What If We Lost: An argument for losing a major lore-based battle
Warning: This article does contain spoilers for the Argent Coliseum Raid. If you want to be surprised, skip this article!There's a pretty long thread going on in the General Forums right now that makes an interesting request of the dev team: Let us lose. The argument goes that we've been sort of steamrolling our way through massive challenges and insurmountable odds pretty much the whole raid game, and it's just getting boring. Nothing feels like a threat anymore. We know we're going to defeat it and move on. We need to shake things up.
The more I think about it, the more I like it. Why not let us be on the losing side, at least for a few patches? The Lich King himself could use a bit of help in that vein, for sure. The early leveling game did manage to conjure up a few heart-stopping moments where Arthas "let us win," but when it was time to take that to the next level, it seems like Blizzard's sort of backed off and gone stale. Now, we're holding a Ren Faire on his front lawn while his scourge mostly mills around aimlessly and doesn't make more than a token attempt to do anything threatening.
There would be no quicker way to get him to burst back on the scene by having him or one of his lieutenants deal us a devastating blow, one which we will find it hard to recover from.
I've been saying for a while that Tirion may need to be taken down a notch. The Argent Crusade wouldn't have even made it this far into Icecrown if it wasn't for the Ebon Blade doing much of their dirty work, and this plan to defeat the Scourge by killing off all the weak Horde and Alliance in elaborately staged gladiator matches in an coliseum built by goblins out of salvaged and plundered stone and wood stolen from benevolent spirits is starting to look pretty silly.
All of this leads to a pretty stale atmosphere, unlike in, say, Patch 2.4, where the Isle of Quel'danas featured a strong, dedicated army of Blood Elves constantly besieging our base by air and ground, and urgent quests that all very clearly had something to do with weakening the forces of Kael'thas and the Burning Legion. We very desperately need something to shake the tournament up.
So what if, in Patch 3.2, the Anub'arak fight becomes a complete rout? I mean, it is certainly bad enough that the Coliseum was collapsed by a Scourge General and all, but let's take it one step further. Let us lose. Near the end of the battle, when Anub'Arak is near death, let him "gather permafrost" or something to strengthen his chitin and become invulnerable, then let him do some sort of mega web spray move that leaves everyone immobilized. Then he'll give a short speech about how we must give up and join the Scourge, that he's living proof that resistance is futile, and so on and so forth. Then, perhaps he'll say his work is done and leave, telling you to think about why you are fighting against such impossible odds. If you want to take some edge off, Tirion can come and drive him off with Ashbringer (though even in retreat, Anub'Arak will be gloating about that whole only delaying the inevitable thing).
From there, Jaina comes and teleport the raid up to the floor of the Arena again, where we find that everything is devastated. Bodies of Frost Wryms and Ghouls and Abominations lie strewn about, but the bodies of slain Horde and Alliance soldiers and Argent Crusade and Ebon Blade knights far outnumber those, and the Coliseum is beginning to crumble from the battle damage. Tirion offers us a chest of rewards, but it's already clear that's cold comfort for the damage done.
In the meantime, Varian, Garrosh, and Darion, all of whom have already taken at least some issue with Tirion's methods in Icecrown, will come up to offer their own opinions on the complete failure of the Argent Tournament, the loss of so many good soldiers of their respective factions, and the complete failure thus far of the offensive against the Lich King.
This opens up so much excitement and potential for future patches. The Alliance and Horde now have more fuel for infighting, since they have one more instance they can point to where "working together" only bought destruction. The Ebon Blade and the Argent Crusade will have tense relations as their disagreement on how to fight Arthas is suddenly thrown into sharp relief.
And above it all, Arthas himself looks calculating, sinister, and powerful again. He's actively thrown his enemies into disarray with some well placed mind games, having waited while they stagnated at the Argent Coliseum, then struck at the opportune moment with a foe they thought they had vanquished. He's made them confused and dismayed, inflaming the already barely controlled conflicts between them and softening them for the final blow.
Of course, the plot for Patch 3.2 is probably pretty finalized regardless, but I did want to sketch out how losing could create a sense of urgency and allow for so many interesting new paths for lore and story to follow. I think a lot of people get a secret thrill from being the underdog, and we've lost that feeling because of our nearly uninterrupted string of clear victories at the end game level. Let us lose so we can feel threatened, and thereby feel pumped up and ready for round 2.
Of course, by the same token, a constant string of losses and pyrrhic victories can get just as boring as winning all the time, and probably a bit more frustrating, but overall, I have to say, I'm ready to lose. And by lose, I mean, have our characters solidly lose a major storyline-based encounter against the primary enemy of the expansion, not just hear about a loss through second hand quest text. In the next expansion, let our enemies win, if only for a patch or two.
