What If We Lost: An argument for losing a major lore-based battle
Warning: This article does contain spoilers for the Argent Coliseum Raid. If you want to be surprised, skip this article!There's a pretty long thread going on in the General Forums right now that makes an interesting request of the dev team: Let us lose. The argument goes that we've been sort of steamrolling our way through massive challenges and insurmountable odds pretty much the whole raid game, and it's just getting boring. Nothing feels like a threat anymore. We know we're going to defeat it and move on. We need to shake things up.
The more I think about it, the more I like it. Why not let us be on the losing side, at least for a few patches? The Lich King himself could use a bit of help in that vein, for sure. The early leveling game did manage to conjure up a few heart-stopping moments where Arthas "let us win," but when it was time to take that to the next level, it seems like Blizzard's sort of backed off and gone stale. Now, we're holding a Ren Faire on his front lawn while his scourge mostly mills around aimlessly and doesn't make more than a token attempt to do anything threatening.
There would be no quicker way to get him to burst back on the scene by having him or one of his lieutenants deal us a devastating blow, one which we will find it hard to recover from.
I've been saying for a while that Tirion may need to be taken down a notch. The Argent Crusade wouldn't have even made it this far into Icecrown if it wasn't for the Ebon Blade doing much of their dirty work, and this plan to defeat the Scourge by killing off all the weak Horde and Alliance in elaborately staged gladiator matches in an coliseum built by goblins out of salvaged and plundered stone and wood stolen from benevolent spirits is starting to look pretty silly.
All of this leads to a pretty stale atmosphere, unlike in, say, Patch 2.4, where the Isle of Quel'danas featured a strong, dedicated army of Blood Elves constantly besieging our base by air and ground, and urgent quests that all very clearly had something to do with weakening the forces of Kael'thas and the Burning Legion. We very desperately need something to shake the tournament up.
So what if, in Patch 3.2, the Anub'arak fight becomes a complete rout? I mean, it is certainly bad enough that the Coliseum was collapsed by a Scourge General and all, but let's take it one step further. Let us lose. Near the end of the battle, when Anub'Arak is near death, let him "gather permafrost" or something to strengthen his chitin and become invulnerable, then let him do some sort of mega web spray move that leaves everyone immobilized. Then he'll give a short speech about how we must give up and join the Scourge, that he's living proof that resistance is futile, and so on and so forth. Then, perhaps he'll say his work is done and leave, telling you to think about why you are fighting against such impossible odds. If you want to take some edge off, Tirion can come and drive him off with Ashbringer (though even in retreat, Anub'Arak will be gloating about that whole only delaying the inevitable thing).
From there, Jaina comes and teleport the raid up to the floor of the Arena again, where we find that everything is devastated. Bodies of Frost Wryms and Ghouls and Abominations lie strewn about, but the bodies of slain Horde and Alliance soldiers and Argent Crusade and Ebon Blade knights far outnumber those, and the Coliseum is beginning to crumble from the battle damage. Tirion offers us a chest of rewards, but it's already clear that's cold comfort for the damage done.
In the meantime, Varian, Garrosh, and Darion, all of whom have already taken at least some issue with Tirion's methods in Icecrown, will come up to offer their own opinions on the complete failure of the Argent Tournament, the loss of so many good soldiers of their respective factions, and the complete failure thus far of the offensive against the Lich King.
This opens up so much excitement and potential for future patches. The Alliance and Horde now have more fuel for infighting, since they have one more instance they can point to where "working together" only bought destruction. The Ebon Blade and the Argent Crusade will have tense relations as their disagreement on how to fight Arthas is suddenly thrown into sharp relief.
And above it all, Arthas himself looks calculating, sinister, and powerful again. He's actively thrown his enemies into disarray with some well placed mind games, having waited while they stagnated at the Argent Coliseum, then struck at the opportune moment with a foe they thought they had vanquished. He's made them confused and dismayed, inflaming the already barely controlled conflicts between them and softening them for the final blow.
