The Care and Feeding of Warriors: Where the Action is Not

Honestly, I'd like to rant more about how Warrior DPS is still way too low in PvE. Especially since I keep seeing posts on the forums from the blues telling me classes with equal or better DPS are in fact too low. It's sort of maddening, really. But as much as I'd like to go on a written rampage about encounter design serving as an arbitrary limiter to warrior DPS in Ulduar, and how paradoxically my DPS is at its best on fights that are supposed to be hard mode fights (this week, for instance, my personal highest DPS numbers were recorded on XT - 002's Heartbreaker mode, where two Warriors including myself finally managed to break the top four and were ahead of the other hybrids) due to the mechanics of those fights actually allowing the warrior some uninterrupted DPS time.
But unfortunately, a whole lot has been said about tanking this past week. So as maddening, vexing, downright baffling as I find the encounter design limitations of Warrior DPS in some cases (really, not much can irritate me like knowing my DPS time was broken up by big chunks of having to run away, run around, get out of the way of lightning or exploding seeds or any of the sixteen things Mimiron does that make me unhappy to be alive) that rant's going to have to stay confined to these opening paragraphs. (For a simulation of what I sound like during a raid, get four angry woodpeckers and have them attack your keyboard while you scream "Oh, COME ON" every few seconds and imagine you're the Gravity Bomb again.)
So what happened with tanking this week, you ask? Well, more was said about block, about avoidance, and about tanking specced players as DPS and in PvP. So let's go over what was said.
First off, let's talk about the avoidance changes. As I stated last week, I am aware that these changes will hit some classes harder than warrior tanks, who are one of two tanking classes that can use all three stats (Dodge, Block and Parry) so that they don't have to depend on any one of them. However, what I saw in the discussion that interested me was the following quote from Ghostcrawler.
- This is also not the big avoidance "come to Naaru" that some posters predicted. Overall, we think avoidance is too high and the game would work better with lower tank avoidance, but suddenly dropping everyone's avoidance by 20 or 30% would be a very big change with many ramifications for healing and gear among other things. It would also feel like a big nerf to the many players who didn't understand why it would be better for the game in the long term. But I still expect it is coming at some point.
We all remember Sunwell Radiance, which was put in purely because fully geared Druid tanks who'd been farming Hyjal and Black Temple were almost unstoppable by physical damage, they'd dodge almost everything a boss would throw at them. It was kludgy and inelegant and had the effect of punishing a tank for having made the reasonable assumption that he or she was supposed to use all of this gear that benefited him. If tweaking dodge downwards and parry upwards keeps this from happening again, or allows for an equilibrium in encounter design between avoidance (dodge and parry) and mitigation (block, armor, stamina) then that's fine. It has to take into account those thanks who can't use as broad a selection, of course, because at this point I'm frankly terrified for the future of the warrior class if warrior tanks become too popular. In the past few months the developers have shown a frank willingness to tour the warrior protection tree and its design far in excess of its actual performance in the game at the moment.
What I believe we need to see in encounter design is a more even distribution of damage that is lowered by our various mitigation options (returning Block to a place where it's actually a worthwhile stat) and the occasional big whack of damage that cooldowns and avoidance can be counted on to reduce. This has to be done without placing any one tanking class (not even Warriors, as much as I love them) on top of the totem pole, because if one class is clearly superior it will be chosen over other tanks, and then it will be nerfed. Furthermore, an avoidance heavy paradigm in tanking design actually goes against the core of the class as tanks. Warriors are supposed to be hit. Laying on the dodge so that you take as little damage as possible leads to rage generation that looks like a crazy amusement park ride, all dizzying highs and stomach lurching lows.
Now that we've talked about that, what about warrior tanks as DPS and in PvP?
- We want Prot warriors to do decent damage in PvE. We don't want them to do as good damage as actual dps specs -- there needs to be a trade-off for such high survivability. This means we need threat multipliers or you won't be able to actually hold aggro. It's okay if Shield Slam can make big (yet not absurd) numbers, since you don't Shield Slam all that much. That's fun. As I said above though, it would probably work better if Shield Slam hit hard because your Strength was high, not because you built a gimmicky set.
