The Care and Feeding of Warriors: Where the Action is Not

Honestly, I'd like to rant more about how Warrior DPS is still way too low in PvE. Especially since I keep seeing posts on the forums from the blues telling me classes with equal or better DPS are in fact too low. It's sort of maddening, really. But as much as I'd like to go on a written rampage about encounter design serving as an arbitrary limiter to warrior DPS in Ulduar, and how paradoxically my DPS is at its best on fights that are supposed to be hard mode fights (this week, for instance, my personal highest DPS numbers were recorded on XT - 002's Heartbreaker mode, where two Warriors including myself finally managed to break the top four and were ahead of the other hybrids) due to the mechanics of those fights actually allowing the warrior some uninterrupted DPS time.
But unfortunately, a whole lot has been said about tanking this past week. So as maddening, vexing, downright baffling as I find the encounter design limitations of Warrior DPS in some cases (really, not much can irritate me like knowing my DPS time was broken up by big chunks of having to run away, run around, get out of the way of lightning or exploding seeds or any of the sixteen things Mimiron does that make me unhappy to be alive) that rant's going to have to stay confined to these opening paragraphs. (For a simulation of what I sound like during a raid, get four angry woodpeckers and have them attack your keyboard while you scream "Oh, COME ON" every few seconds and imagine you're the Gravity Bomb again.)
So what happened with tanking this week, you ask? Well, more was said about block, about avoidance, and about tanking specced players as DPS and in PvP. So let's go over what was said.
First off, let's talk about the avoidance changes. As I stated last week, I am aware that these changes will hit some classes harder than warrior tanks, who are one of two tanking classes that can use all three stats (Dodge, Block and Parry) so that they don't have to depend on any one of them. However, what I saw in the discussion that interested me was the following quote from Ghostcrawler.
- This is also not the big avoidance "come to Naaru" that some posters predicted. Overall, we think avoidance is too high and the game would work better with lower tank avoidance, but suddenly dropping everyone's avoidance by 20 or 30% would be a very big change with many ramifications for healing and gear among other things. It would also feel like a big nerf to the many players who didn't understand why it would be better for the game in the long term. But I still expect it is coming at some point.
We all remember Sunwell Radiance, which was put in purely because fully geared Druid tanks who'd been farming Hyjal and Black Temple were almost unstoppable by physical damage, they'd dodge almost everything a boss would throw at them. It was kludgy and inelegant and had the effect of punishing a tank for having made the reasonable assumption that he or she was supposed to use all of this gear that benefited him. If tweaking dodge downwards and parry upwards keeps this from happening again, or allows for an equilibrium in encounter design between avoidance (dodge and parry) and mitigation (block, armor, stamina) then that's fine. It has to take into account those thanks who can't use as broad a selection, of course, because at this point I'm frankly terrified for the future of the warrior class if warrior tanks become too popular. In the past few months the developers have shown a frank willingness to tour the warrior protection tree and its design far in excess of its actual performance in the game at the moment.
What I believe we need to see in encounter design is a more even distribution of damage that is lowered by our various mitigation options (returning Block to a place where it's actually a worthwhile stat) and the occasional big whack of damage that cooldowns and avoidance can be counted on to reduce. This has to be done without placing any one tanking class (not even Warriors, as much as I love them) on top of the totem pole, because if one class is clearly superior it will be chosen over other tanks, and then it will be nerfed. Furthermore, an avoidance heavy paradigm in tanking design actually goes against the core of the class as tanks. Warriors are supposed to be hit. Laying on the dodge so that you take as little damage as possible leads to rage generation that looks like a crazy amusement park ride, all dizzying highs and stomach lurching lows.
Now that we've talked about that, what about warrior tanks as DPS and in PvP?
- We want Prot warriors to do decent damage in PvE. We don't want them to do as good damage as actual dps specs -- there needs to be a trade-off for such high survivability. This means we need threat multipliers or you won't be able to actually hold aggro. It's okay if Shield Slam can make big (yet not absurd) numbers, since you don't Shield Slam all that much. That's fun. As I said above though, it would probably work better if Shield Slam hit hard because your Strength was high, not because you built a gimmicky set.
