The Care and Feeding of Warriors: Where the Action is Not

Honestly, I'd like to rant more about how Warrior DPS is still way too low in PvE. Especially since I keep seeing posts on the forums from the blues telling me classes with equal or better DPS are in fact too low. It's sort of maddening, really. But as much as I'd like to go on a written rampage about encounter design serving as an arbitrary limiter to warrior DPS in Ulduar, and how paradoxically my DPS is at its best on fights that are supposed to be hard mode fights (this week, for instance, my personal highest DPS numbers were recorded on XT - 002's Heartbreaker mode, where two Warriors including myself finally managed to break the top four and were ahead of the other hybrids) due to the mechanics of those fights actually allowing the warrior some uninterrupted DPS time.
But unfortunately, a whole lot has been said about tanking this past week. So as maddening, vexing, downright baffling as I find the encounter design limitations of Warrior DPS in some cases (really, not much can irritate me like knowing my DPS time was broken up by big chunks of having to run away, run around, get out of the way of lightning or exploding seeds or any of the sixteen things Mimiron does that make me unhappy to be alive) that rant's going to have to stay confined to these opening paragraphs. (For a simulation of what I sound like during a raid, get four angry woodpeckers and have them attack your keyboard while you scream "Oh, COME ON" every few seconds and imagine you're the Gravity Bomb again.)
So what happened with tanking this week, you ask? Well, more was said about block, about avoidance, and about tanking specced players as DPS and in PvP. So let's go over what was said.
First off, let's talk about the avoidance changes. As I stated last week, I am aware that these changes will hit some classes harder than warrior tanks, who are one of two tanking classes that can use all three stats (Dodge, Block and Parry) so that they don't have to depend on any one of them. However, what I saw in the discussion that interested me was the following quote from Ghostcrawler.
- This is also not the big avoidance "come to Naaru" that some posters predicted. Overall, we think avoidance is too high and the game would work better with lower tank avoidance, but suddenly dropping everyone's avoidance by 20 or 30% would be a very big change with many ramifications for healing and gear among other things. It would also feel like a big nerf to the many players who didn't understand why it would be better for the game in the long term. But I still expect it is coming at some point.
We all remember Sunwell Radiance, which was put in purely because fully geared Druid tanks who'd been farming Hyjal and Black Temple were almost unstoppable by physical damage, they'd dodge almost everything a boss would throw at them. It was kludgy and inelegant and had the effect of punishing a tank for having made the reasonable assumption that he or she was supposed to use all of this gear that benefited him. If tweaking dodge downwards and parry upwards keeps this from happening again, or allows for an equilibrium in encounter design between avoidance (dodge and parry) and mitigation (block, armor, stamina) then that's fine. It has to take into account those thanks who can't use as broad a selection, of course, because at this point I'm frankly terrified for the future of the warrior class if warrior tanks become too popular. In the past few months the developers have shown a frank willingness to tour the warrior protection tree and its design far in excess of its actual performance in the game at the moment.
What I believe we need to see in encounter design is a more even distribution of damage that is lowered by our various mitigation options (returning Block to a place where it's actually a worthwhile stat) and the occasional big whack of damage that cooldowns and avoidance can be counted on to reduce. This has to be done without placing any one tanking class (not even Warriors, as much as I love them) on top of the totem pole, because if one class is clearly superior it will be chosen over other tanks, and then it will be nerfed. Furthermore, an avoidance heavy paradigm in tanking design actually goes against the core of the class as tanks. Warriors are supposed to be hit. Laying on the dodge so that you take as little damage as possible leads to rage generation that looks like a crazy amusement park ride, all dizzying highs and stomach lurching lows.
Now that we've talked about that, what about warrior tanks as DPS and in PvP?
- We want Prot warriors to do decent damage in PvE. We don't want them to do as good damage as actual dps specs -- there needs to be a trade-off for such high survivability. This means we need threat multipliers or you won't be able to actually hold aggro. It's okay if Shield Slam can make big (yet not absurd) numbers, since you don't Shield Slam all that much. That's fun. As I said above though, it would probably work better if Shield Slam hit hard because your Strength was high, not because you built a gimmicky set.
Yes, Warriors (and other classes to some extent) are always going to need threat multipliers, but we have to always remember that threat multipliers are never as compelling, lead to scaling issues (there's a reason Paladin tanks are still the kings of AoE tanking - take a paladin tank to Emalon and give him the adds to tank and his DPS will rival some of the actual DPS players, despite what Ghostcrawler has said above about not wanting tanks to do as much DPS as DPS specs) and in general lead to the sensation of 'overgearing the instance' which keeps being brought up, when you can't hold initial aggro unless everyone stands around doing nothing for a few seconds because the mobs don't hit the warrior tank hard enough for him to generate any rage to get threat in the first place.