Filed under: Patches, Analysis / Opinion, Instances, Raiding, Lore, Bosses, RP
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Reader Comments (Page 6 of 6)
dick Jul 13th 2009 2:22AM
Nah, don't think it will make the game more interesting really...
Don't get me wrong, I love the lore, but I don't see why losing big time would make it more interesting. Alliance and Horde have enoguh dire times to be appealing to me storywise. And I want to see the 'good' guys win in the end anyway...
What I feel as strange is the fact that Horde and Alliance work together towards defeating Arthas, but still we can't communicatie with eachother (or even do joint raids).
It would make sense that in 3.2 (or at least 3.3) we would be able to have joint raids on a common enemy... Now that would make it more interesting imo...
Oteo Jul 13th 2009 3:33AM
I dunno, I felt pretty decimated when Arthas struck down Saurfang Jr.
I remember questing for him when he was just a widdle Mag'har pup who wanted to walk the earth *sniff* :'(
Kashind Jul 13th 2009 10:38AM
I have to agree with this article.
We are fighting the Lich King. This guy is supposedly powerful enough and has enough undead that if we don't stop him the world is screwed. So we go to Northrend and find.... no challenge? This master of death itself is unable to stop us. We're able to land on his continent, set up bases he can't destroy, decimate his armies, assassinate his lieutenants, capture his bases, etc. and he does absolutely nothing about it.
Heck, there is no reason the Argent Tournament should actually exist. Three tents and a few parts of a Colliseum with mountains on two sides, a sharp drop on one side, and Sindragosa's fall, home to countless Scourge. It should have been wiped out day one of it's existance, yet all the Lich King does about it is send one pathetic Frost Wyrm to attack it? Reallly?
The whole thing is just kind of ridiculous. Our characters are starting to become freaking demi-gods, capable of just ROFLPWNing one threat after another after another without the slightest effort. And when telling a story having these sorts of things happen just makes it boring. Heck, even in Star Wars and Lord of the Rings the main heroes had losses and setbacks. Did they win in the end? Yeah, but did they get there without a scratch and no effort whatsoever? Heck no.
We need more Wrathgate type stuff if you ask me. Where it feels like we've actually lost something. Except make it so the Scourge actually accomplishes the deed, instead of just running away. Again. Hopefully next expansion the villain will actually try. Right now the Scourge look about as powerful as those gnolls in Elywnn Forest.
Alchemistmerlin Jul 13th 2009 10:46AM
"Next time gadget! NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEXT TIIIIIIIIIIME!"
Is dull, so "letting us lose" is also dull if the bad guy just ports out.
And please, no more fuel for the in-fighting, it's a stupid, childish plot point with no actual logic behind it. As I've said before, this damned game is written by prepubescent apes.
Nick Aug 7th 2009 12:16PM
Wellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.......
impurezero Jul 13th 2009 11:17AM
I love, love, love the standard RPG unwinable battle scenario, on one condition: The battle has to be interesting and challenging up until the end of the battle (i.e., not getting wiped immediately and then the battle turns to a cut scene. You should have to work for the cut scene and get the boss a few phases in before it triggers). Then he can feel free to escape as long as there's a chest full of loot he's leaving behind.
The best part about it, is that when you eventually meet up with him again, you are treated to a more difficult battle, but "this time it's personal." Not everyone has to die the second we enter their room.
impurezero Jul 13th 2009 11:19AM
Oh...it also works great if an important NPC is killed, or temporarily decomissioned for awhile.
I wish dungeons had more story linking them together like this. I also miss attunements, which allowed for more possibilities of multi-dungeon story arcs.
rmcstudios Jul 13th 2009 1:00PM
I think the idea of being on the losing side is a great idea. Some kind of a fight where at the last boss fight in a raid, he gets down to 10%, does some cinematic scene where he wipes the entire raid, pokes fun at our weakness and then leaves. We then get rez'd by some outside force or rescue party and collect some gold. NO loot since we did not defeat him. Would def be different and I think something worth looking in to.
styopa Jul 13th 2009 2:01PM
How's this:
Blizzard studies the logs for the last, eh, 4-6 months.
They look at zones in the OLD world that have multiple parallel level options (Desolace / Dustwallow, for instance; or Azshara/Felwood/WPL/Un'Goro), and see which are the LEAST used by people leveling. Face it, we ALL know there are places with a better 'concentration' of quests and better flow/less running around than others in the Old World. I'm going to guess that there is a SIGNIFICANT bias in favor of the smoother/funner (?) zones.