Yes, Warriors (and other classes to some extent) are always going to need threat multipliers, but we have to always remember that threat multipliers are never as compelling, lead to scaling issues (there's a reason Paladin tanks are still the kings of AoE tanking - take a paladin tank to Emalon and give him the adds to tank and his DPS will rival some of the actual DPS players, despite what Ghostcrawler has said above about not wanting tanks to do as much DPS as DPS specs) and in general lead to the sensation of 'overgearing the instance' which keeps being brought up, when you can't hold initial aggro unless everyone stands around doing nothing for a few seconds because the mobs don't hit the warrior tank hard enough for him to generate any rage to get threat in the first place.
In general I find this idea that warrior tanks are asking for (or even want) to do as much DPS as pure DPS specs, or even hybrids specced to DPS, to be kind of absurd. We just don't want to be the lowest DPS of the tanks. At present, there's absolutely no danger of a tanking warrior doing as much DPS as any other tanking class, especially when not tanking. If you have three tanks in a fight, and one of them is a Warrior, he'll be by far the bottom of the barrel. (My fresh 80 DK tank, who has only been gearing up for a week or so, can do as much damage as a tank spec as my Ulduar geared warrior - all hail Howling Blast.) This is not just important for hard modes where you need to squeeze as much DPS as possible from an encounter and therefore will always choose tanks who do more DPS while tanking, it's also important because of the impact seeing other tanks put out twice to three times as much DPS has on the fun factor for warrior tanks. There's nothing fun about feeling like last year's model.
In short (too late) it's not that I even object to what's being said so much as I find the lack of motion for the warrior class perplexing. Warriors as tanks are the twitchiest, require the most effort to tank well with (I do not recommend you roll a DK for tanking if you want to continue to enjoy warrior tanking) and while they have a very nice assortment of skills and talents they're still at the absolute bottom of the totem pole for DPS while tanking. No matter what anyone says, a Prot Warrior who will not be tanking for a particular fight is of much greater utility to the raid if he uses Dual Talent Specialization and goes Arms or Fury than he will be trying to pump out damage in his tank spec. It's simply not tenable.
Next week, hopefully I get to have that rant about encounter design and DPS warriors.
Filed under: Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, News items, Instances, Raiding, Bosses, Buffs, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors, Forums
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 5)
Michael Jul 16th 2009 11:58PM
Matthew said : "Rather than buffing block value at all, remove the stat from all gear."
But Matthew, that would mean that items that currently have block value would all of a sudden be valued by death knights and bears. Blizzard wants lots of classes to use the same gear. Oh wait Blizzard - this solves two of your problems. Reduces extra itemization and 'fixes block'.
Great idea, Matthew. Now just sell it to Blizzard.
Michael Jul 17th 2009 12:01AM
Yuck. That was supposed to sound sarcastic and pithy. Sounds more like I'm confused. My point was that this was an awesome idea and bears and death knights don't have to go "yuck, block rating" and can say "yay strength" instead. Which reduces the number of items they have to make / place on bosses. And that's something that Blizzard says they want.
Wish I could edit...
sunas Jul 17th 2009 12:08AM
why all the QQ? war are kings at tanking melee bosses....
i often see complaints about dmg output when you take the LEAST dmg intake and yes i have several tanks a pally war and dk all in uld gear.
so its a trade off be the kings at tanking melee targets for doing less dmg......
i take my dk for magic fights the war for melee and pally raid utility. each class has a place they are more apt to shine over others but can still do all task and this is not for just tanking it wow as altogether and thats how it should be. what most ppl i see asking for if its done is you will have either only 1 class in game taht does all 3 things of the holy trinity OR you will have many classes taht all do the same thing and in this case the stats for gear would be more like + dmg, -dmg intake..... that way you would do more spell or melee output or simply just negate more dmg. and that system would be fail so thats why i wonder why ppl state what they do.....
so yeah the class is fine were it is really in all 3 specs. if your rage starved stack more armor pen and haste then ya get dmg+rage. most war i see that QQ about rage have none or very small amounts of these stats. white dmg = rage....need rage get more white dmg.
