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7-13-2009 @ 8:04AM
I went with Horde right from Beta. Playing previous Warcraft games, I have always enjoyed the horde side of the story. As well, the Taurens have always appealed to me. If anything, they are to the most "good" guys in the game.
7-13-2009 @ 8:57AM
Yeah, the Horde are the good guys.I originally started off as Alliance, but I quickly grew horrified by the bigotry and racism in the quest text for Alliance, and changed to Horde before long.The Alliance NPCs tend to be horrible horrible people. My family are blatant racists. I've lived around that disgusting attitude my whole life. Like hell I was going to support that attitude by playing on the side of the Alliance.
7-13-2009 @ 10:01AM
@KarilynAh... so the Horde aren't butchers either? They didn't massacre the people of Draenor? They didn't betray both sides at the Wrathgate? They didn't spend their time sucking the life from a naaru? Yeah, they're good people too.
7-13-2009 @ 10:09AM
Curious. I couldn't abide by the playing of the Horde, with its "Ends Justify the means" evil. The Forsaken based quests struck me as particularly offensive killing farmers and the like. The Tauren were not so bad, but really outside of a misguided sense of loyalty to the orcs over hospitality, I can't see them as fitting in with the Horde. People often cite Wrynn as proof of the racism of the Alliance, but the question he asked at Undercity is quite valid: If the (bloodlusted) orcs had not come to Azeroth from Draenor, how much more peaceful would Azeroth have been?The Horde has to recognize that the evil on Azeroth (Scourge, Burning Legion) did not exist before the Orcs cameSo while Wrynn could be considered wrong to use derogatory terms for orcs, the responsibility of the orcs for the evils here is rather high. Thrall may indeed be seeking to raise the orcs up from barbarism to being a civilized people, but there is a lot of evil which is to be undoneSo it cuts both ways.
7-13-2009 @ 10:21AM
I like the Tauren too and the horde campaign was arguably my favorite in WC3. The first characters I rolled on my ten day trial were an Orc and a Tauren. However, I just didn’t like all the heavy-handed love of battle, honor, hunting, and dying a good death. It’s arguably very badass and its fun to control an army of characters who hold this sentiment, but it just didn’t feel as relatable to me once I was in one of their shoes. Slapping around peons with a blackjack was kind of it for me. It just seemed kind of strange to me that a race that had been enslaved for so long would confine a population of its people to a relegated social class of physical labor and abuse.The alliance has its racist tendencies. That’s for sure. But with trolls, undead and blood elves on horde, can you honestly say the other faction doesn’t? I ultimately rolled a Night Elf Druid and then a Draenei Shaman. The night elves are arguably the most xenophobic race in the game, but if you had a bunch of people coming in and burning down and killing your tree and animal friends, wouldn’t you be too? The Draenei are probably the faction’s least racist race. Heck, they even let the blood elves team up with them in the end and those guys are crazy. Overall, I could see myself hanging in a bar with some alliance soldiers and talking about the farm back at home, the ale in ironforge, or the new invention some gnome is coming up with than sitting with some orcs and trolls and discussing how I will prove myself in battle and honor my ancestors’ spirits. It’s just relatable to me.
7-13-2009 @ 10:52AM
"So while Wrynn could be considered wrong to use derogatory terms for orcs, the responsibility of the orcs for the evils here is rather high. Thrall may indeed be seeking to raise the orcs up from barbarism to being a civilized people, but there is a lot of evil which is to be undone"This is the only reason why Wrynn could be considered wrong? Hardly. As you say, Thrall is seeking to raise the orcs up from barbarism -- Wrynn sure supports that doesn't he? *sarcarsm* His attitude is blind and all "THEY'RE ALL BAD! THEY SHOULD ALL DIE!" *beats chest* Wrynn has always seemed like way more of a blind barbarian to me than the orcs.
7-13-2009 @ 11:09AM
@catharsis80Most of the Alliance don't share Wrynn's attitude. Alliance leaders know why he feels this way, and take this in stride. Let's face it, Wrynn was enslaved by the Horde and made to compete in blood sport for their entertainment. As the leader of the Horde, Thrall was aware of the King's enslavement. Doesn't this mean Thrall supported this fact? It took Wrynn escaping to gain his freedom, not any sense of "honor" or "loyalty" from the Horde.Honor indeed, sure.