Have the Lich King invade the OLD world, and kick the crap out of those zones. Devastate cities, murder NPCs, etc. Heck, make it a world event like the opening of AQ EXCEPT that the pressure is on - the Lich King's forces will progressively overrun these zones UNLESS some sort of world quests are done to stave them off. Heck, this can open up new instances and raid missions, as players are tasked with raiding a command post, supply lines, bases, etc of the approaching enemy.
Now, personally, I'd just let them HAVE Azshara, for example (especially if it means we get some new instances), but perhaps they could incentivize players by having the effects hurt everyone if its allowed to slip....reputation losses, imposition of faction taxes (heh, the overwhelming triumph of the Lich King himself wouldn't make players cry as much as THIS)....PERSONALLY (and this is probably only me) I'd love to see a creeping scourge crossing the lands, consuming (blocking to all but the toughest characters) zone after zone leaving perhaps one string of zones for people advancing new toons. I'd personally even go so far as to see how many ACTUALLY NEW TOONS/NEW ACCOUNTS are opened on that server over the last 6 months, to determine how bad it would get - very mature (in terms of toon population) servers could get very bad indeed. Lacking any significant player efforts at resistance, I could see the races holed up in their capitals, and having to organize/fight back from there. Zeppelins would be fighting their way to the towers, ships would connect desperate holdouts....and toons would really have to fight to clear the scourge. :)
My strongest suggestion would be to LET THE WORLD CHANGE IN SIGNIFICANT WAYS. The staleness of the unchanging setting is contributing greatly to my ennui, anyway.
MadMac10 Jul 13th 2009 2:48PM
I firmly believe that it is a handicap of our culture to disallow loss. I have been railing against this situation since seeing "The Piano" and more recently, "Pan's Labyrinth." [Thank God for Clint Eastwood, who has never been afraid to kill off his heroes.] After seeing the bulk these posts roundly applauding the value of loss, I have to conclude that authors today do not seem to know their public at all.
Can you imagine the meetings where these types of scenarios were undoubtably posited? I'll bet they were slapped down with replies like, "Consumers would reject unhappy endings with their wallet, and therefore we'd lose revenue;" or "Our players only want to win—loot means more to them than lore." Honestly, though, I believe the MMORG World of Warcraft is capable of so much more than any other cultural media today: from deeply flawed major characters to poignant explorations of racism, the folks at Blizz have never been one to shy away from the borders of comfort. I sure hope someone came out of that meeting with a burning ember...
I dearly hope that someone from Blizzard is reading the comments to this article. There have been so many suggestions for making this game much more relevant than anything in our culture today. Perhaps they might even reverse a trend in literature and film.
Rational Jul 13th 2009 9:05PM
I agree completely. The lore has gotten boring and formulaic. The players are killing their way through the lore, eliminating major characters one after another. Bring back uncertainty, bring back actual struggle and heroism. Victory is meaningless when winning is a foregone conclusion.
Spfm275 Jul 14th 2009 6:29AM
Zhiva some lore is not present for players so Blizzard can surprise everyone. If you really want to know let me put it to you like this. Archimonde the 3rd most powerful demon of the Burning Legion is known as the Defiler. The World Tree is directly linked to the Emerald Dream. Archimonde assaulted the World Tree "draining it". There is now a corruption defiling the Emerald Dream spreading darkness and malice. Are you starting to see a pattern? Maybe Archimonde got his defiler title because he umm defiles? The burning legion has destroyed many world and its leadership is very calculating I'm sure when the Nightmare is unveiled we will be looking at Archimonde smiling at us.
draco Aug 7th 2009 11:28AM
think about it, this could drive away some of the games biggest noobs cos they all hate losing, and that would mean less noobs therefore the game could overall be better becouse of an improved player base
Nick Aug 7th 2009 12:15PM
We definitely need to lose. If Arthas becomes a loot run I'm gonna kill someone. >.>
ikandiman Sep 25th 2009 11:02AM
Hell with Magni- Muradin needs to bring his screaming Frostborn Eagles in and whup his old students ass. Then he needs to cack-punch Varian and Garrosh simultaneaously.
ikandiman Sep 25th 2009 11:54AM
Or have a Scooby Doo moment -
"And I would have gotten away with it if not for you meddling gnomes"
Darikiel Sep 25th 2009 12:35PM
This is a such a great idea! I really hope something does happen before 3.3 especially since now the Crusader Coliseum is up and running. Tensions between those two groups would be awesome! Great argument!
Alex Sep 25th 2009 5:27PM
I'll get you next time Penelope Pitstop! Mwaha! Mwahahaheheheheha!