus far of the offensive against the Lich King.
This opens up so much excitement and potential for future patches. The Alliance and Horde now have more fuel for infighting, since they have one more instance they can point to where "working together" only bought destruction. The Ebon Blade and the Argent Crusade will have tense relations as their disagreement on how to fight Arthas is suddenly thrown into sharp relief.
And above it all, Arthas himself looks calculating, sinister, and powerful again. He's actively thrown his enemies into disarray with some well placed mind games, having waited while they stagnated at the Argent Coliseum, then struck at the opportune moment with a foe they thought they had vanquished. He's made them confused and dismayed, inflaming the already barely controlled conflicts between them and softening them for the final blow.
Of course, the plot for Patch 3.2 is probably pretty finalized regardless, but I did want to sketch out how losing could create a sense of urgency and allow for so many interesting new paths for lore and story to follow. I think a lot of people get a secret thrill from being the underdog, and we've lost that feeling because of our nearly uninterrupted string of clear victories at the end game level. Let us lose so we can feel threatened, and thereby feel pumped up and ready for round 2.
Of course, by the same token, a constant string of losses and pyrrhic victories can get just as boring as winning all the time, and probably a bit more frustrating, but overall, I have to say, I'm ready to lose. And by lose, I mean, have our characters solidly lose a major storyline-based encounter against the primary enemy of the expansion, not just hear about a loss through second hand quest text. In the next expansion, let our enemies win, if only for a patch or two.
Filed under: Patches, Analysis / Opinion, Instances, Raiding, Lore, Bosses, RP
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 6)
Clydtsdk-Rivendare Jul 12th 2009 7:19PM
If you're going to kill off Tirion, he'd have to come back as a lieutenant boss in the ICC raid (or maybe he'd be the new Algalon).
Grendalsh Jul 12th 2009 4:31PM
Wow.. something world impacting.. something where, maybe, as players, we actually have a hand in our own destruction? Maybe like some sort of.. ZOMBIE INVASION!!!
THE IRONY! Here we are months later, and people are ASKING for an event on par with the biggest whinefest in WoW history! Personally, I comletely LOVE the concept of an unwinnable instance. How many instances do we run, just because the scripting of the major fights is awesome. It's like watching a favorite movie over again. So having a major lore instance, where the point ISN'T to beat the boss, but to LEARN something (i.e. the players don't always win) would be .. impressive.
Consider some of the greats of fantasy literature.. in LoTR, that first fight against the Uruk-Hi, where Boromere (?) is killed defending the hobbits.. would that be anywhere near as epic if it could be replayed until the Buddyship of the Ring won? The whole point of that fight was to show the true nature of the characters in the face of defeat.
Likewise, having an unwinnable fight, one that shows us just how unprepared we are for the boss, is humbling. Feeling that if we DON'T win, there might be 'actual' consequences, based on previous losses... nothing makes for an awesome fight like actually being AFRAID to lose. "Do you lot want the zombies to keep eating your bank and AH alts? Then lets get this right chums! FOR THE ALTS!!!"
TobiasX Jul 12th 2009 5:07PM
The Zombie Invasion event gave player an opportunity to give others serious grief and ruin their gaming experience that the grieved player basically had no control over besides logging off. That isn't what this blog post is asking for.
On-topic: I think it'd be great if we, as players, lost for once. Ideally I'd like to see Garrosh and Varian killed off perminently but I know the second of those isn't going to happen any time soon.
Kia Jul 12th 2009 4:49PM
Yeah, a loss would be incredible. Even though it wasn't a loss, per se, events like the zombies and city invasions before Wrath were amazing, and as a roleplayer they added an absolute ton to the game environment.
As it is, though...meh. It's part of the reason why I'm getting bored with WoW, since games keep my attention by how well one can roleplay in them on top of the usual gameplay concerns. The lore seems to getting more and more tossed out the window, and the Argent Tournament is kind of "What?"
I like the idea in general, tourneys are always win, but in Icecrown? -Really-? I don't know, Blizz...whatever. They would have done better to add it to like, a neutral zone or two separate faction tourneys in, say, Durotar and Elwynn Forest. Making it open to all levels would have been better, as well. Let 20+ be Squires, make the Champion content relegated to near endgame levels like it is now, etc...
Irem Jul 12th 2009 5:44PM
"As it is, though...meh. It's part of the reason why I'm getting bored with WoW, since games keep my attention by how well one can roleplay in them on top of the usual gameplay concerns. The lore seems to getting more and more tossed out the window, and the Argent Tournament is kind of "What?""
There's a sense of urgency missing, I think. I can say my character is taking a break from the brutal war in Northrend to come into town and get supplies, but it rings hollow when everyone knows that most of what's going on up there has to do with a) bickering over Titan ruins, and b) riding horses. The conflict feels diluted, like I can just walk away from it and not much will happen. I don't feel a burning need to get back to Northrend and help; in fact, I've been able to come up with more IC reasons for my characters to be spending time in Outland for crying out loud, so that's where they've been.
I like to think that a patch is going to roll around soon and we're going to find out that everything we've been doing to this point--from killing Malygos and Yogg-Saron to smashing each others' heads in to being arrogant enough to hold the Tournament--has been exactly what Arthas wanted. I would -love- to see Arthas stand up, brush himself off, walk outside, and say, "Thanks for removing every single obstacle from my path." It would make events like the Wrathgate fall into place, realizing just how far he'd planned ahead only to be surprised at that moment, but most of all it'd put the blame squarely on our shoulders for screwing around, once we've realized that it's too late to fix it.