Of course, the plot for Patch 3.2 is probably pretty finalized regardless, but I did want to sketch out how losing could create a sense of urgency and allow for so many interesting new paths for lore and story to follow. I think a lot of people get a secret thrill from being the underdog, and we've lost that feeling because of our nearly uninterrupted string of clear victories at the end game level. Let us lose so we can feel threatened, and thereby feel pumped up and ready for round 2.
Of course, by the same token, a constant string of losses and pyrrhic victories can get just as boring as winning all the time, and probably a bit more frustrating, but overall, I have to say, I'm ready to lose. And by lose, I mean, have our characters solidly lose a major storyline-based encounter against the primary enemy of the expansion, not just hear about a loss through second hand quest text. In the next expansion, let our enemies win, if only for a patch or two.
Filed under: Patches, Analysis / Opinion, Instances, Raiding, Lore, Bosses, RP
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Reader Comments (Page 5 of 6)
JBcani Jul 12th 2009 7:36PM
Why would we want a resolution between the Alliance and Horde? I want a war.
Noralith Jul 13th 2009 11:23AM
Here's what needs to be done. Next patch, a major piece of content has a quest linked to it. Your situation above happens, we get the quest reward after "losing".
Much like Wrathgate, a HUGE event where everyone got a piece of gear. Blizz needs to add something new, something huge, and have it destroyed.
Kaorael Jul 12th 2009 7:41PM
I think it could be a great opening for 3.3 and as attunement for Icecrown Citadel. After the trouble in the coliseum, neither Varian nor Garrosh want to hear anything about working together, so each faction gets a series of phased quests that lead to an assault of Icecrown Citadel by an army of your faction (alone). You defeat the initial forces outside and everyone seems to think that Arthas is going down, when the gates open, armies of gouls and bone giants and other Scourge things pour out, and Arthas himself comes down mounted on Syndragosa (the frost wyrm he raises in the opening cinematic) with enough frost wyrms behind him to darken the skies and completely annihilate your army. The follow-up would be an escape quest where you have to take your faction leader to safety. Varian would be rescued by Argent Crusade paladins or Jaina, and Garrosh by Thrall and Saurfang themselves, and both leaders would finally be humbled before the threat they face and accept working together for the final push.
Lore-wise, the Alliance would probably attack first, because while Varian has his faults, I don't see him as bad a tactician as Garrosh, nor as quick to dismiss the strength of the other faction, and if he saw the Horde be defeated that way he would think twice before attempting the same.
Keleron Jul 12th 2009 7:56PM
I enjoy the AT a lot. Of course I am working on my mount collection.. which is pretty meaningless since the 100mount dragonhawk is only 280%. That should really be changed. Anyway I have a goal and that makes doing the dailies so much easier Plus the gold is nice and after wiping so many times in Ulduar I need the income:)
BUT, I agree whole heartedly with the comparison the author made to patch 2.4s dailies. I LOVED doing those. It felt epic. I have said before and will again, questing/lving in BC was not nearly as cool as it was in Wrath, but ones reaching 70 in BC the game felt very cool. Everything was just awesome. THe raids were awesome and fun. The dailies were epic to do. The gear was AWESOME looking. Wrath is just so bland is o many ways when you hit 80 IMHO. They do need to shake things up. I say tie in BC and Wrath in a a future patch. Bring the Burning Legion back and make that an extra threat for the Alliance/Horde.
jealouspirate Jul 12th 2009 8:14PM
A lot of people in the comments seem to be calling for the death of Garrosh and/or Varian.
Varian will live, but I doubt Garrosh will. Let's try to tie in both Garrosh's death and a major defeat.
Garrosh stages a coup. Thrall is kidnapped or something. We've already seen that he is most likely stronger than Thrall is one on one combat. Or perhaps he's taken by the Scourge and Garrosh rushes to fill the gap of power.
Naturally, Garrosh sends the Horde armies on a rampage against both the Scourge and the Alliance. Varian is quick to respond by moving Alliance troups into the combat. Many are slain. And what happens when people are slain these days? They become Scourge.
There's general chaos all over Northrend, causing even the Argent Crusade and Ebon Blade to falter. Arthas takes this chance to strike out, causing even more loss.