Yes, Warriors (and other classes to some extent) are always going to need threat multipliers, but we have to always remember that threat multipliers are never as compelling, lead to scaling issues (there's a reason Paladin tanks are still the kings of AoE tanking - take a paladin tank to Emalon and give him the adds to tank and his DPS will rival some of the actual DPS players, despite what Ghostcrawler has said above about not wanting tanks to do as much DPS as DPS specs) and in general lead to the sensation of 'overgearing the instance' which keeps being brought up, when you can't hold initial aggro unless everyone stands around doing nothing for a few seconds because the mobs don't hit the warrior tank hard enough for him to generate any rage to get threat in the first place.
In general I find this idea that warrior tanks are asking for (or even want) to do as much DPS as pure DPS specs, or even hybrids specced to DPS, to be kind of absurd. We just don't want to be the lowest DPS of the tanks. At present, there's absolutely no danger of a tanking warrior doing as much DPS as any other tanking class, especially when not tanking. If you have three tanks in a fight, and one of them is a Warrior, he'll be by far the bottom of the barrel. (My fresh 80 DK tank, who has only been gearing up for a week or so, can do as much damage as a tank spec as my Ulduar geared warrior - all hail Howling Blast.) This is not just important for hard modes where you need to squeeze as much DPS as possible from an encounter and therefore will always choose tanks who do more DPS while tanking, it's also important because of the impact seeing other tanks put out twice to three times as much DPS has on the fun factor for warrior tanks. There's nothing fun about feeling like last year's model.
In short (too late) it's not that I even object to what's being said so much as I find the lack of motion for the warrior class perplexing. Warriors as tanks are the twitchiest, require the most effort to tank well with (I do not recommend you roll a DK for tanking if you want to continue to enjoy warrior tanking) and while they have a very nice assortment of skills and talents they're still at the absolute bottom of the totem pole for DPS while tanking. No matter what anyone says, a Prot Warrior who will not be tanking for a particular fight is of much greater utility to the raid if he uses Dual Talent Specialization and goes Arms or Fury than he will be trying to pump out damage in his tank spec. It's simply not tenable.
Next week, hopefully I get to have that rant about encounter design and DPS warriors.
Filed under: Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, News items, Instances, Raiding, Bosses, Buffs, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors, Forums
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 5)
Josin Jul 17th 2009 12:44AM
This was done a few years back. Warriors all rolled level 1 gnomes and brought down one of the servers.
As such, discussing the idea of repeating it is enough to get you a forum ban on the official forums.
Though honestly, I'm beginning to think its one of the few viable options left.
Hm... any warriors want to join me in chipping in to get Ghostcrawler a pony ride? There's gotta be places that bring ponies around for kids to ride... why not send one to Blizz HQ?
lethian Jul 16th 2009 9:03PM
grats now u guys kinda know how rogues like my younger bro have felt for quite a while.... blizz does not listen
Sqtsquish Jul 16th 2009 9:10PM
as much as I love my rogue and warrior I must admit that from both I have sadly come to realize that sooner or later you may get a buff but never as big as the total of what they have taken away and never have u have hoped.
Sqtsquish Jul 16th 2009 9:02PM
The only way that warrior tanking is gonna be useful again is if blizz decides to nerf every other tanking class at least to the point that they are at least close to equal with us. Then agin if they did that they'd lose 50% of server population being pally tanks and dks.
Dave Jul 16th 2009 9:18PM
Whining that paladin tanks bang out high DPS on Emalon seems akin to crying that a holy priests can hit 10k by spamming holy nova on the spider packs in Naxx. These are DPS numbers that don't matter, and really don't have any relevance. The only time they do is in situations like MAYBE Freya's adds, and even then the difference is negligible because 400 extra DPS over a whole twenty seconds is nice, but not exactly heartbreaking.
