Officers' Quarters: Best in slot
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.The phrase "best in slot" has taken on an almost untouchable mythos. It's not hard to see why. The experts spend a large amount of time crunching numbers and evaluating items for every spec of each class. They write software just for the purpose of telling you what items are better. When those people say that an item is the best in slot, that's the one. That is the item for the slot, and no better item exists. Anything else is just a placeholder until you get the best.
Of course, a lot depends on what other gear you are wearing. Even so, as raiders, those best-in-slot pieces are highly desirable. But what if our best in slot isn't our main armor type?
Hi Scott,
Recently my guild has gotten into what's turning out to be a hot debate.
It all started when a Paladin and Shaman both rolled on a mail belt; now this item was a best in slot piece for the Paladin but the officer automatically dismissed the Paladin's roll because "Paladin's normally wear plate and Shaman normally wear mail" and this was the only reason that the Shaman was awarded the piece over the Paladin. The pally did state before it was awarded that it was a BiS piece for him, but that fell on deaf ears.
The majority of people in the guild feel the same way I do; that a best in slot item is a best in slot item regardless of its armor class/type; however, a small group which includes officers believes and I quote exactly "I just think a lot more then throwing a "zomg BiS" out there when an item drops is needed before armor class is taken down as consideration for who gets what loot."
This has not been settled yet, but I would think if the opinion of the minority/officers won then why would any class who uses "lesser armor types" want to join a guild that would not give them their Best in Slot item should it drop based on armor type?
How do other people feel about this issue? Is best in slot > armor type or does armor type outweigh best in slot?
Sincerely,
BiS Supporter
Players have asked me about this issue many times since Wrath launched. The homogenization of gear has created more such situations than in the past, and loot drama follows. So I'm finally dedicating a column to it, mostly so I can link it to people who ask me about it again in the future.
If I'm coming across snarky, it's because I really don't see two sides to this issue. To me, it's cut and dry: Best in slot does not trump armor type. I agree 100% with Supporter's officers. However, I am also curious if other guilds see this issue differently, and how they handle it, if so.
For this column, I'm assuming your guild uses a rolling system like Supporter's, with the officers deciding who is eligible to roll on a given piece. It's a common system, but it's also the most prone to this type of loot drama.
Here are the reasons why, in my opinion, you can't allow best in slot to trump armor type.
1. Classes limited by armor type would be at a severe disadvantage. They have a smaller pool of items to choose from. In the case of Resto shamans, they can theoretically wear leather and cloth, but those armor types aren't well itemized for their spec. Most of these items have spirit, which is virtually useless to a Resto shaman. So the pool of items for a Resto shaman is limited to spell power mail. All of a Resto shaman's best-in-slot pieces are most likely from that pool.
Holy paladins have a wider pool, since both spell power plate and spell power mail are itemized similarly. Some BIS items will be from each pool, and paladins can wear either for each slot. By giving paladins and shamans equal priority on a mail piece, your shaman might have to wait a long time before upgrading a slot that's also BIS for a paladin. If you don't give equal priority, the paladin might have to settle for a different plate upgrade, but odds are he or she will still get an upgrade from that raiding tier, even if it's not the absolute BIS. That brings me to my next point.
2. Higher armor drops would go to waste. Let's assume that the Holy paladin were allowed to roll on this BIS belt and he won it. It's BIS, so clearly that benefits the raid. However, the shaman didn't get an upgrade. Now suppose on the next boss, a plate spell power belt drops. Assuming no other Holy pallies are present (which is all too common these days), that belt is in the fast lane to Shardsville.
On the other hand, if the paladin is denied the mail belt, then the shaman gets an upgrade (that is probably BIS for the spec), and the paladin gets an upgrade from the plate belt. It might not be optimal for the paladin, but it's still better, and you've improved the raid twice instead of once. The next time the mail belt drops, if no shamans need it, it can go to the paladin and improve the raid again.
You'll always have wasted loot no matter what. Some items are just plain garbage. But you can reduce the waste, and this is one way to do it.