Eventually, somehow, Thrall comes back to take his throne and kill Garrosh. Then both groups have to refocus on the Scourge and fight to gain back the ground that they've lost.
bdew Jul 13th 2009 3:21AM
You should read the comic... while the fight was only seen in 2 panels it didn't look like Thrall threated it seriusly. Also after the fight was interrupted by the invasion he proceeded to roundhouse kick abominations and oneshot a fucking necropolis.
Erlec Jul 12th 2009 8:03PM
Haven't you realised some things with wotlk.
There are more enemies then one we have had to take care of then the Lich king. We have killed Malygos and Yogg-Saron, two who have been considered enemies to the Lich king. With the removal of these two, there is no other opponents against us (there is still one/ more threat(s), residing in the sanctum). By using your enemey to remove other enemies that can attack you, you can focus on the largest enemy. So due to manipulation from the lich king we have removed almost every enemy lich king had for the control of Northrend.
He can easily now take over the areas that have previously eluded him and launch another invasion with his forces.
Nightwaffles Jul 12th 2009 8:08PM
Ok, I agree with the "being used by the bad guys" idea. I haven't full cleared Ulduar. But I've read that Algalon dies. Now, feeling good about our victory. We go and party in Icecrown. While we are all off having fun and getting drunk. Where is the Lich King? Turning Algalon into his servant...Since we killed him and all. Doesn't the Lich King play with dead things? Talk about being used...
Erlec Jul 12th 2009 8:22PM
[Spoilers be here, Do not read if you have not killed agalon and do not want to know what happens]
Agalon doesn't die. Due to the effort and passion of the mortals who battled him, he is moved by the effort and says this:
"I have seen worlds bathed in the Makers' flames. Their denizens fading without so much as a whimper. Entire planetary systems born and raised in the time that it takes your mortal hearts to beat once. Yet all throughout, my own heart, devoid of emotion... of empathy. I... have... felt... NOTHING! A million, million lives wasted. Had they all held within them your tenacity? Had they all loved life as you do?
Perhaps it is your imperfection that which grants you free will. That allows you to persevere against cosmically calculated odds. You prevailed where the Titans' own perfect creations have failed. "
He returned to the titans after he gave you the reply code alpha. Thus he can't be touched by the Lich king.
p.s. I see alot of people talking about a attack which fails, the idea is pretty good however the Argent Tournument can also be a place where the Lich king finds his best new "recruits" By gathering all the forces in one place to find the strongest one, he can easily kill them and make them his thus rendering the enemies weapon his own.
devilsei Jul 12th 2009 8:23PM
I don't know where you heard that Night, but you should honestly youtube "alganon". He isn't dead, we just managed to impress him just enough to save our hides (cause from a lore stand point, the herald of the titans shouldn't be so weak that a bunch of people could best him).
Amaxe Jul 12th 2009 8:13PM
A setback would be good. Right now the whole Tournament seems like a distraction. If Arthas is really on the ropes, then why not just send a bunch of gnomish bombers over to turn his citadel into a bunch of ice cubes for a few months instead of whacking each other with sticks ;-)
Something which would lead the players on an instance where they fail to stop the evil plan before they drop the boss would be gripping storytelling. A sort of leaving you with "Dammit, I want to kick Arthas' ass when we meet up again.
Such a defeat need not be an apocalyptic level defeat, but enough to show the Alliance and Horde not to take the war for granted
GhostWhoWalks Jul 12th 2009 8:31PM
Holy crap, I am all for that scenario. It's perfect. Even though the player isn't forced into an "unwinnable" battle (how many times have RPGs forced those on us with increasing frustration?), it would still count as an actual loss in the plot line.
I've been waiting a long time for Blizzard to make Arthas an actually threatening and credible villain again (he goes from an unstoppable badass who defeated three opposing armies at once at the end of Frozen Throne to the Warcraft equivalent of Inspector Gadget's Dr. Claw? "I'll get you next time, Tirion! NEXT TIIIIIIIME!" ) and a plot twist to the Tournament would be a brilliant way of doing so.
GhostWhoWalks Jul 12th 2009 8:31PM
Almost forgot to add that having Varian around might not be such a bad thing. Sure, he's a stubborn dick, but I find it a delightful irony that the roles of the Horde and the Alliance have essentially been reversed; the "savage" Horde is led by a level-headed and forgiving diplomat, while the "civilized" Alliance is led by a hot-headed and short-tempered warmonger. As much as I dislike Varian Wrynn, Blizzard designed him well.