7-13-2009 @ 11:25AM
@ToddI think you may be forgetting that Thrall's story was almost exactly the same -- he was forced to complete in gladiator games for humans. Strange thing is, he's been able to befriend humans, and doesn't hold it against them (i.e., Jaina). Can Wrynn say the same? No. He hasn't forgiven.
7-13-2009 @ 11:26AM
@ToddWrynn is a loose cannon, and while the Alliance may not share his attitude, he IS their current leader.
7-13-2009 @ 11:55AM
@amaxesorry, but the burning legion was on azeroth WELL before the orcs came along... they've only been around for something like 30 years, while the burning legion got brought to azeroth by the night elves something like 10000 years ago. To be completely accurate, everything thats gone wrong on azeroth over the course of the warcraft games is their fault, originally... theyre the ones who played with magic and caught the burning legion's attention, and then tried to summon sargeras to azeroth, for crying out loud. But we dont go around saying that the night elves are bad. Well, except fandral. That guy is a douche.ALL the races have their jerks. That doesnt mean the whole race is bad, and this goes to @ToddYes, the orcs practiced genocide against the draenei, which was undeniably a Bad Thing. But surely they deserve another chance. We dont hold all germans responsible for what happened in world war 2, do we? The nazi comparison might be a bit much, but i think it helps to get the point across there. And Putress and his buddies betrayed EVERYONE at the wrathgate, as you yourself pointed out... that wasnt the work of the horde, that was the work of a radical faction that splintered off, and then actually took over one of the horde's cities. And the blood elves siphoning power from mu'ru was, again, not everyone... that was almost exclusively the doing of the blood knights. And then the leader of the blood knights tried to atone for the actions of their people. While it was undeniably bad that it happened, at least she tried to atone. I dont see varian apologising to the defias, do you? The point i'm trying to get at (and am probably getting badly sidetracked from along the way) is that neither side are "the good guys". They've BOTH done things that they should be ashamed of, things that we would consider bad or evil, just as theyre both "good" in many ways.
7-13-2009 @ 12:02PM
@amaxeAlso, there's a reason the bronze dragonflight is sending people into the caverns of time to ensure that the dark portal OPENS, and the orcs come to azeroth... and thats that the world would be a lot worse off if it had demons instead of orcs, and the orcs were pivotal in preventing the burning legion from taking over azeroth. You can argue that the legion's successes in that war were due to the scourge, which were commanded then by the spirit of an orc, but i suspect that the legion would have found another way to get at azeroth even without that orc soul to use. I'm sure they could have used the spirit of some human warlock instead (i'm sure there were a few floating about the nether), and gotten a fairly similar result, but without the downside of a united force of humans, orcs, elves, dwarves, tauren, gnomes, trolls, and probably a friendly murloc or two getting together and ruining all their plans
7-13-2009 @ 12:11PM
@catharsis80"I think you may be forgetting that Thrall's story was almost exactly the same -- he was forced to complete in gladiator games for humans. Strange thing is, he's been able to befriend humans, and doesn't hold it against them (i.e., Jaina). Can Wrynn say the same? No. He hasn't forgiven."Thrall was a slightly different case. The Orcs were the invading force at the time, and unknown force too, new to Azeroth. Humans had no idea what they were dealing with. True, this does not bear excuses. However, now when both sides are equally aware and educated on what is really going on the Horde decided to enslave a prominent leader of the opposing faction (while not at war with, right?) and use him for blood sport.That sounds to me like a good reason to go to war. Now I sincerely believe Thrall is appalled by the actions of the Horde, but it's not like Thrall was in the dark of all this taking place.The Alliance has been without true leadership for a long while. Just so happens that Wrynn is the first person to step up to the plate and really take a stand. Maybe it's time to take that stand. Thrall has become a bit of a pussy, and that's hard to deny.With the way to Draenor now open, the Orcs can return home at any time. Yet they remain. The undead, the Forsaken, with undeath in general being an abomination, should take their leave. However, to keep things balanced 5 by 5, the lore won't head in that direction.
7-13-2009 @ 12:15PM
@EvelindaYeah, I'm still not sold on that one. Considering the Orcs were under the thumb and command of the Burning Legion during that time, I can't really say whether life would have been better off had the Dark Portal not been opened.Since the Burning Legion already had access to Draenor, and the opening of the Dark Portal added a conduit directly to Azeroth... I'm just not 100% sure this was a good thing.