In general I find this idea that warrior tanks are asking for (or even want) to do as much DPS as pure DPS specs, or even hybrids specced to DPS, to be kind of absurd. We just don't want to be the lowest DPS of the tanks. At present, there's absolutely no danger of a tanking warrior doing as much DPS as any other tanking class, especially when not tanking. If you have three tanks in a fight, and one of them is a Warrior, he'll be by far the bottom of the barrel. (My fresh 80 DK tank, who has only been gearing up for a week or so, can do as much damage as a tank spec as my Ulduar geared warrior - all hail Howling Blast.) This is not just important for hard modes where you need to squeeze as much DPS as possible from an encounter and therefore will always choose tanks who do more DPS while tanking, it's also important because of the impact seeing other tanks put out twice to three times as much DPS has on the fun factor for warrior tanks. There's nothing fun about feeling like last year's model.
In short (too late) it's not that I even object to what's being said so much as I find the lack of motion for the warrior class perplexing. Warriors as tanks are the twitchiest, require the most effort to tank well with (I do not recommend you roll a DK for tanking if you want to continue to enjoy warrior tanking) and while they have a very nice assortment of skills and talents they're still at the absolute bottom of the totem pole for DPS while tanking. No matter what anyone says, a Prot Warrior who will not be tanking for a particular fight is of much greater utility to the raid if he uses Dual Talent Specialization and goes Arms or Fury than he will be trying to pump out damage in his tank spec. It's simply not tenable.
Next week, hopefully I get to have that rant about encounter design and DPS warriors.
Filed under: Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, News items, Instances, Raiding, Bosses, Buffs, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors, Forums






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
Sleutel Jul 16th 2009 7:25PM
I heartily second everything you've written here. It's like Blizzard isn't even listening. Don't any of them play Prot Warriors?
mtsadowski Jul 17th 2009 10:08AM
To help warriors with their threat, couldn't they have Thunder Clap cost no rage and just be on a cool-down, much like a paladin's Consecrate? That might help with threat.
PodPeople Jul 17th 2009 1:16PM
consecrate costs nothing? holy shit, where the hell did all my mana go then? consecrate costs mana, a LOT of mana. L2Pally
Sleutel Jul 17th 2009 6:56PM
mtsadowski: That's a terrible idea.
(1) It's one of our exactly three AOE threat abilities (Thunder Clap, Shockwave, Damage Shield), and it's the ONLY one that's 360 and active (i.e., I trigger it myself vs. being a passive effect)--putting it on a longer CD is not good.
(2) The problem with threat generation is that Rage is currently really spiky--either you're rage-starved or overflowing. Making a single ability free isn't going to fix that.
(3) It's pretty rare that I don't have the Rage to TC when I need it.
(4) TC isn't a Warrior tank's biggest threat-generator (not on single targets like bosses, anyway).
(5) Warrior threat isn't the biggest problem right now--DPS, reliance on Block, etc. are all bigger concerns. And changing TC isn't going to fix that.
Karilyn Jul 16th 2009 7:26PM
That Q&A was so utterly depressing.
I've never felt the desire to reroll until now. I seriously doubt they will ever give Warriors a fair examination until a big name Warrior like Cider, Xav, or Kungen rerolls.
Then again, I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The day I quit being a Warrior is the day I quit WoW. At this rate, I may be finally going to retire from WoW for good.
It's not fun being 4th place in absolutely everything that a tank can do.
DecoyTPH Jul 16th 2009 7:49PM
I agree. For the first month or two after 3.1 (when it became apparent Warrior tanks were in relatively dire straights and that little to no help would be coming any time soon), I was sorely tempted to drop my beloved Warrior for something that actually receives developer attention.
That inclination passed to some degree when the first few bits of 3.2 news began to leak.. "Block boost? A dps buff (however small)?? Rage-On-Avoidance??! Wow, cool!" That lasted all of one week until they began nerfing other abilities to "compensate" and began talking about how Warrior tanks are on par with Druids and how they're exactly where the developers want them to be.
I think I will be rerolling, quite quickly in fact. Thanks Ghostcrawler. No, really.. Thank *you*.. I was naive enough to think all classes were treated equally. But it's become obvious to me that you have blinders on and I can no longer force myself to hope for change.
mitchty Jul 17th 2009 12:17AM
Dk tank here. All I can say is that there are more dk tanks around mainly due to the current state of prot warriors. Its rare I see a warrior tank around lately and frankly, I think it sucks too. I've seen druid tanks picked over warrior tanks in raids. Lately it seems warriors have a choice of threat or survival, no real big in between like dk's, pallies, and druids. Its sad because some encounters seem like they have a niche for a warrior to tank. With intervene some hardmodes would have to be easier than they are for me now spamming heart strike 6x in a row and hoping the rogues are tricking often.
I would say they should adopt a rage model similar to runic power. It works loads better than rage mechanics and it isn't like they don't have an existing model to work off of. Sure it would need testing as the rune/runic power system is quite different than rage being the only power source.