Paladin and warrior dps single-target is pretty close. I'd say within less than 400 of each other on our Uld 10 runs.
DecoyTPH Jul 16th 2009 9:43PM
You sir, are wrong.
A1CYancy Jul 16th 2009 9:49PM
While you do have a a bit of a point, let me clarify something for you. Single target DPS maybe close, but what you are missind is the AOE abilities ALL other tanks have. This is where you see the DPS difference. While you CAN see warrior tanks produce some higher DPS numbers, you rarely see any of the other tanks that DON'T produce the numbers.
If Pally tanks have ability WXY&Z and Warriors have ability Y&Z, the two are not balanced. Where once it was justified because a pally tank could produce more DPS they also lacked the threat a warrior could produce. When threat became fairly easy to keep and pallies got a taunt like the warriors taunt, it was no longer balanced.
The only way to fix this is to either homogonize them further or give them back their specialization.
To homogonize the two would require the pally tanks to lose their AOE abilities or to greatly lessen the damage output of these abilities. The other option would be to turn shockwave into an AOE DoT effect, up the DPS of cleave and devastate.
To return the specialization they would have to mess with threat gen as a whole. THey'd need to pull the taunt from pallies and make shockwave a single target ability.
I don't agree with either of these extremes but would like to see Warrior DPS go up and threat to recieve a bit of a face lift.
Angus Jul 16th 2009 10:27PM
I was regularly about 1800 compared to 1200 for a warrior on the same boss/position.
On AE packs I go to around 3K and he sits at 1500.
If every tank is supposed to have the tools needed to do the job. I'd like them to have equal tools with different mechanics.
Warrior tanks need a bleed put on mobs when hit with specials. The effect will be like the tankadin tanking seal. Add this to some tweaks on how much damage the mobs take from specials and you might get closer. It also gets benefits from bleed increases and gives a bleed so that others benefit. Win/win for utility.
Angus Jul 16th 2009 10:22PM
"(there's a reason Paladin tanks are still the kings of AoE tanking - take a paladin tank to Emalon and give him the adds to tank and his DPS will rival some of the actual DPS players, despite what Ghostcrawler has said above about not wanting tanks to do as much DPS as DPS specs)"
some? ;)
I was third on DPS and 2nd on actual damage last time I was there doing that. I did as much as the bottom 2 dps combined.
I have seen bears and DKs do almost as much in that same spot.
I'd love to see warriors there and doing the same. I'm sad out Warrior MT switched to a healer because his threat was so bad compared to me and he didn't want to hold back the raid. He's the only warrior I know that could actually hold threat against me for any real period of time.
GIVE WARRIORS MORE DPS!!!!!
Rune Jul 16th 2009 11:19PM
As much replying to the original topic as the quote.....but anyway doing high dps at the paladin tank on emalon adds is simply irresponsible and stupid, very stupid.
The major add is nuked fast anyway so dps the tank does on it doesnt make any difference, as the paladin tank of my guilds regular voa run, I can kill extra adds just from my full aoe and full on dps by halfway through or earlier, which would force me to have to pick up an extra 3/4 new adds through the encounter risking them being loose at a bad time. If you know some paladin tank who does that they are dps meter whores and better not grouped with.
All the normal aggro goes on the main boss, so a good tank will push quick aoe to have a nice threat lead and then single dps on the new add each time to put another threat lead on, and otherwise just keep up the defensive abilities.
Angus Jul 17th 2009 8:31AM
My normal threat moves KILL the adds anyway, it is not going to matter.
Holy Shield and consecration need to always be up. If you aren't using them you are taking more damage and the healers may have aggro issues on adds if you just sit there with autoattack on. SoV is ticking away on every mob most likely thanks to the new add eating a HotR. If you aren't judging you are taking 20% more damage from one of the adds, so you judge 2 of them at a time and lower the healing needed.