3. For some classes and specs, the BIS list changes frequently. I'm not even referring to adding new tiers of loot, although obviously that also affects the BIS set for your spec. I'm just talking game mechanics and class changes. For example, Patch 3.2 will be the third major patch in a row that changes item evaluations for paladins of one spec or another. And in between those major patches have been other changes that affect item weights, like the infamous Divine Storm hotfix nerf.
What is BIS today may not be BIS tomorrow. There's nothing any of us can do about that. And because of that fact, as officers, it doesn't make sense to let someone play the BIS card for special privileges.
4. Finally, the loot system would put a massive burden on the officers to know which items are BIS for every slot, for every spec in the game. Sure, we could just take everyone's word for it, but that can quickly lead down a dangerous path. Supporter's officers recognized this and acknowledged it in their response. It's just too easy for someone to make that claim for every piece they want. And unless someone else in the raid plays that spec and knows the itemization weights equally well, no one could refute the assertion. The burden would fall on the officers to know whether that person is right.
If you haven't been able to tell already, I play a paladin. Holy is not my main spec, but we've been short on healers all summer, so I've done more healing than I'd like. Personally, I'd never roll on spell power mail over a Resto shaman. And I'd never roll on DPS leather over a rogue or a druid. If I really want a nonplate piece, I can wait my turn. It's better for the raid, it's better for the officers who deal with loot, and it's better for my fellow players who need those items and can't equip every armor type like I can.
Ultimately, Blizzard could do us all a favor and make sure every spec's BIS pieces have the right armor type. I honestly don't think it would be that difficult to do so. Most specs are already there. DPS plate seems to be the most problematic area, along with Balance leather and Elemental mail. But that's only a few specs out of 27 that have a significant armor type problem. Ulduar spell power plate will be much more desirable after 3.2.
If Blizzard could get their itemization in line with armor type across the board, it would be helpful to players, guilds, and their officers, making loot decisions easier and reducing drama. I hope they're able to do so at some point. Until then, we all have to deal with the loot as it's been designed.
/salute
Filed under: Guilds, Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 11)
Bronwyn Jul 13th 2009 3:00PM
@Treason:
What you fail to remember is that each armor class is worth SEVERAL items to roll on, so there is STILL a disconnect.
I'm sorry but it's flat out unfair to clothies, leather wearers and mail wearers for people who can wear multiple armor classes to roll against them with the same priority. I am *not* saying that a plate wearer should not be able to have a mail piece ever, but if there is a shaman who needs it, I think they should get priority. It's very frustrating when you lose out on your piece to someone who can wear "higher" armor types only to find the next drop is plate and you can't use it.
Mordockk Jul 13th 2009 1:22PM
We had this discussion last week when a ret pally was trying to roll on an enhancement shaman piece.
I think some people immediately see an ilvl upgrade with some cool green stats and want to wear it.
I agree with the columnwriter tho, you should do the polite thing and pass the upgrade to the(in this case) shaman considering he won't be able to roll on your plate spell power gear. You can argue the whole BiS thing but.....
...just try not to make yourself look like a loot whore.
Mordockk Jul 13th 2009 1:27PM
oh and another thing. My guild tends to favor healers/tanks to gear them up first...with tokens and spellpower gear for dps/heals(we usually let heals roll or give to them). We use loot council.
We mainly do this for progression because gear will def help your raid more if its on the tank or healer....gear won't help get you out of the fire.
West Jul 13th 2009 1:15PM
Being a GM of a small guild I agree, but I feel if main spec does not want it off spec can roll for it rather than shard it.
Qalor Jul 13th 2009 1:17PM
I completely disagree with this article. For my guild, anyone is allowed to take any piece of gear they are willing to spend the dkp for, regardless of armor type, as long as it's for their main spec. Here are our reasons why, the counters to the points listed above:
1. Classes limited by armor type would be at a severe disadvantage. Not an issue because random loot is random. We've gone 2 full raid lockouts now with 0 conqueror items dropping. Should we then allow paladins, priests and warlocks higher priority on other items because they're at a disadvantage for tier drops?
2. Higher armor drops would go to waste. Random is random. It's much more likely that a) people will pass on the higher armor drop if it's not a very good upgrade and there's a better one available or b) the other people of that armor type will snap the higher one up. Can it happen? Sure. It can also happen that certain items never ever drop. Is it fair that alt raider #23 with -1,000 dkp automatically gets an item on the random day they show up even though the Paladin and Warrior show up every week and just don't happen to have the right armor class?