7-13-2009 @ 12:27PM
@ToddNot just from a lore standpoint, but from a gameplay standpoint. Taking races out would be a step backwards, which is too much of a negative than the positive taking the lore route would be.
7-13-2009 @ 12:44PM
@Todd"With the way to Draenor now open, the Orcs can return home at any time."Yep. They can return home to a ruined, fragmented hunk of rocks floating around in space any time they want. Sounds like an absolutely brilliant plan to me.
7-13-2009 @ 12:54PM
@ToddYou seem to be a bit confused by the situation with Varian, so I wanted to give you a few details."Thrall was a slightly different case. The Orcs were the invading force at the time, and unknown force too, new to Azeroth. Humans had no idea what they were dealing with. True, this does not bear excuses. However, now when both sides are equally aware and educated on what is really going on the Horde decided to enslave a prominent leader of the opposing faction (while not at war with, right?) and use him for blood sport."First, the Horde didn't enslave Varian, that was Rehgar Earthfury. The "Arenas" he fought in were an underground circuit run by Goblin's known as the Crimson Ring, in which Rehgar took part for awhile on his own time away from his duties in the Horde. The one thing you also miss is that the Crimson Ring was actually open to all the races and factions. Night Elves and Humans often attended the various games in neutral areas like Dire Maul, and Log'Gosh (AKA Varian) was even hit on my night elves that heard of his gladiator prowess. Rehgar himself was even a gladiator owned by a human noble at one point in his life, put in games of death for the nobles sport. The arenas are not Horde specific but something many factions have done."That sounds to me like a good reason to go to war. Now I sincerely believe Thrall is appalled by the actions of the Horde, but it's not like Thrall was in the dark of all this taking place."He was not in the dark about his arena being used for neutral gladiator games, but he was in the dark about Varian because Varian himself didn't even know who he was. Everyone called him Lo'Gosh, which might I add, was an honorary name given to him by the Horde because he was such a badass. Varian was amnesiac, had no idea what his name was, and was considered at the time an Alliance deserter. It was not till he had already escaped that he learned his true name from Jaina Proudmoore. A human is a human in the end unless he give you a name that matters."With the way to Draenor now open, the Orcs can return home at any time. Yet they remain. The undead, the Forsaken, with undeath in general being an abomination, should take their leave. However, to keep things balanced 5 by 5, the lore won't head in that direction."Draenor does not exist. Outland exists, and it is basically 1/4th of a planet with another 1/2 of it being almost unlivable (Shadowmoon, Hellfire, Netherstorm). The orcs can not survive in Nagrand alone, not anymore. It was explained in one of the novels that even the southern lands after the First War were not enough to sustain the orcs, which is the main reason after his takeover that Orgrim Doomhammer started the Second War, to expand in the interests of survival, more then conquest. Even though many of those orcs did perish thus lowering the load of resources, a lot still lived on to this day, which is why the Horde is such a powerful force. Returning to a ball floating in the middle of the Twisting Nether is not in the best interest of the orcs.
7-13-2009 @ 1:06PM
I'm getting tired of the whole "The Alliance is racist and that makes them worse" argument.Is racism worse than murder? And are you honestly telling me that Horde races like the Forsaken aren't racist? Pretty sure the whole "All will know the wrath of the Forsaken" and "Death to the Scourge, and death to the living" thing kinda shows some racial superiority peaking through in their attitudes.
7-13-2009 @ 1:15PM
Sorry, but I don't buy the retcon (which is what WCIII effectively was). Read the official lore on the Blizz site. According to that, the foothold the Legion has here was on account of the opening of the portal. Indeed, the opening of the Portal was a legion plot. Prior to that they were banished from the realm.The Scourge are here because of a cult of orcs.Judging by their own lore, the COT instances don't really work for the Alliance. One could perhaps argue the aiding of Thrall was necessary... the Orcs already being here, some sort of dual effort was necessary. The Opening of the Portal? Blizz contradicts their own lore on that one. We have to let the Legion plot to open the portal succeed in order to prevent the success of the Legion later? Don't think so.The Alliance was badly damaged by the war, certain alliances were disrupted by the Horde races (remember the Belfs and Humans were once allied before the later troll wars).As Varian said, who knows what the world would have been like if the Orcs had not come? I can't help but see it would have been for the better. Not because Orcs as they are now are necessarily evil, but because when they came, they destroyed and the situation of the Alliance is a state of recovery from what the Orcs did to them.Yet we never see anything of the Orcs seeking to atone for the evil they did. On the other side, even the Internment camps could be seen as merciful: if you have a race of psychotics rampaging, you can either slaughter them or lock them up. The Alliance chose option #2TL: DR, I think Blizz decided to whitewash the Horde and it looks real inconsistent to me.Really, I cringe at how bad the rationale is for the Alliance. It's like Blizz designed these instances for the Horde POV and through in the Alliance reason to be involved as an afterthoughtWrynn is rather benign compared to the "Death to the Living" approach of the Forsaken. Moreover, when it comes to Wrynn and Garrosh, Wrynn is opposed to the Orcs because of what they did. Garrosh is of the opinion that these things of the past were a good thing.It's a big difference.Some Alliance may be racist, but the hatred and fear is not coming out of the blue, but from real evils done to the Alliance.