Deman Jul 12th 2009 9:09PM
I remember from somewhere in the lore of the expansion that the val'kyr had helped Arthas "take over the spirit realm of Northrend". Imagine if, at the end of the Tournament event, you participate in a battle for the tournament grounds, and you lose, better yet you die! But when you release spirit, you dont see a spirit helear in front of you, but Arthas saying he finally has you! Then a whole series of phased quests where you regain your body and will or something like that.
deplicitus Jul 12th 2009 9:25PM
Well the act system is mentioned where blizzard said that the expansion would have 3 "acts" and each one has a cut scene at the end. you can infer icecrown is act 3, and they said the wrath gate was act 1. That means 2 Must be in the tournament... What if all your data mining found the encounter dialogue but not a cut scene after it with the real story? Blizzard has had things to trip up data miners so far, I'm sure if something like that was implemented they would hide it till patch day. It might not be too late for a defeat at the Tournament... The failure people are wanting might not even be in the patch yet.
Hubuly Jul 12th 2009 9:43PM
Yeah a defeat would be a great plot device and im kind of expecting blizz to pull it on us like what if we attack ice crown with all the forces of the alliance and horde including all the leaders of both the alliance and the horde and you get to the throne room you just see the throne empty with scourged saurfang jr and fordragon as death knights standing on either side. theyll then gloat about how theyre master's plan was perfect, not only did you destroy all of the lich kings enemies but you fell into his trap of luring the heroes and leaders of the alliance into a trap. Then you fight fordragon or saurfang jr depending on your faction and win then as you feel all happy for yourself and are partying a courier comes with the bad new that all of the capitals have been attacked by the scourge while the leaders were gone leading to awesome new dailies
Plus you could make it so the cities are only changed in looks so like you could be on your level 80 and see stormwind as a broken down attacked city but you could be trading with a level 20 that sees it as normal
perderedeus Jul 12th 2009 9:45PM
I'd love to see the Horde/Alliance/Argent Crusade dealt a blow. It would be a bold storytelling decision on Blizzard's part.
I doubt we'll see it. Most play this game primarily to "win" every time, and that's how things will go. And when you think about it, Arthas has already had a fair share of victories... the downfall of Lordaeron, the destruction of the Sunwell, the merging with the Lich King, plus a triumph of sorts at the Wrathgate. Heck, even the zombie invasion that led up to WotLK's launch was a success for the Scourge.
Domi Jul 13th 2009 12:46AM
God, I'd love to see something like this.
MechaKingGhidra Jul 12th 2009 11:22PM
Personally, I don't see the Lich King being outright killed by us, personally. Remember, he has demonic enemies still fuming over his defiance, especially since there are no longer any well-known lore figures to act as Burning Legion agents to charge in on their behalf and we only pushed back the assault that the Legion's #2 in-command provoked, shoving his ugly mug back to wherever his plane of existence is.
If anything, I think that the Argent Tournament will be the straw that breaks the frostwyrm's back and Arthas loses control over his normal behaviour, lashes out, and pretty much nullifies most of the tactical advantages we worked at phasing the zones for in the first place.
From there, everything would remain at a stalemate until the Icecrown raid with some last-ditch efforts and by the end of the Arthas fight, he would have to flee or collapse his citadel with more or less a self-destruction mechanic (classic villainy at it's finest) as Kil'Jaedan or perhaps even Sargeras announces with a haunting warning or taunt that he's come back to finish the Lich King off (so he can finally raze Azeroth and continue business as usual with stabbing planets and such).
It would last into a ***hopeful*** Maelstrom expansion since Queen Azshara (spelling?) worked with the Burning Legion before, it would explain who Varimathras was calling out to when we took back the Undercity, and more or less leave Northrend as a clean-up duty area much like how we left the Outlands.
Tar Jul 13th 2009 12:40AM
Archi is well and truely dead, sorry to say, though the others there is a possibility that we have only killed their eye/ destroyed their physical manifestation w/e