The moment an add is overcharged you go into full threat mode. That means finding him, hitting him with judgement and then ShoR, and doing the full rotation. Anything less and the insane DPS coming in to kill him will pull aggro. So the entire group just ate a HotR, consecrate and is hitting the HS charges.
I've done it plenty. Nothing you do is going to stop new adds from showing up. Paladin AoE is automatic and so pervasive you can't manage not to kill an add just from how you have to fight. I've tried doing it with no moves except the occasional judgement and holy shield. The adds still died simply from when someone got overcharged and the splash damage murdered one.
O-bot Jul 16th 2009 10:42PM
While I agree with your assessment of the class, it is wholly accurate. I feel it all stands from the point of me compared to other classes. While the fact is, as a warrior tank, there isn't a single encounter which I cannot tank for. Is it more challenging than other tanks? Yes. But that's the fun of the game. Why does it matter whether your dps number is 1500 or 2000 or 2500? In a rare few encounters (uld hard modes) is that even relevant. What matters is completing the encounter, beating the boss or gaining the achievement.
It seems the player base gets fueled with rage when their class is not the best at numbers, even though they can still get the job done. With that in mind how can developers ever balance anything? With that mind set the only solution is to unify all classes, because it is physically impossible to wholly balance classes if people compare them to each other instead of to completing the task at hand.
ohsnap Jul 17th 2009 12:21AM
you are 100% correct same thing i been saying over and over again on each tank QQ here as you will read on the next page of forum gibberish
A1CYancy Jul 17th 2009 1:38AM
You are right. Warriors are decent class when not comparing them to other classes. But this is an MMO, a multiplayer game. Comparing warriors to other classes is very important because raid leaders, guild leaders, and PvP team leaders ARE comparing warriors to the other classes in the game. Yes, wars are awesome at single target threat but the truth is, it doesn't matter. Threat can be maintained by all tanks in the game right now. What DOES matter to guild, raid, and PvP team leaders is the numbers a class can produce. Sure warriors could tank anything but the more DPS generally the faster a boss crashes. In a perfect raid world, a leader would invite whoever wanted to come and if it didn't work, no big deal. BUT what leaders want is a solid group that can destroy a boss quickly or with the most achievements.
Warriors are not those tanks.
freeway8989 Jul 17th 2009 2:16AM
Ok, people need to relax. I have yet to find a raid group where people are that anal about things. The general attitude is if you can do the job, you're in. Furthermore, warrior tanks can tank anything, even hard modes. The only difference becomes an issue of how quickly you can end an encounter (which is not that much of a difference to begin with. It's only a theoretical problem).
I know plenty of warrior tanks who are both raid leaders and great tanks. I honestly just see a bunch of QQ here rather than legitimate complaints.
Very few groups are gonna enlist a warrior tank who knows his shit only to drop him later if a DK tank offers to join.
"Hey , I know you want to tank this raid, but the thing is, despite the fact that you CAN tank this, a DK tank offered. And--how can I put this in a way that won't offend you--his DPS is slightly better than yours. It'll shave off a minute of our raid time."
Is it balanced? Not perfectly...but in the same way that one suitcase has 5% less volume than another one. They both get the job done just as well.
Wyred Jul 17th 2009 6:18AM
You're wrong Freeway. Guilds will have multiple tanks, usually of different specs, and if one proves to be particularly effective, the raid will use them to tank an encounter. Warriors can't match other tanks, currently the only thing they have going for them is 2 cd's to paladins 1, and that's changing in 3.2. They are often not picked for hard-mode encounters, and have a harder time at lower lvl encounters. This also feeds into recruitment. Capable of tanking all encounters? Depends on how you measure it. If a guild is having a hard time with a particular boss, chances are an equally geared DK would do better and give them the chance to down it. This is why many warrior tanks feel like they're banging their heads against a wall. Harder to play and less effective isn't 'challenging', it's bad.
Redd Jul 17th 2009 1:34AM
Warrior DPS is NOT to low. In my guild the DPS war is right up there with a rogue and hunter.