Sqtsquish Jul 17th 2009 12:47AM
I'm sorry but as he mentioned....we have to gear for survivability to be viable at all (ie damage mitigation/avoidance/health) and frankly until Blizz makes it so we can take a hit without worrying about the huge spike damage we will continue doing so. Whether you choose to believe it or not when a raid leader chooses a tank the first thing he considers is survivability not whether the enhance shamans can have fun critting the boss's face off and the tank still hold threat. Perfectly honest I have 4 80s and if I try I can easily aggro over any tank of a similar gear level- it isn't their fault if I do, if I aggro it is my fault as a dps for being a moron in 99% of the time. The reason we warriors want to create more threat is to give the dps a higher margin for error and to kill the boss before someone does something dumb and wipes the group. The reason we want more survivabilty is so we can again do the aforementioned task- have more room with enchants and gems to gear for more damage so we can create more threat. So all in all if blizzard wants us to gear more for dps when we tank then they should modify boss damage to a point where it takes less "survivability" gear to get the job done....that or actually fix tank mechanics for a change.
ohsnap Jul 17th 2009 1:29AM
how can you NOT have enough threat. for real L2 tank? ironically my war does the MOST threat and is the least squishy. and before ya complain about cd he11 or gcd he11 then you must be on a pally instead....
Sqtsquish Jul 17th 2009 12:49PM
Sorta missing the point, I may do slightly more threat on a single target boss than say a dk but the way that class's mechanics and stats run, even equally geared they have more survivability than me----which is the very first thing a raid leader worries about and secondly if I gear to have more survivability I lose out on threat by a large enough margin that the dk will win out overall once again. What I am saying is in order to tank with similar threat AND avoidance to a dk I have to have superior gear than they do- not to mention their ability to chain cds almost infinitely to weather spike damage is something a healer would prefer to the roller coaster of damage we take (I just feel bad for druids who have that particular position wore than we do)
ohsnap Jul 17th 2009 12:24AM
lol then the QQ will be even more so that other classes do more dmg since they will have more str....fail
ohsnap Jul 17th 2009 12:29AM
oh yeah before i forget all that sunder armor you guys lay out there ups the dps of the other tanks so taht adds to there dmg output also kthnxbai
Relppats Jul 17th 2009 12:42AM
I can't really vouch for the other tanking classes but I for one have enjoyed tanking as a warrior in its current format. Why? Because you do have to think on your feet and adapt to the situation as the pull plays out sometimes. Lose and add? Taunt him back. Caster? Heroic Throw or Shield Bash him. It gives the fight more flavor and more challenge which I find enjoyable.
Also I think what people tend to forget is a warrior tank has to rely on the abilities of his teammates to be effective as well. Remember CC? Sheep, Ice traps and all those other CC abilities it seems like hardly anyone uses anymore.
Finally, mark the kill targets people! And DPS follow those targets! Skull and X at the very least. Us warriors can't AoE tank as well so help us help you. Going from one target to the next helps us keep aggro and will make things a lot easier on both you and your tank.
Happy Hunting!
Drache Jul 17th 2009 2:27PM
And that's part of the issue. Nobody wants to worry about a kill-order anymore. Everybody wants speed runs, no CC, all AoE, and since 3 out of 4 classes can build AE threat well, marking is frowned upon. Warriors can't front-load AE threat all that well, and explaining to others to hold back for 5 seconds doesn't work.
AE threat is what wins at the moment. VoA: me and a bear, the bear basically tanks all the trash minus one-1. I tried my darndest to get a 2nd mob to stick on me, but the druid had it back in no time flat.
If you look at it, what do groups wipe on? Trash. Yes, it's sad and sorry, but the deaths and all that happen because of trash, not the bosses. Even if we're great on single-boss fights, have actually impressive mobility if/when required, and several "Oh-Sh*t buttons," the overall utility of *all* the other tanking classes doesn't make warriors the "tank of choice".
Heck, it gets worse if we want to tank lower content (non-heroics, BC raids, etc). I don't get rage, I *can't* build threat, because stuff doesn't hit me hard enough. Of course I could carry yet another tanking set (next to my EH, Avoidance, Threat sets) to address that, but why again am I the only class who has to do that?