3. For some classes and specs, the BIS list changes frequently. Not the players' fault. If it changes, it changes. The same can happen for any class. Maybe next week they'll change things and armor pen suddenly sucks for enhancement shaman...do they still get priority on a mail armor pen wrist over the warrior it's good for?
4. Finally, the loot system would put a massive burden on the officers to know which items are BIS for every slot, for every spec in the game. My solution listed above is easier. Officers don't have to know a thing about it other than what role the item was designed for (dps, tank, heal). The players sort their priorities out themselves, and players often help each other to figure out what they should be shooting for.
Terethall Jul 13th 2009 1:23PM
Your problem is not gear itemization.
Your problem is that you USE DKP.
Honestly???
Valartha Jul 13th 2009 1:24PM
The author did state that for the purposes of the article, a simple /roll system is being used. Your system is different, and therefore some/all of the article would then not apply.
Knid Jul 13th 2009 1:38PM
I can only assume the OP is specifically talking about a holy paladin and elemental shaman. The stats desired for both roles are the same and in all situations are considered BiS for both.
As an elemental shaman, I disagree with the OP for a couple reasons. The first is that the stats desired for an ele shaman are spellpower, crit, haste. This is similar to holy paladins except that stats like mp5 and spirit have zero effect on our class. At least with mp5, paladins have a trash stat with some effect. In 3.2, that trash stat will be improved while the mana regeneration/efficiency through other means will be reduced. This means that the mail belt you want today may not be the mail belt you want tomorrow. However, the mail belt the elemental shaman wants now is the only real option for him.
Second, if you think the holy pally itemization is bad in Ulduar, you should look at the elemental shaman itemization. It's significantly worse. We've been raiding Ulduar since is came out (albeit casually) and have gotten one non-tier piece upgrade. I've gotten one tier piece from badges and one from Emalon.
Lastly, as am elemental shaman, Blizzard has put zero items from the badge vendor that are useful to us. Remember how I said that spirit and mp5 is useless for an elemental shaman? It's akin to putting spirit on tanking gear or strength on resto druid gear. It's that useless. Effectively, the only opportunity for upgrade for the elemental shaman is in Ulduar with low drop rates and some items aren't even available (ever see ele shammy boots in U25? They aren't there).
Tridus Jul 13th 2009 2:01PM
DKP changes the dynamic considerably. You're actually spending something at that point. Rolls are one thing, but when the mail belt is going to cost you 1000 DKP and the plate belt costs 1 DKP (unopposed) and is almost as good, you're likely going to think twice. A sane person at that point would take the plate, then take the mail the next time it drops. A crazy person would pay the DKP, but then since they earned that DKP, there's no problem anyway. (It now means the Pally can't take the weapon both the Pally and the Shaman want.)
Within the confines of a /roll system, the dynamic is different. In that case I agree with the article. As a Priest, if you don't enforce restrictions to protect some specs, it gets totally out of hand. Ever seen one cloth item rolled on by Priests, Mages, Warlocks, Balance & Resto Druids, Elemental & Resto Shaman, and Holy Paladins? I have, once. It was ridiculous given how much leather/mail/plate there is.
Marita Jul 13th 2009 1:17PM
I'm a disc priest, and so I'm used to roll only for cloth, as that's the only thing I can wear.
So it's hard for me to understand how can a Paladin want an item that is not his strongest armor (plate)
I mean: if in a drop a super cloth waist appears, that can be used by EVERY spell caster, how can be fare give it to the one (plate) who can choose other armor type, over the ones who have only one choise?
the difference with plate and mail is smaller, but the point is the same:
If A can't wear plate, only mail, and B both: is unfair giving the item to B, because he has more options to get good loot than A.
That's my opinion :)
Nick S Jul 13th 2009 1:20PM
I generally agree that cloth should go to clothies, but for a Holy Paladin in a raid setting armor value is pretty inconsequential.