7-13-2009 @ 1:17PM
@ everyone bickering in this threadPlease brush up on your lore if you want to make accusations that one side is evil and one side is good. Its actually pretty blurred. People want to automatically assume Horde is the Bad Guys because they look the part, amirite? They're primitive and brutish and a lot of their races can be considered "ugly"... but from a lore perspective, a lot of the bad things they have done honestly weren't their fault. The Orcs warring with the Draenei was all because of demonic influence, they weren't in their right minds. They lived peacefully with the Draenei for quite some time until the Burning Legion stuck their hand in there, all because Kil'jaeden had a personal vendetta against his brother, Velen, who he viewed as a traitor for not accepting the gift of Sargeras.When the Orcs invaded Azeroth, they were still not of their own minds and they were merely the playthings and pawns of powers much greater than themselves. When the demonic curse on the orcs was finally broken, they were a shattered, lost and confused people. Orcs such as Thrall feel so much regret for what their people did to the world of Azeroth and they are trying to repair that.As for the Forsaken, Thrall barely even trusts them. Their motives are sketchy at best, but Thrall took pity on them and decided to help them out. As a Horde player, I think this is a Bad Idea because Sylvanas is hellbent on revenge on Arthas and the Scourge and after that who knows what direction they will go. As for the massacre at Wrathgate, the group of Forsaken who killed both factions were acting under the influence of Mal'Ganis, NOT Sylvanas. So they was honestly a seperate sect, not really respectful of the factions or situation at hand. They were just plain crazy. Undercity was bought back with blood, Mal'Ganis (possibly) killed and that sect of Forsaken were wiped out. Sylvanas was absolutely livid over what they did at Wrathgate. You can't call the entire Horde evil for that.Overall the Horde is a force of lost misfits, but they are far from bad. They are striving hard to find peace and just live their lives. The Forsaken want people to accept them as sentient, intelligent beings and not mindless monsters, the Orcs want forgiveness for what they did while affected by the demons and to just live in peace and try to mend their past and re-discover the power of shamanism etc. The Darkspear have given up the voodoo and cannibalism common among their cousins and just want understanding and protection from the other trolls, who don't like them very much and view the Darkspear tribe as weak. Tauren have a blood oath to Thrall for saving tauren hides from marauding centaurs and are overall the most peaceful and good natured race in WarCraft...As for blood elves... well, I'm not touching that one. I hate those jerks.But overall, I feel the Alliance has been really misguided and have done a lot of evil things of their own desire. They haven't had demonic influence for the poor choices they have made. Instead the humans are just power hungry, ignorant, and have a strong unwillingness to accept others. However, my main beef with Alliance is the Night Elves. Because of Azshara, Sargeras got the first taste of Azeroth and reached out with the Burning Legion to desecrate the world. The Great Sundering is directly the Night Elves fault. Their arrogance and growing addiction to power nearly destroyed Azeroth. And bourn from Night Elves are a few races who are pretty sinister and crazy; Blood Elves, Naga and Harpies all have Night Elven ancestry. Being one of the oldest races I guess they are prone to having a really long track record and mistakes to be made, but dear lord, their leader bowing to Sargeras was a pretty Big Mistake. They may be remorseful now and many now follow the peaceful path of druidism, but they have a lot of time they need to make up for.
7-13-2009 @ 1:25PM
This is a little off topic but isn't Jaina the leader of the alliance and Varian is just the leader of the humans specifically?
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