Kia Jul 12th 2009 6:08PM
Exactly. There's no sense of urgency, or anything. I did love some of the earlier zones and quests, where it made you feel like you really -were- someone. I recall some of the Alliance quests in Howling Fjord, where basically you're referred to as a commander and the military at certain points will defer to you upon arrival. Much more of a change than "Go here, listen to this guy, do this!"
Even though you're basically doing the same sort of questing as always, just the language change in the lore makes it seem like -you're- being listened to, or that the NPC is -suggesting- a course of action rather than telling you what to do.
I too prefer Outland when it comes to IC issues, and not only because my main is a draenei from the Nagrand area. I really haven't had much reason to rp in Northrend at all.
Nick Aug 7th 2009 12:14PM
Another example, in Icecrown, a Gnome in Valhallas says, "Keep your head down, are you trying to get us killed, Sedurut? What? Everybody in the expedition knows that name by now!" Or some such variant of what I said, can't remember the actual wording.
ckadavar Jul 12th 2009 5:06PM
Maybe Arthas wants to lose the fight. For some reasons.
Adam Jul 12th 2009 6:17PM
If we strike him down he will become more powerful than we could possibly imagine? ;)
Mugutu Jul 12th 2009 10:19PM
So Icecrown would be merely a setback?
Clbull Jul 12th 2009 4:57PM
Heres how I think the Argent Tournament raid will turn out. If we're gonna see Val'kyr and possibly even Anub'arak in this raid then its a sign that the Scourge are going to interupt in the tournament, in a much larger way than the Cult of the Damned tried to with the Black Knight.
In my opinion, I think that Anub'arak could end up being part of a much larger Scourge attack on the Tournament, and near the end of the raid, you will have to fight him.
devilsei Jul 12th 2009 5:14PM
If I remember right, only Anub'arak is the surprise scourge. The Valkyrs were captured so we could kill them. So unless Arthas explicitly ordered them to submit themselves, or Tirion thwacked em over the head with Ashbringer, I don't see how they were captured so easily.
In the end ultimately, maybe Anub'arak is acting on his own this time. He was pushed into a low-leveled 5man, and being the king of the bugs, I'd be pretty ticked if I was in that spot. And its taken him from then to now to burrow from the Dragonblight to Icecrown, and ambushes us as vengeance. The fact it helps the Lich King is just a bonus he didn't care for.
Clbull Jul 12th 2009 5:55PM
Maybe the Lich King is leading the Argent Crusade and the Ebon Blade into a false sense of security. They think that they've got the upper hand so far, yet I think that the Argent Tournament could possibly be the turning point of the war on the Scourge.
I was thinking more on the lines that the Lich King orders an attack on the Colosseum, and that is why the Val'kyr twins (if they were not captured) show up, and why Anub'Arak could be the final boss. He could have possibly survived the 5 man Azjol'Nerub instance just like Kael'Thas survived the Tempest Keep raid.
jack Jul 12th 2009 4:58PM
Im not to sharp on Lore. But tirion and the Lich king 1 on 1 in a cool cinematic.. Then tirion dies!or someone important like jaina who tirion was protecting. So atlast the Lich King shows us hes a Uber badass again =D
Auraeus Jul 12th 2009 4:58PM
I would really love this. Think of the old idea of "A Hero's Journey". Steps are that the Hero (Us) embarks on a quest, rising up to the challenges presented to them on a quest to defeat the "Big Nasty". Along the way, triumphs yield experience and joy, but eventually, the hero (In almost all cases) is defeated by someone that outguns them. With the loss burned in their memory, they become much, much stronger, and manage to win, although, there is a cost.
Now, I love winning as much as the next guy, but without the loss, it seems too... easy, if you will. A dramatic loss can make an epic story become almost legendary, giving the bad guy more "evil points", making the hero more human, and the allies and onlookers become more than just "NPCS" that stand and watch, but become part of the story.
Like said above, in LOTR, without Boromir's (sp? >.
Auraeus Jul 12th 2009 4:59PM
Hmm, all of my post didn't post. To heck with it, you all get the point, hopefully
devilsei Jul 12th 2009 5:06PM
True, but WoW, as far as I know, has nothing of the sort. We've rolled through everything in the end, and while we were used to further some agendas (the troll quest that leads to Gundrak) against us, we ultimately rectify it (Zul'Drak). Its never us being outgunned or outmatched. Its always a slap to the face, and not a punch in the guts (or below the belt). We even get shinies in the end too.
I'd love to see an epic quest that in the end, we are betrayed AND DON'T GET SOMETHING! We can get experience, but thats it. But of course everyone would whine about where the free epics are in that and ultimately would avoid it unless it was an achievement, and even then they'd either avoid it until they outleveled it, or could do it all in less than an hour.
Khanus Jul 13th 2009 12:06PM
I'd like to see something the reverse of the phasing we seen with the Ebon Blade hub. Move in to a fortified base, but instead of phasing our advancement of the base's construction, phase the slow destruction and routing of the forces stationed there until there are not faction troops left.
alex Jul 12th 2009 5:09PM
I remember seeing Arthas lose to a human Paladin - a human Paladin wielding the Ashbringer on holy ground - but still a mere human, and thinking, "Uh... THIS is the final boss? Really? REALLY? Laaaaaaaaame."
bregtann Jul 12th 2009 5:29PM
The same paladin who has now been demoted to some kind of dumb TV game show host in the Argent Lolament. Listening to Tirion calling out the contestants (I keep expecting him to say "we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors" in between each of the bosses), really makes me wonder if the Ashbringer isn't already corrupted by dumbness.