Zuckerdachs Jul 13th 2009 2:28PM
It's not the armor value that's the point - it's that some people can ONLY use a limited amount of gear based on armor CLASS, and so if priests can only roll on cloth, then pallies should only be allowed to roll on plate unless it is uncontested. If everyone was allowed to roll on every piece of gear they *could* wear, then paladins would be geared before anyone else in the raid, and that's neither fair nor good for the raid group as a whole.
Plan Jul 13th 2009 11:40PM
"It's not the armor value that's the point - it's that some people can ONLY use a limited amount of gear based on armor CLASS..."
Not to mention the fact that with the advent of Spirit as a desirable stat, caster Shamans have very limited opportunities for optimal gear.
- They cannot use plate
- The vast majority of cloth and leather items have Spirit on them
- There are far fewer pieces with mp5
- Many caster weapons have Spirit, making them sub-optimal for Shamans
- Paladins already enjoy access to gear that can ONLY be used by them
All things considered, for a caster Shaman to gear up (with gear optimized for Shamans), he or she has a limited number of drops that can be used -- or used to great effect. In Naxxramas, there was so much holy Plate that most guilds were sharding those Paladin pieces within a few weeks, and while Ulduar may not be as skewed, it remains true that NO OTHER CLASS can use those plate pieces with spell power on them, unless we're talking about Warriors who like to take holy plate that's going to be sharded, just so they can walk around Dalaran wearing it to piss people off.
(Or Hunters who think they have the right to roll on mail healing gear -- I've seen that too, having lost a roll on the T7.5 Resto gloves to a Hunter in VoA.)
If your raid does allow "downgrading" to a lower armor class, let the Paladins take cloth, which drops in abundance. But it's a big slap in the face to make Shamans share loot with plate-wearers when they've already got so few choices of their own.
Nick S Jul 13th 2009 1:18PM
If a BiS item is out of my armor type (I'm a Hunter, so I'm talking about Leather here), I typically let guildies who wear that type have it first, then roll on it once they've each had a chance to get it.
emptyrepublic Jul 13th 2009 1:18PM
I agree with the author of this article 110%. Not sure what else to say.
Terethall Jul 13th 2009 1:19PM
I agree completely.
As a warlock, there are pieces of elemental mail and balance leather out there that I would love to roll on. Of course, I can't. So why would it be fair if elemental Shaman and balance Druids got to roll on cloth? You may attract more Shaman and druids that way, but you'll quickly alienate those at a disadvantage.
Fuzzbutt Jul 13th 2009 1:22PM
I completely agree and was hoping this is where this article would go. One of the BiS pieces for Resto Shaman is a pair of cloth boots, but I wouldn't roll on those over a cloth class that needed it. I don't particularly like the mail boots, but I'm still not going to screw someone else out of their BiS when they have less gear options.
I understand that everyone wants their BiS, but if you take a piece that would decrease your performance from your BiS by less than 1% and let someone who actually HAS to use that piece take it, you'll cause less drama and probably get it the next time around.
Beyond that, it will increase your reputation as a good team player (as opposed to a loot whore) and make your raid want to take you again in the future, given the option between you and someone of equal skill that makes a huge fuss whenever they don't get their way on loot.
Rylka Jul 13th 2009 1:21PM
I don't know how often this would come up, if ever, but what would the evaluation be if say the mail belt were BIS for the paladin, but it was not the BIS for anyone else who might could use it?
Even if the belt were an upgrade for other classes, would the fact that it was BIS for the pally make a difference? If the pally was allowed to roll and won, that would supposedly mean that they would not be needing an upgrade in that slot for quite a while. Also, if the pally won the belt, it would potentially mean that the raid as a whole got the maximum possible upgrade since there is literally nothing better for the raid in that class/slot.
All this is considering that the item is NOT best in slot for other classes. If it was BIS for plate and non-plate wearing classes I understand fully the author's position that classes limited to wearing chain should have priority.
dave mclean Jul 13th 2009 4:00PM
If the item was BiS for the pally and not BiS for the other classes, it probably wouldn't be much of an upgrade for the other classes.
Marita Jul 13th 2009 5:52PM
if the item is BiS for the pally, and the pally alone, i bet the item is plate
there's no other way around it