You cant assume just because YOUR too low that its a class problem. There are many things to take into account. Group make up, your skill, others skill, boss etc.
If your running a 25 Uld and the boss has alot of HP and the rest of your dps aren't fantastic the boss will stay alive longer giving hunters more Kill shots in their rotation increasing overall dps for example.
I play a ret pally (along with hunter, priest and of course warrior). As a pally i can play as best the class can be played (admittedly so could a trained monkey) and only end up 6th or so in DPS / Damage. No matter the fight a Warrior can beat me, he may have to have 5x the skill to do so, but the point is he CAN.
Matthew Rossi Jul 16th 2009 11:24PM
"No matter the fight a Warrior can beat me, he may have to have 5x the skill to do so, but the point is he CAN."
...
So it's balanced if a warrior can match or exceed your numbers if he's got to be five times as good at DPSing as you to do so? Seriously?
Congratulations. You stumped me. I don't even know how a thinking human being COULD believe what you just typed.
As I said in the article, on fights that actually DO favor a warrior, I do fine. The problem is, most fights in Ulduar do not.
dom_wynn Jul 17th 2009 8:46AM
@ Rossi -
"No matter the fight a Warrior can beat me, he may have to have 5x the skill to do so, but the point is he CAN."
...
So it's balanced if a warrior can match or exceed your numbers if he's got to be five times as good at DPSing as you to do so? Seriously?
Congratulations. You stumped me. I don't even know how a thinking human being COULD believe what you just typed.
------------
Congrats on straw man: that's not what he said: you elided the rather critical point where he noted that as a pally he would end up max pos 6 no matter how he played. He was suggesting that that limit isn't there with a warrior tho' the skill to hit pos 3 4 or 5 might eventually escalate to fiendish. Seems a perfectly reasonable remark: bar DKs and Hunters the L2p rule applies.
On a more general note to this discussion it would seem that the general response to every QA I have seen borders on QQ with a lot of comparisons between classes (why isn't my DPS/heal/threat management keeping up with x class? I'm in danger of not getting into raids!). I can't help feeling that there is a fundamental misunderstanding of how raids should operate and it revolves around that old chestnut - bring the player not the class.
So what if hunter DPS is maybe off by a few hundred or two from a DK or rogue? You can guarantee that if the player is skilled and/or knowledgable you'll be better off than inviting that facerolling DK scrub.
I know that I would rather have certain warriors as MT any day over certain in-guild pallys and that comes down to the fact that a) they play better b) they know the encounter and c) they're not going to freeze if the unpredictable happens.
A1CYancy Jul 17th 2009 1:52PM
@Dom
People ARE misunderstanding how raids work now. BC and Vanilla raids were DOMINATED by guilds. LK? not so much. Where you do have the strong guilds still mopping up the average raid, I see a disturbing amount of PuGs on my server. SUCCESSFUL PuGs. The truth of the matter is the game has moved away from the elitest theory of "guild or go home." WoW has tried to bring in more casual players with this expansion. With casual players, more PuG raids are formed.
That being said you are thinking in a GUILD mentality, but a lot of us are thinking of PuG mentality. The raid leader doesn't care if you know why blood elves are paladins or why there are orcs in Azeroth. All he/she cares about is how fast you can down a boss so people can get their gear and badges and move on.
Blizz should rename their new slogan "Bring players, not the class." The don't care about THE players just players in general. Bring the accounts, not the class. That may be appropriate. When you can pick any of the 4 tanks and all of them can tank a raid but 3 can do it easier or with significantly higher DPS, the fourth gets passed over a lot.
So maybe everyone in the game seems to have a wrong idea of raiding, but planning takes time outside of raids. I don't know about you, but I've only seen one PuG start up a day or two before they run it. So bliz isn't going to waste time on making a "guild only" raid that follows a "Traditional" raid mentality when they are trying to bring in all the casuals that they can. Raids are over glorified 5 mans now. Niche toons like warriors, are not surviving.