Don't get me wrong, I like tanking on the warrior when I get a group of decent people who know a bit about mechanics together. But boy, finding those is quite time consuming.
Back to leveling my Pally, just to be able to try it out :)
ohsnap Jul 17th 2009 5:06PM
for lower content i just equiped another weapon instead of a shield :P
bigsampson Jul 17th 2009 1:24AM
ah man i love my warrior....i dont care what they do.....it is me...i am warrior....charge..and go to work....hey we all know i cant compete with the aoe tanks out there but when u really need a tank that can survive....holler at me the dwarve warrior baby!
Redd Jul 17th 2009 1:35AM
My point is in regards to a pally. They're to easy to play and this is being addressed somewhat in 3.2
Let me put it this way for you
Of course you're going to loose to casters on council or the general. If you had every fight in your favor then a raid would consist of 2-3 tanks 5-6 healers and the rest of that single class.
What I'm trying to say is on our runs our dps warrior was up the top 3 on almost every fight, except ones designed to give a specific type of dps an advantage. Not a bad place to be for a 'hybrid'
doo Jul 17th 2009 1:45AM
i would love a bliz developer who plays a warrior to comment on things... GC sounds un informed when he talks about warriors...
are they just running simulations or are they actually playing?
prot dps (even single target) is horrid unless running a UA builld
PickyPants Jul 17th 2009 12:52PM
I would like to hear Matthew comment on the UA build.
While completely losing most of our avoidance/mitigation, putting up those gigantic numbers seems pretty amusing.
Especially with the incoming 3.2 heroic badge changes, wouldn't a UA build be incredibly useful for heroic conquest grinding? Or is it really a one-trick patchwork dps pony?
jam Jul 17th 2009 4:56AM
"...take a paladin tank to Emalon and give him the adds to tank and his DPS will rival some of the actual DPS players, despite what Ghostcrawler has said above about not wanting tanks to do as much DPS as DPS specs)"
Well, duh, of course it will, since that paladin tank is damaging multiple mobs at the same time. Why do you even mention something like that, I'm sure Ghostcrawler wasn't talking about aoe tanking.
Random Jul 17th 2009 5:09AM
Good call on how to fix block... that approach would even allow those tanks that can't currently use block to have an effective blocking mechanic, if necessary. A little too much homogenizing for me, but the option would be there.
If your hopes regarding encounter design are realized in terms of steadier damage taken, that'll also go a long way towards fixing the feast/famine that is prot warrior rage generation. Frankly, I don't want to see rage generated all on dps... that's boring. I like the concept of the warrior getting hit, getting mad, and giving a beatdown. It makes good sense for a tank, and especially a warrior tank. And the "cool" factor is undeniable... "Hit me again. I dare you."
The 3.2 changes to tanks seem to be indicating a slow move towards this kind of fight... but a more telling set of changes are the changes to tank healing specs in 3.2. Holy paladins are getting pushed towards more FoL, using HL only if the tank fails to avoid/mitigate that occasional big hit by using cds . And the penance nerf for Disc priests is an obvious attempt to get disc priests to be less reliant on constantly having massive burst heals available, pushing them towards steadier forms of healing/prevention.
Steikfrit Jul 17th 2009 5:37AM
Strange to read your comments.
I play a druid. I have MT all Ulduar 10 and 25 bosses.
We have a warrior tank, myself as druid. We also have a DK.
So in Raid we have almost every tank available (we don't see the paladin tank that much)
When we started doing Ulduar, I was the tank of choice. Not because I would be better for fights but because with Naxx25 stuff, I was able to be kept alive, where the warrior tank could not because either he would require too much healer mana, or die so fast the healers could not compensate. Now, with stuff having come to me (I got all T8 pieces) and the warrior, the warrior can handle every boss in 10 and 25 modes. But a difference remains: the Hard Modes. While the warrior is able to tank in 10-HM, in 25-HM I am often used. For fights like Vezax but it's not really because the warrior would not handle it : it's because interrupts are required. As a druid, I can interrupt once per minute, no more. So the warrior, that would like to tank Vezax, is used in combination with a Thief to do the interrupts on the boss... So the warrior is not tanking Vezax-25 or in Hard Modes because.. of my lack of interrupt, and because you can only have so many tanks in a Roster for a raid, the warrior gets the interrupt role. And I know he would like to tank Vezax too...