As for shield block, I have no answer for fixing that now broken mechanic. Maybe just make it a flat % based on strength that amounts to just plain mitigation maybe? Then have the shield block gear add a % on top of that. So you could choose mitigation over avoidance rather easily.
In either case i'm leveling my warrior as prot as the current state can't last forever (can it?). And charge is just too fun, as is death grip too but I can't help but just laugh while I charge at mobs.
I'd rather all tanks be on equal footing than the current state. I'll back up any tank class on that matter. Dpswise I don't know what to say, I pretty much only tank so don't even know what dps my dk can do. :)
Nick S Jul 17th 2009 1:34AM
I occasionally respec my Paladin to Prot, and while there are some minor survivability issues, the threat from a Protadin is miles ahead of Warrior threat.
Something really needs to be done.
As for DPS, yeah... missing some there. IMO the 10% Fury nerf was needless. But then I play a Hunter, and we're feeling the hurt on most Ulduar bosses, too, and no buffs coming in 3.2.
Dharmabhum Jul 17th 2009 9:15AM
Prot pally here. I don't know what you're talking about in terms of survival. I don't have as many cooldowns as DKs, but I don't really die as a protadin. In raids, healers are always good enough to keep me up and I do well enough to mitigate and avoid what I can. Alone, well there's a myriad of combinations of seals and judgements that keeps me up and soloing quite a bit of content.
Pally survivability... bubble question mark.
Dharmabhum Jul 17th 2009 9:19AM
Oops, also, I sympathize to some extent with warriors and their lack of decent dps while balancing threat and survivability. As you can tell, I think pallies do fine for survivability and there's not much I can say about threat other than I DON"T EVEN HAVE TO TRY ANYMORE. It would be nice to have everyone on equal footing but who knows when that will ever be clear to the developers, much less rise to a point of being a priority.
Jonisjalopy Jul 16th 2009 7:31PM
I share your pain, Boss.
I have been leveling a DK, as well, thinking that I might actually feel like a viable tank again. Sure I can still "do" raids and the like and sure others will still take a Warrior tank, but given the option I think they would opt for someone who can have better tanking utility AND do more DPS.
DragonFireKai Jul 17th 2009 5:52AM
You picked a bad time to reroll to a DK tank. By the time you're capable of tanking abything of consequence, the 3.2 nerfs will have kicked in, and DKs will be far below warriors in tanking effectiveness.
Ik Jul 16th 2009 7:39PM
Matthew, fantastic writeup as always, but perhaps a small favour - could you start using pictures other than screenies of your toon(s) as the attention grabbing image on the landing page?
Bod Jul 16th 2009 7:43PM
sympathies to warriors out there - lucky to have chosen to level my dk for wrath and not my warrior, every time i see yet another one of your toys given to another tanking class and nothing given back to you it makes me die a bit. Silence pull to pallies, hell even DS in the next patch, and still as unwieldy aoe tanking as before...hell even druids got 360 to improve their quality of life.
I don't understand why, I think Bliz are stuck in the past and determined to punish warriors. It's a shame.
ohsnap Jul 17th 2009 12:07AM
you do realize taht pallys have only 1 cd to tank right.....so thats partialy why we got the buff
Bod Jul 17th 2009 7:15AM
actually, with a glyph you have 2...it wasn't my intent to turn this into pally bashing but you sure have had a lot of new toys recently, and you're about to get a bunch of new ones in 3.2. Meanwhile prot sits there with bugger all. If you don't appreciate that to the extent that you need to post an ill-informed comment here, you've either never played a warrior tank, or you're just griefing. Either way you'll get no audience here.
Iblis Jul 17th 2009 10:29AM
What Glpyh gives Pallies a second defensive cool down? I'd like to pick that one up.
Bod Jul 17th 2009 10:58AM
Glyph of Salvation
Which given the huge comparative threat lead that pallies have over other tanks at the moment is more than viable - our pallies even manage to use it in vezax, about as threat starved an environment as they can be in.
Deq Jul 16th 2009 8:01PM
I know this sounds a bit cheezy but Karilyn has a point. We aren't being heard. I don't think rerolling is the answer. After all, it's a slow to get a response. Also last time Warriors seemed to disappear, they just made DKs in response. So what if we disappeared quite suddenly and in a very loud way? I'm talking about a "Walk-out" of sorts. We should find one day, when Warriors are most needed, and simply not log in on our warrior toons. I already hear the responses "I'll get /gkicked if I don't show up for raid" but half of you are already talking about rerolling anyways. WE could further the effect by forming a "march" on a server and rolling level 1 warriors and running from one end of Azeroth to the other. Even if it doesn't accomplish a thing, you will always remember having the most fun on a WARRIOR.
Rahziel Jul 16th 2009 8:47PM
Amen Brother!!! I would tell anyone I knew... in the streets, on the tweets, azeroth.... everyone!!! About the Million Warrior March.... Get your fraps ready its going to be EPIC!!!!