On some Hard Modes, the warrior has trouble. And I don't know if it's really because I can take it he can't. In fact, I believe it to be false. I believe that my healers have spent too much time with me, a druid, as MT when gearing up the raid, and they are used to how I take damage : I avoid a LOT of hits, and I take one, sometimes two bigs hits they have to heal. The warrior takes much more its, and it's really spikey: small, big, small, big, big... so it's more stressful.
When I check our values, they're quite close. The DK has more hit points than I do. I got about 47K almost 48K full buff, and the warrior too. I got around 30K armor, and my total avoidance is smaller than the warrior's one (I only got dodge, the druid shield only blocks about 1.8K, but I have a 90 to 99 % proc rate because of my lacerate crits so each time the druid shield can be up, I have over 90 % probability it will be).
Since I am almost full Ulduar-25 geared, I have removed some agility to beef up stamina, and I also increased hit rating and expertise (none of my hits can be dodge, and I got around 0.1 % mitigate).
But I do think the warrior can tank anything I can tank. It's just that it's easier for healers. Last time we did Vezax 25 (in normal mode) I was not even kitting around while the boss did enrage. I just aggro the boss, and tank/spank the boss until he dies. I _never_ move. I take the enrages of the boss and the healer was saying that for the last 30 seconds, and the full duration of the enrage, I did not take even a single hit (I used the +30 % life and the Heart of Iron) and that he was going to AFK to do a coffee while the enrage was going on. The warrior would have been able to tank the boss, without kitting, and taking the enrage, but the healers would have been under more stress. And I think that because of the difference in warrior/druid mechanics, it's less stress when it's a druid than a warrior.
Because most of you play warriors, you think Blizzard is not really concerned or taking good care of the warrior as tank. But the grass is always greener at the neighbour's. I do think the warrior is a very interesting tank. So much that I have started levelling a warrior as tank that I intend to use as main character once 80 and properly geared rather than my druid. The druid has a lot of problems but I know them because I've been playing it for years and I still got the BC and Sunwell nerf bat scars all over. I remember spending 3 sometimes 4 hours in Shattrah looking for a group and no one would accept to use me, a Druid tank, for any heroic. I saw people look for tanks for hours, while I was there with other Druid tanks, and they only wanted warriors tank and nothing else... Sometimes I did connect for a full week, and watched films on the laptop while LFG for heroics in Shattrah. Things have changed now and for the better. But I really think I would like a warrior as main, and tank. And that I would be able to tank anything I tank right now even hard modes where sometimes, I'm prefered as druid.
The warrior should be on the top but not too much. Because when this happens, no one will let a DK, or Druid or Paladin tank in raids, except as OT. The warrior would be the ever default tank for any boss in Raids. Before WOTLK that was my daily life in Wow. Always OT. Never MT. Because there was a warrior in the Raid and "I could morph to cat while the warrior as tank has no DPS at all". I do not want to go back to a world where I want to tank, and I'm always OT and never allowed to MT anything just because the warrior would have nothing to do...
I almost gave up tanking because the forever OT spot was not what I wanted. And warriors I talked about it did not really care. They have the MT badge and would not yield it down for any fight or let me try.
Warriors, Druids, DK, Paladins as tanks should be interchangeable. Some would require more heals but smaller ones (warriors) and others would require less heals but bigger ones (druids) so the difference should be on how you heal them but not end up in situatino where boss X is tanked by class Y and only Y while boss Z is tankied by class W and only W. Or a situation like pre-WOTLK where every damn boss would be tanked by the warrior, and then you would distribute OT roles to the other tanks, that spend as much time TheoryCrafting and optimizing their stuff and never allowed to MT anything. No thanks.
Naix Jul 17th 2009 10:28AM
"The warrior should be on the top but not too much."
Umm no. No class should be "best tank" in game. Then everyone would only want that tank. So you have to make every tank preform as good as the next. Its the person behind the keyboard that makes the best tank not the class.
Sqtsquish Jul 17th 2009 4:34PM
The key is everyone would prefer a dk or a pally tank all other things the same